DBWI: Screw American-Vietnamese relations

[Kotka]

Since the start of the Cold War, Vietnam has been one of the United States' closest allies in Southeast Asia. This is remarkable in that it was probably the only communist nation friendly to the West, including France its former colonizer.

How could we make Vietnam another communist nation hostile to the United States?

 

[CountDVB]

Well, a large part came from the Americans being intelligent. After the Red Scare debacle led to a lot of political scandals, the US leadership had people who preferred a pragmatic approach with the Reds. Namely more than a few people realized that cultural geopolitics was in play and to examine the why. The loss of Korea also played a factor to at least do something.

Hence why the US talked things with Ho Chi Minh and there was a system arranged to at least show cordial relations that became friendlier over time. It helped that US forces helped deal with the maniacs of Pol Pot and the others China failed to do. Korea did all right for a fair bit with China, but tensions always remained highish due to the history. Vietnam meanwhile eventually did rise up more and their system did help social policies in the US.

My guess would be that if more hotheads or warhawks went into power. we'd end up with some sort of pointless Vietnam War... so basically something that replaces OTL's Cuban War. That debacle was a mess and would expose the Americans' attempt to screw with South American nations (Operation Vulture I think it was called...?)

 

[Deleted member 109224]

Well, they've always only been kind of sort of communist. Half of the "Communism" that the government pursued was just the screwing over of the landed classes that we saw in Taiwan and US-Occupied Japan OTL. It was more nationalism with a socialist and anti-gentry flare than outright Communist. The US base in Cam Ranh Bay and the formation of Special Economic Zones in Cam Ranh, Phu Quoc, and Guangzhouwan (which France ceded to Vietnam) also built the relationship up well.

Truman responding to the Proclamation of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam by telling the French that they'd be allowed to have Saar, Aosta, and Elba if they gave up Indochina set the stage for the anti-Soviet pro-western Socialist regimes. Vietnam was the first, but its geopolitical example paved the way towards the de facto entry of Yugoslavia into NATO.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

President Goldwater nukes their population centers.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Maybe Diem doesn't accept Ho's offer to join the Viet Minh?* The little man from Hue was pretty instrumental in turning the powerful Kennedy family into Vietophiles.

*OOC: yes, that offer was indeed made and rejected in 1946

 

[Tsochar]

Not pulling out of the South would probably accomplish that pretty well. The problem is, how can the US avoid caving to the domestic political pressure that led to that decision?

 

[CountDVB]

Not pulling out of the South would probably accomplish that pretty well. The problem is, how can the US avoid caving to the domestic political pressure that led to that decision?

Basically through jingoism. Honestly, I’m pretty sure we only dodged that gluttonous toxic thing through dumb luck here.

The Red Scare (okay, the Second One) did change the view of the Cold War, being less on capitalism vs communism and more toward liberty vs autocracy.

 

[thekingsguard]

Have Ho be less of an open fanboy of the USA and George Washington? That certainly helped smooth over a lot of ruffled feathers, having a socialist who worshiped the Founding Fathers rather than Marx and Lenin.

 

[Mister Abbadon]

Removing the specter of Cuba and Korea would go a long way. Without two huge military boondoggles laying heavily on the public conciousness people would probably be more Gung Ho for finding a punching bag. If The US wasn't involved in either conflict or actually managed to win it would probably mean they'd be more likely to look for another convenient Second World backwater to fuck up.


Uncle Ho being influenced by the kind of Revolutionaires the US government likes and the argument that he wasn't a communist so much as a nationalist who wanted free healthcare and no land owning elite certainly helped but the American public being weary of war is what made sure negotiations happened.

 

[Help]

Maybe we would avoid the Communist movement in Germany?

 

[okmangeez]

Maybe we would avoid the Communist movement in Germany?

To be fair, that Communist movement didn’t get very far once it was clear that it had heavy Soviet support. The reason why Vietnam managed to establish good ties with the US was because it distanced itself from Moscow and Beijing.

 

[Help]

To be fair, that Communist movement didn’t get very far once it was clear that it had heavy Soviet support. The reason why Vietnam managed to establish good ties with the US was because it distances itself from Moscow and Beijing.

Wait, really? I though it had to do with the Saar issue, which I think was mentioned upthread.

 

[okmangeez]

Wait, really? I though it had to do with the Saar issue, which I think was mentioned upthread.

Well, Saar was one of the rallying cries the German communists used to attract a following. However, this was mainly pushed by the Soviets to distance Germany from the West and to cause tensions between Germany and France. Once that was revealed, the German communist movement lost a lot of steam.

 

[Help]

Well, Saar was one of the rallying cries the German communists used to attract a following. However, this was mainly pushed by the Soviets to distance Germany from the West and to cause tensions between Germany and France. Once that was revealed, the German communist movement lost a lot of steam.

Speaking of which, do you what happened there? I am pretty sure that both pre and post WW2, the Saar voted to stay German in a referendum, and I think that that point that West Germany was an actual country.

 

[Dolan]

To be fair, that Communist movement didn’t get very far once it was clear that it had heavy Soviet support. The reason why Vietnam managed to establish good ties with the US was because it distanced itself from Moscow and Beijing.

It's mostly Beijing nowadays with Moscow rubber-stamping whatever decision Beijing said to them.

Yeah, don't tell me the bullshit that the two largest Communist Countries being equal powers. The Soviets were stronger up to the 1970s, they become equal during thr 1980-90s, and after 2000s, it was clear that China is the one really calling the shots.

Maybe have China and Soviet Union becoming OUTRIGHY RIVALS instead of keeping their close working relationship, that way, Vietnam would be divided into three Pro-China,Soviet, and American camps that the Americans would be eventually pushed out.