Det som går ned må komme opp-An Alternate Royal Norwegian Navy TL

[CV(N)-6]

If Fall Gelb has the same outcome as OTL, Hitler is going to wish he had some Uboats and surface raiders. Too bad the Kriegsmarine has been reduced to nothing by Norwegian/ British victories and Hitler's idiotic decision to abandon all shipbuilding.

He'll have some U-Boats, and the resources from not building/operating new ships could help either defend Germany if Fall Gelb fails or contribute to Barbarossa

If the Allies can retake southern Norway, it would severely hamper the Nazis. Much of their iron is imported from Sweden, which is shipped to them from Norwegian ports. If they can stop or reduce the flow of iron ore from Sweden, german industry is going to face a shortage. Tanks and planes need their steel after all.

I'm not sure when the ice comes off the northern end of the Bay of Bothnia - mid May?, so there won't be much interruption of the Swedish ore shipments for the warm weather months. Also, IF the Germans overrun the Belgian and French iron ore regions, that reduces their overall risk too.

They can still get Swedish ore in the ice free months assuming Churchill doesn't dream anything up, and as Driftless says, if they win in May, they'll get plenty of ore. If.

I mostly lurk, but wanted to say that I like your timeline so far a lot.

Thank you! I'm glad you like it!

 

[Admiral Spaun]

He'll have some U-Boats, and the resources from not building/operating new ships could help either defend Germany if Fall Gelb fails or contribute to Barbarossa

20 U-boats a year won't be enough to compensate for losses to ASW. Eventually Germany will have no operational boats left unless they increase construction.

Those resources can't compete with the huge advantage Britain will have if they don't have to fight the Battle of the Atlantic. The U-boats peaking in 1940 saves the British hundreds of thousands in merchant tonnage as well as all of the equipment, materials, and food that went down with them.

 

[Driftless]

20 U-boats a year won't be enough to compensate for losses to ASW. Eventually Germany will have no operational boats left unless they increase construction.

Those resources can't compete with the huge advantage Britain will have if they don't have to fight the Battle of the Atlantic. The U-boats peaking in 1940 saves the British hundreds of thousands in merchant tonnage as well as all of the equipment, materials, and food that went down with them.

And the knock-on benefits for battles that were historically fought in North Africa, the Eastern Med, and Asia as well.

 

[CV(N)-6]

20 U-boats a year won't be enough to compensate for losses to ASW. Eventually Germany will have no operational boats left unless they increase construction.

Those resources can't compete with the huge advantage Britain will have if they don't have to fight the Battle of the Atlantic. The U-boats peaking in 1940 saves the British hundreds of thousands in merchant tonnage as well as all of the equipment, materials, and food that went down with them.

And the knock-on benefits for battles that were historically fought in North Africa, the Eastern Med, and Asia as well.

The U-Boat decision will certainly have knock-on effects in the war, it was a very Hitler-esque decision (the U-Boats haven't done crap in the story, and Prien is now spending the war in a prison camp), mainly because he is furious with the Kriegsmarine.

 

[scretchy]

Reports also showed that the typical convoy was escorted by a pair of Type 35 or 37 torpedo boats, armed with just one 10.5cm gun and 6 torpedoes

Germany is really scraping the barrel there. There were only three Type 35 commisioned at that point and they were working on boiler problems and some other stuff as well. They didnt really get to work until later in the year. The Type 37 didnt commision the first until 1941.

 

[Patg_hnj]

The Germans could increase the shipments in the navigation season and also ship via rail to southern Sweden but less convenient

 

[jsb]

They can still get Swedish ore in the ice free months assuming Churchill doesn't dream anything up,

I think its almost certain that RAF would get involved mining the Baltic, its far easier with Norwegian airfield even if you have to pretend to respect Swedish neutrality they can easily send bombers at night to randomly drop mines via the southern tip of Sweden. I dont think the Swedes will privately mind to much if a few end up coming back via her territory or accidentally land in Sweden and get interned (followed by immediately being sold for service in Swedish air force and many of the crews escaping to Norway) as GB will be buying anything it can via the north and mines will also prevent invasion of Sweden.
This likely seriously hurts U boat/navy training as well....

 

[CV(N)-6]

I think its almost certain that RAF would get involved mining the Baltic, its far easier with Norwegian airfield even if you have to pretend to respect Swedish neutrality they can easily send bombers at night to randomly drop mines via the southern tip of Sweden. I dont think the Swedes will privately mind to much if a few end up coming back via her territory or accidentally land in Sweden and get interned (followed by immediately being sold for service in Swedish air force and many of the crews escaping to Norway) as GB will be buying anything it can via the north and mines will also prevent invasion of Sweden.
This likely seriously hurts U boat/navy training as well....

True. The only thing I would say is Bergen is a fair bit away (it's in range from napkin math), but the aircraft do have to fly over some mountains and near German-occupied Norway, and Kristiansand's airfield has Me 109's based there as OTL, which could prove to be a pain. Oslo's two airfields are currently 100% occupied with stopping bombing raids and flying ground support missions, they'll be hard pressed to also service aircraft laying mines at the moment.

 

[jsb]

True. The only thing I would say is Bergen is a fair bit away (it's in range from napkin math), but the aircraft do have to fly over some mountains and near German-occupied Norway, and Kristiansand's airfield has Me 109's based there as OTL, which could prove to be a pain. Oslo's two airfields are currently 100% occupied with stopping bombing raids and flying ground support missions, they'll be hard pressed to also service aircraft laying mines at the moment.

I was more thinking post the liberation of the south say in late 40/41, post FoF (if it doesn't fall the the war is going to be much shorter and everything else is really irrelevant) once they are behind the seas and WC needs to do something.

(add that I think the south will be liberated fast in a couple of months at most or Norway will fall anyway, GB can win at sea/air not really on land post FoF, by late 40/41 I mean once RAF gets bored and has "spare" bombers it can send nigh gardening)

 

[Wobbly Whirlwind]

Seems like the Norwegians are doing quite well against their German counterparts, even in surface to surface engagements. I wonder if Norway is going to pull itself through this entire thing or now, would be something to see a WWII Germany without their holdings there.

 

[Driftless]

At this point, Neville Chamberlain is still PM and Churchill is First Lord of the Admiralty? With the results, (so far) of the Norwegian Campaign being much more favorable, those two gentlemen likely remain in their positions - at least for the next month or two. How any Battle of France and the Low Countries shapes up may impact their status, but that's still on the horizon.

Chamberlain wasn't a very scintillating orator, so comments from him regarding the Campaign are likely pretty dry. However, I could envision MP Churchill standing up in the House of Commons and laying on some stirring reference to Hitler learning to "Beware of the fury of the Northmen"

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

"We have a bloodline with these Norsemen, these successors of Vikings, that goes back to the days of Alfred the Great. Indomitable in battle, uncrushable in will. Their dragon boats have cleansed the Skagerrak & Kattegat of Hitler's filth..."

 

[CV(N)-6]

I was more thinking post the liberation of the south say in late 40/41, post FoF (if it doesn't fall the the war is going to be much sorter and everything else is really irrelevant) once they are behind the seas and WC needs to do something.

(add that I think the south will be liberated fast in a couple of months at most or Norway will fall anyway, GB can win at sea/air not really on land post FoF, by late 40/41 I mean once RAF gets bored and has "spare" bombers it can send nigh gardening)

Yes, that would be a logical move in the near future.

Seems like the Norwegians are doing quite well against their German counterparts, even in surface to surface engagements. I wonder if Norway is going to pull itself through this entire thing or now, would be something to see a WWII Germany without their holdings there.

Time will tell. The Norwegian destroyers have solidly trained crews, which turned out to be a good investment.

At this point, Neville Chamberlain is still PM and Churchill is First Lord of the Admiralty? With the results, (so far) of the Norwegian Campaign being much more favorable, those two gentlemen likely remain in their positions - at least for the next month or two. How any Battle of France and the Low Countries shapes up may impact their status, but that's still on the horizon.

Chamberlain wasn't a very scintillating orator, so comments from him regarding the Campaign are likely pretty dry. However, I could envision MP Churchill standing up in the House of Commons and laying on some stirring reference to Hitler learning to "Beware of the fury of the Northmen"

I'm honestly still up in the air as to the PM situation, though events in France will certainly contribute.

 

[Viper91]

The Germans didn't have a lot of major shipping OTL. Combined with this loss, where are they still finding anything afloat?

 

[Driftless]

The Germans didn't have a lot of major shipping OTL. Combined with this loss, where are they still finding anything afloat?

Boosted by confiscated ships of the Poles and Danes?

 

[Angry_scottsman_1989]

Have to say this has been a very enjoyable timeline, always good to see the Nazis getting taken down a peg in such a believable manner

 

[formion]

Boosted by confiscated ships of the Poles and Danes?

All the polish ships by September 1939 were either safe in Allied hands or scuttled in Gdynia.

 

[CV(N)-6]

Boosted by confiscated ships of the Poles and Danes?

All the polish ships by September 1939 were either safe in Allied hands or scuttled in Gdynia.

The Germans didn't have a lot of major shipping OTL. Combined with this loss, where are they still finding anything afloat?

It's still only 20 April, they are taking proportionally large shipping losses and the Ju 52's used for air supply are slowly being pulled out for Fall Gelb, and we haven't talked about the land situation much yet. Also note, the Oslo route is much safer because of the extra distance from Allied positions and air cover from Aalborg.

 

[jsb]

At this point, Neville Chamberlain is still PM and Churchill is First Lord of the Admiralty? With the results, (so far) of the Norwegian Campaign being much more favorable, those two gentlemen likely remain in their positions - at least for the next month or two. How any Battle of France and the Low Countries shapes up may impact their status, but that's still on the horizon.

With Chamberlain dying Churchill is if anything more likly to be selected with such a good Norway only helping his/RNs image?

 

[Driftless]

With Chamberlain dying Churchill is if anything more likly to be selected with such a good Norway only helping his/RNs image?

Good point. I've always marvelled that Churchill's pre-war staunch warnings about the Nazi's and against appeasement overmatched the discombobulated historic Norway Campaign. Even in Churchill's own words, he described it as a "ramshackle campaign". Here, the British in general look good and especially the RN, so Churchill will rise.

How soon? Chamberlain went in for abdominal surgery in July 1940 and went downhill fast, passing away Nov 9, 1940