DBWI: Rhénanie becomes German

[Mr. Magi]

I was thinking about some interesting what ifs, and a particularly striking one came to mind. Now the Rhin River is the main northeastern border for France, but the stretch of land from that river to all the way down to the border of Picardy has swapped hands regularly before it went into France's favor. It is in a lot of ways similarly to Silesia in that respect. Your challenge should you chose to accept it is to get the cultural and/or political border French and German closer to say the Mosel river, or whatever division you please.

If you want to try for a Frisian/Dutch/Flemish wank too, that's alright as well. But that's more of a side challenge if you will.

 

[ramones1986]

I don't know, but I read a TL where the southwestern part of Rhineland (Luxembourg-Trier) became Germanized instead of Frenchified like in OTL, with the influx of Huguenots from France; in fact, there were actually two versions of the TL's outcome:
- Germanized Moselle region as a constitutional monarchy (Grand Duchy, to be exact), like in OTL.
- Screwed Germanized Moselle region, concentrated in the city of Luxembourg.

 

[Mr. Magi]

I imagine it'd be somewhat similar to the first one myself, since there are some scattered German speaking communities throughout Rhenanie and there even used to be a few speakers in Alsace and Lorraine as well, and it was only in the 17th century where things became concrete and the region became mainly french speaking. It is interesting that we have two French Nations in Europe though, though I imagine it was more religious and political reasons that kept two of them separate, though we have seen France try and unify the two throughout the 18th and 19th century.

 

[aegis03florin]

Two French Nations which share the same monarch, have the same language, their civil law and administration are terribly similar, have a permanent treaty of alliance, a treaty of free movement and a common free market... It's true that the king and the grand duke which is the same person was an legal artifice to keep the two countries united and it's true that France tried to annex the Grand Duchy several times but it failed due to international opposition, but what is changed for the common people? There are too few differences if a person is citizen of the Kingdom or of the Grand Duchy. The only significant difference between the two is that France is overwhelming Catholic and the Grand Duchy is majority protestant, but these things were more important in the past than in the present.

So, yes, the true frontier of France is the Rhine! There are its strategic interests, there are the military bases and the frontier control.

Now, to not have the French nation in this borders, you must go way back during the wars of the religion or, at latest, during the failed Fronde against Louis XIV. Make it successful and you might significantly change the king personality. Maybe he will become a control freak which will try to impose an absolutist regime over the country, which will prove to be detrimental for the country development.

I don't know! maybe the German states unite (probably around Austria) and crush France early on (19 century at latest), with British, Spanish and maybe even the Russian help, and push her far from Rhine, forcefully Germanizing the population.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Well they were all German speaking back then, the Rhénanie and even Alsace-Lorraine, so it's not unrealistic that the borders of Alsace and Lorraine become the borders between France and Germany. Well, I guess that assumes there is a "Germany" in the first place.

Incidentally, make Poland stronger to take Silesia (or more!), and then you'd have a very compact "Germany".

I don't know, but I read a TL where the southwestern part of Rhineland (Luxembourg-Trier) became Germanized instead of Frenchified like in OTL, with the influx of Huguenots from France; in fact, there were actually two versions of the TL's outcome:
- Germanized Moselle region as a constitutional monarchy (Grand Duchy, to be exact), like in OTL.
- Screwed Germanized Moselle region, concentrated in the city of Luxembourg.

Well, if a region is constantly fought over and suffers huge losses due to warfare, it's not hard to change the ethnic makeup of it with new settlement. Hence where the French made the Rhineland mainly French speaking. This is where the POD lies. Prevent the utter destruction of Baden and the Palatinate during the Thirty Years War, and the German population will hold on far longer. Then prevent France from annexing it a few decades later to seal the change.

 

[Mr. Magi]

You'd also have to disabuse the advantages of settling there for the Huguenots though; traditionally, they moved there because they could be free in the heavily depopulated region. It also helped that they could rely on Germans and especially the Dutch to assist them whenever France came a'knockin' due to the Hapsburg-French Rivalry. It really wasn't until relatively recently that the Grand Duchy and France came close together like that. Before then they were as bitter an enemy as Sweden and Denmark, or Bavaria and Saxony.

 

[Deleted member 92195]

I do not know what Grand duchy you are talking about but I suspect it is hypothesised one of the Moselle region? (Expand) I would like to relate my latest reading to this and that is if Charles of Burgundy lived/Duke of Burgundy survived or Mary the rich married someone else. What is good about Germanising the Moselle region is that it in the area that Charles the Bold would have liked to have gained to attach the duke of Burgundy as one and we all know he wanted it.

The problem with Charles is that he had problems, I read yesterday a contributing factor to his downfall was that he may have had Bipolar or some other disorder which would shed light on his behaviour and why he was never crowned. (you cannot change genetics) The one I like is Mary the rich marrying Rene II, duke of Lorraine (which is the Moselle region) however she wanted to marry Maximilian. (she set her heart him literally and was very adamant) The bad thing about Mary is that duke of Burgundy was cut down by France. Does anyone know who would have succeeded Mary if she did not have issue?

If somehow, Charles can get crowded King of Burgundy or more importantly Mary marries Rene II then the duke of Burgundy can be a continuous state with Burgundy inside the HRE. Now this is around 1470-1500, so 200 years the region should be German. What I would really like would be Charles's burgundy with the Rene IIs, duke of Lorraine. Now for this to happen Charles cannot be as reckless and for Mary to marry Rene for Rene to co-govern and for his son to inherit both dukedoms. Then we would have the house of Lorraine as the Dukes of Burgundy as in 1465-1477 borders.

 

[Spam78]

How far back do you want to go? If the HRE remained intact, it would have been more than powerful enough to beat France, and the border would be well inside modern French territory, potentially even as far as the Marne, though I don't think they'd get Paris. As it happened, Germany was too fractured to effectively fight back. As for the Dutchwank, depending on what timescale we're working on, either they stay part of the HRE for long enough for them to conquer and convert Wallonia and Picardie, or alternatively once their relationships thaw post-independence, the Dutch would likely be considered 'German enough' to be a probable ally and they could acquire territory that way. Calais did used to be Dutch at one point, so such a claim does exist.