PakistaniGuyUK
Banned
OTL :
So for those who might not be familiar with the OTL Near East, the Armenian Dashnaks in 1914 decided to instigate a shock rebellion in Russian Armenia against Tsarist Russia, throwing their full weight behind a seemingly - at the time - absurd Ottoman proposal of 1914 that envisioned Caucasian buffer states between itself and Russia (see below)
1914: The Turkish plan if it had come to fruition (red labels list client states of Turkey)
Wikipedia states: “The Armenian congress at Erzurum held from the end of July to August 2, 1914, was a watershed event where representatives of the ruling Committee of Union and Progress Party convinced the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (the leading Armenian party in both the Ottoman and Russian Empires) to incite a rebellion of Russian Armenians against the Tsarist regime in order to facitate the conquest of Trancaucasia.” The Ottoman plan was to draw the Persians, Kurds, Tatars and Georgians into a holy war against the Allies, though it was never fully realised. Nor did he Central Powers ultimately benefit from the stunning early victories in the Eastern Front. After massive losses the Russians recovered ground and a stalemate ensued, with the Allies eventually emerging victorious in 1918.
Armenia and Azerbaijan became somewhat anomalous independent states escaping the inevitable SSRdom that ‘befell’ Georgia, Moldova and so on. The Armenian’s ‘betrayal’ of Russia resulted in very heavy Russian losses and a severing of ties between Russian Orthodoxy and Armenian denominations as well as resultant pogroms against many Armenians in Russia, in which thousands perished.
The border of the USSR in the Caucasus circa 1920s onward
Armenia and Azerbaijan joined NATO in 1952, along with Turkey and Greece. Armenia proving strategically and culturally important for the West, a secular Christian democracy in the Near East, right under the soft underbelly of the USSR. After the Iranian revolution of 1979 it briefly became the home of deposed Persian royalty, the Shah staying there for a year or so before moving on (the Armenians willing to grant him long-term asylum, but the Shah's advisors thought it too dangerous). In recent years Azerbaijan has shifted more and more towards the Iranian cultural sphere and away from Turkey.
Turkey’s relationship with Armenia has lurched from calm to fraught. From time to time demands have resurfaced for the autonomous territories to be given the right to a referendum (to cede to Armenia or remain autonomous within Turkey). Many vocal critics of the 1914 decision point to the fact that Armenia lost more than two thirds of its territory to Turkey and a decision to side with Russia would have led to an Armenian state at least the size of Poland. Very likely the USSR would have allowed it the freedom of a satellite state like Bulgaria or Romania – and modern Armenia would have been far larger than it currently is. For a brief period up to the 1980s an (allegedly) Soviet funded terrorist wing of the Dashnaks sought union with Armenia through violent means. Around 300 Turks and some pro-Turkish Armenians died, though this popularity of this organisation never reached the levels of the IRA in Northern Ireland.
Overview: 'Armenian Autonomous Territory' within Turkey as it exists today
The three provinces of the 'Armenian Autonomous Territory' within Turkey today
Currently there are 3 Armenian autonomous territories within Turkey (Google map screenshot above ). Turkish commentators point to the fact that these territories are amongst Turkey’s wealthiest and the Armenians have a higher standard of living than most of Turkey. Furthermore they argue that Armenians within Turkey have always been guaranteed freedom of religion, language, culture and association ever since Ataturk (who was fond of Armenians) enshrined it in the constitution. In these 3 territories the regional governor (by law) has to be Armenian.
Incidentally this favouritism of Armenians led to a crystallization of the Kurdish Problem, the Kurds long arguing that they have never been given any of the rights afforded Armenians, their language and culture surpressed. Armenians were treated favourably to them. Hrant Dink, the pro-referendum Armenian Turkish author,has termed it the "California problem." Eastern Turkey is immensely wealthy and this excerbates the problem. "Rich people do not like taking orders and we live in a bubble of sorts. imagine California, wealthy, successful, but in an alternative universe still populated with lots of Mexicans who no longer want to be part of the United States."
There is of course a lot more to write about in OTL - but this is a WI so lets leave it at that!
ATL:
In this timeline the Armenians, in that meeting in 1914, decide NOT to back the revised Turkish plan, and NOT to push Russian Armenians to revolt against Russia. Instead they back the Tsar’s plan for Armenia.
Some questions to think about:
How will this turn out for the Armenians?
What will the modern Armenian State look like… how much larger will it be than Armenia currently is?
Will we get an Armenian SSR or will the Soviets allow a separate socialist country like Romania or Poland on the borders of the USSR?
Will we see Russian troops march through the streets of Istanbul and will Russians finally get access to a warm water port?
Will the modern Turkish state even exist?
Will early Russian success in the Eastern Front mean a stronger, more belligerent Russia?
Will the October Revolution get butterflied away somehow?
Will the Kurds get massacred or downtrodden or do you think Armenians will allow them a Kurdish province within an Armenian state or even outright independence?
So for those who might not be familiar with the OTL Near East, the Armenian Dashnaks in 1914 decided to instigate a shock rebellion in Russian Armenia against Tsarist Russia, throwing their full weight behind a seemingly - at the time - absurd Ottoman proposal of 1914 that envisioned Caucasian buffer states between itself and Russia (see below)
1914: The Turkish plan if it had come to fruition (red labels list client states of Turkey)
Wikipedia states: “The Armenian congress at Erzurum held from the end of July to August 2, 1914, was a watershed event where representatives of the ruling Committee of Union and Progress Party convinced the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (the leading Armenian party in both the Ottoman and Russian Empires) to incite a rebellion of Russian Armenians against the Tsarist regime in order to facitate the conquest of Trancaucasia.” The Ottoman plan was to draw the Persians, Kurds, Tatars and Georgians into a holy war against the Allies, though it was never fully realised. Nor did he Central Powers ultimately benefit from the stunning early victories in the Eastern Front. After massive losses the Russians recovered ground and a stalemate ensued, with the Allies eventually emerging victorious in 1918.
Armenia and Azerbaijan became somewhat anomalous independent states escaping the inevitable SSRdom that ‘befell’ Georgia, Moldova and so on. The Armenian’s ‘betrayal’ of Russia resulted in very heavy Russian losses and a severing of ties between Russian Orthodoxy and Armenian denominations as well as resultant pogroms against many Armenians in Russia, in which thousands perished.
The border of the USSR in the Caucasus circa 1920s onward
Armenia and Azerbaijan joined NATO in 1952, along with Turkey and Greece. Armenia proving strategically and culturally important for the West, a secular Christian democracy in the Near East, right under the soft underbelly of the USSR. After the Iranian revolution of 1979 it briefly became the home of deposed Persian royalty, the Shah staying there for a year or so before moving on (the Armenians willing to grant him long-term asylum, but the Shah's advisors thought it too dangerous). In recent years Azerbaijan has shifted more and more towards the Iranian cultural sphere and away from Turkey.
Turkey’s relationship with Armenia has lurched from calm to fraught. From time to time demands have resurfaced for the autonomous territories to be given the right to a referendum (to cede to Armenia or remain autonomous within Turkey). Many vocal critics of the 1914 decision point to the fact that Armenia lost more than two thirds of its territory to Turkey and a decision to side with Russia would have led to an Armenian state at least the size of Poland. Very likely the USSR would have allowed it the freedom of a satellite state like Bulgaria or Romania – and modern Armenia would have been far larger than it currently is. For a brief period up to the 1980s an (allegedly) Soviet funded terrorist wing of the Dashnaks sought union with Armenia through violent means. Around 300 Turks and some pro-Turkish Armenians died, though this popularity of this organisation never reached the levels of the IRA in Northern Ireland.
Overview: 'Armenian Autonomous Territory' within Turkey as it exists today
The three provinces of the 'Armenian Autonomous Territory' within Turkey today
Currently there are 3 Armenian autonomous territories within Turkey (Google map screenshot above ). Turkish commentators point to the fact that these territories are amongst Turkey’s wealthiest and the Armenians have a higher standard of living than most of Turkey. Furthermore they argue that Armenians within Turkey have always been guaranteed freedom of religion, language, culture and association ever since Ataturk (who was fond of Armenians) enshrined it in the constitution. In these 3 territories the regional governor (by law) has to be Armenian.
Incidentally this favouritism of Armenians led to a crystallization of the Kurdish Problem, the Kurds long arguing that they have never been given any of the rights afforded Armenians, their language and culture surpressed. Armenians were treated favourably to them. Hrant Dink, the pro-referendum Armenian Turkish author,has termed it the "California problem." Eastern Turkey is immensely wealthy and this excerbates the problem. "Rich people do not like taking orders and we live in a bubble of sorts. imagine California, wealthy, successful, but in an alternative universe still populated with lots of Mexicans who no longer want to be part of the United States."
There is of course a lot more to write about in OTL - but this is a WI so lets leave it at that!
ATL:
In this timeline the Armenians, in that meeting in 1914, decide NOT to back the revised Turkish plan, and NOT to push Russian Armenians to revolt against Russia. Instead they back the Tsar’s plan for Armenia.
Some questions to think about:
How will this turn out for the Armenians?
What will the modern Armenian State look like… how much larger will it be than Armenia currently is?
Will we get an Armenian SSR or will the Soviets allow a separate socialist country like Romania or Poland on the borders of the USSR?
Will we see Russian troops march through the streets of Istanbul and will Russians finally get access to a warm water port?
Will the modern Turkish state even exist?
Will early Russian success in the Eastern Front mean a stronger, more belligerent Russia?
Will the October Revolution get butterflied away somehow?
Will the Kurds get massacred or downtrodden or do you think Armenians will allow them a Kurdish province within an Armenian state or even outright independence?
Last edited:
