DBWI: Have Europe be the center of the modern world

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

If Europe became a centre of world power (unlikely, but this is alternative history), then we can expect countries other than England to settle parts of the eastern coast of the Eastlands (perhaps it would be called the 'Westlands' in a European-dominated world?). I doubt there is anything that can stop the Nipponese and the people of the Middle Kingdom from gaining control over the westernmost Eastlands, but perhaps the Europeans could arrive in time to establish viable holdings before the cultural and technological influence of Asia strengthened the native tribes? Avalonia might be larger, for instance, in a timeline in which Europeans had Asian-like technology at the same time as Asia, making it easier to resist native opposition.

You make good points. Settlement patterns in the Asia Eastlands - particularly in the Nipponese north - meant that while the western coasts got planted pretty thickly with settlers, settlement didn't really move far inland for some time (large-scale settlement, that is - obviously, Han trading-houses have been entrenched across the Mexica interior for centuries). Ogonkaigan was limited by desert and mountain, they didn't really start any mass movement to the plains, and by the time they could have, the tribes had been trading with them for centuries and had become, well, far less tribal. And better armed. Easier just to trade with them.

Though some weren't so lucky. The tribes of Ogonkaigan are either gone or have become so closely interwoven with the Nipponese that they are effectively Nipponese (the Arapaho being, apparently, 'younger brothers' of Nippon).

 

[Thesaurus Rex]

Well, according to the book Gunpowder, Gems, and Steam by Jahred Dimmun, Europe was seriously disadvantaged by geography. It's just too remote from where most of the development was going on during the Medieval Period. Look at the "lucky latitudes", i.e., between 20 and 40 degrees latitude: Europe is entirely north of that aside from its southernmost parts. That isolation slowed its development. Sure, Europe had some advanced civilizations 2,000 years ago but the continent never managed to develop much past that. Europe never had much of an agricultural package; pretty much all they had was wheat, while Bharat and Zhongguo had soybeans and rice (far more calorie-rich than wheat). And while the lands of Dar al-Islam have a similar agricultural package to Europe, it had a several thousand year head start on civilization compared to Europe.

Now one might talk about the similarities of climate between Zhongguo and Europe, and that if Zhongguo could become advanced, so could Europe. But this ignores the fact that Europe is too divided. All those peninsulas and islands create ethnic divides. And that inevitably causes conflict. I mean, Europe had two massive wars that killed millions in just the last century. That conflict is what has slowed down technological advancement in Europe and kept it backward. In contrast, Zhongguo is united (both geographically and ethnically), and that unity means centuries of uninterrupted peace and progress.

In short, the world was simply destined to develop along an axis from North Africa to the Korean Peninsula. Thus, I find this premise very implausible.

This. It's literally the ass end of Asia. And the geography within it is so broken up by mountains, rivers and the like that nobody's going to unify it all into one big power like Zhongguo. Not for long, anyway.

Not to mention it has very little gold or other natural resources to trade, which guarantees its spot below world powers like Gurkani, Mali, Intisuyu, and especially the Eastern Asian countries, along with its inevitable colonialism (some might say conquest) by Eastern and Western Asian nations (which honestly hasn't helped Europe's modern-day political-economic predicaments).

I mean -- sure, don't get me wrong. Europeans are okay people, and they have a lot of culture (mostly because of that geography mentioned). But a lot of culture does not a world power make, especially not a 'center of the modern world'. To top it all off these cultures...well...kind of hate each other. A decent-sized European state doesn't last very long before rivalries, intrigue, greed, and...to use a term invented by them out of necessity of their nature, hubris, takes over and they're back to square one. The only thing holding the 30 or so European...kingdoms together is their pan-European priest-nobility class, but the Pope's power has waned in recent decades. They were a gift and a curse in that they did a great job at preserving ancient texts for us civilized folk but they weren't very kind to innovative thoughts and technologies that threatened them. Little-known factoid: Europe almost independently invented and adopted the printing press. A man in the German Kingdom made one out of a wine press. Instantly banned. Luckily the Papal archives were taken over so we know all about crazy stuff like this.

I don't think Europe can get past its geography-induced rivalry and superstition. Remember: Gurkani almost fell into this exact same problem, but its more open terrain gave it an advantage.

The best option I can see is to go way in the past before Europe's fragmentation and conquer richer countries like Mali or even across the sea to Anahuac. You might even get some to sail around Africa all the way to Zhongguo, but that's really out there. Even then, I'm not sure how you get to the whole 'center of the modern world' part, as that requires nurturing intelligent minds and collecting diverse arrays of information.

 

[Whiteshore]

Little-known factoid: Europe almost independently invented and adopted the printing press. A man in the German Kingdom made one out of a wine press. Instantly banned. Luckily the Papal archives were taken over so we know all about crazy stuff like this.

Well, the guy who made the press fled to Constantinople as soon as he sensed trouble as well.

Not to mention it has very little gold or other natural resources to trade, which guarantees its spot below world powers like Gurkani, Mali, Intisuyu, and especially the Eastern Asian countries, along with its inevitable colonialism (some might say conquest) by Eastern and Western Asian nations (which honestly hasn't helped Europe's modern-day political-economic predicaments).

There is a reason why Burgundy and England were lucky to have reform-minded rulers who helped keep their independence as well.

 

[Whiteshore]

So, what do you think contributed more to Europe's stagnation? The power of the church or it's geography?

 

[Zhou Yu]

So, what do you think contributed more to Europe's stagnation? The power of the church or it's geography?

Definitely the Church. You'd need the institution as a whole to be weaker, with a stronger secularized government to compensate. There needs to be a way for the religious head to be severely weakened. Perhaps if one or more of the heretic movements suceeded? After all, Ruidian (Sweden, aka Scandinavia) almost managed to pull itself into the modern era through the Industrialize and Develop Movement, as well as the Hundred Day Reconstitution, but both of these efforts ended up being shut down by their religious head.

 

[Whiteshore]

Definitely the Church. You'd need the institution as a whole to be weaker, with a stronger secularized government to compensate. There needs to be a way for the religious head to be severely weakened. Perhaps if one or more of the heretic movements suceeded? After all, Ruidian (Sweden, aka Scandinavia) almost managed to pull itself into the modern era through the Industrialize and Develop Movement, as well as the Hundred Day Reconstitution, but both of these efforts ended up being shut down by their religious head.

The British and the Burgundians did manage to cut down the church to size (albeit with the British/English having more success than the Burgundians in that).

 

[Ilúphatar]

Though some weren't so lucky. The tribes of Ogonkaigan are either gone or have become so closely interwoven with the Nipponese that they are effectively Nipponese (the Arapaho being, apparently, 'younger brothers' of Nippon).

I wonder how much integration between the native tribes and the hypothetical European colonies there would have been? Given Catholic Europe's penchant for intolerance, it might only be possible for countries that ditched the Pope, as England did.

The British

The concept of 'Britain' is not yet a reality. Yes, Scotland is a protectorate of the Kingdom of England, but discussions about unification have not made much progress.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

I wonder how much integration between the native tribes and the hypothetical European colonies there would have been? Given Catholic Europe's penchant for intolerance, it might only be possible for countries that ditched the Pope, as England did.

Yeesh...that would've been terrible.

The colonisation of the Eastlands has had its dark chapters, but at the same time: the Nipponese only actively targeted the tribes who resisted them, cultural assimilation tended not to be overly forced; and the Han work through vassals, so the existing powers retained their regional influence. Christian Europe would probably have wiped them all out.

Actually: on a frivolous note, popular culture would have been quite different. 'Frontier Samurai' literature (and film these days) about Ronin and new daimyo in Ogonkaigan is so well entrenched into the popular consciousness, I can't imagine a world without it.

 

[Whiteshore]

I wonder how much integration between the native tribes and the hypothetical European colonies there would have been? Given Catholic Europe's penchant for intolerance, it might only be possible for countries that ditched the Pope, as England did.

Rhomania's experience in the Hesperides (OOC: The OTL Mid-Atlantic states) or the English one in Avalonia might be a good model for Catholic states who ditched the pope like the English did but if it was a pure-Catholic power, it would be horrible.

 

[avernite]

People studying Europe are such crazies.

On one hand, they argue for a strong unified Europe as important. On the other, they argue for lessening of the only power holding them together at all, being the Church.

Sure, England managed to bloodily suppress the Church and destroy much of its culture, but look where it has left England - a rich but waning country, most known for its utter cultural weirdness. Bereft of its roots and culture, it's just a mess.

What you need is a stronger Church, that can redirect the many squabbling Europeans outward; to Rhomania, to the east, and south towards Islam. Do that for a few decades and Europe will look fine; do it for a century, and they'll be strong and advanced enough (stealing technology wholesale if need be) to cross over the ocean to their west and contest Nippon and Zhongguo in the Eastlands.

And remember, Europe's not all that weak; Bharat managed to dominate it mostly for a few decades, and even then it never controlled the area completely; that same boneheaded violence and separatism coupled with still being part of Asian technical sphere means they were never so far behind as the Eastlands, and were able to resist Bharatian colonization until almost the end of the colonial period (and for England and Burgundy, even managed permanently).

 

[Thesaurus Rex]

Yeesh...that would've been terrible.

The colonisation of the Eastlands has had its dark chapters, but at the same time: the Nipponese only actively targeted the tribes who resisted them, cultural assimilation tended not to be overly forced; and the Han work through vassals, so the existing powers retained their regional influence. Christian Europe would probably have wiped them all out.

Actually: on a frivolous note, popular culture would have been quite different. 'Frontier Samurai' literature (and film these days) about Ronin and new daimyo in Ogonkaigan is so well entrenched into the popular consciousness, I can't imagine a world without it.

Now that would be interesting. I can't imagine what the Taiheyo Ocean would look like without Nipponese expansionism. Would Hawai still be the major, sparkling trade hub it is today? Or would it remain an out-of-the-way place, perhaps a mere tourist destination? Would the islands even unite without influence from Nippon? I shudder to think of a world without Hawaiian food...at least, the kind we know D:

 

[Laqueesha]

OOC: DBWI?

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

OOC: DBWI?

OOC: Well, Europe is the centre of the Western World. OK, not militarily anymore, but most of our shared cultural touchstones come from Europe, and if it wasn't for Europe the United States wouldn't exist in the form they are now, so... Yeah. We're still very much at the heart of things.

 

[Pyramus]

I think the only way to make Europe the center of the modern world is to stop the decline of the Rhomanian Empire from a continent wide power. Two thousand years ago the empire was relatively ahead of its time technology and it provides for the united government we've spoken about. It was the decline of the empire that created the feudal system and the ethnic division that held Europe back.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

I think the only way to make Europe the center of the modern world is to stop the decline of the Rhomanian Empire from a continent wide power. Two thousand years ago the empire was relatively ahead of its time technology and it provides for the united government we've spoken about. It was the decline of the empire that created the feudal system and the ethnic division that held Europe back.

Either that or if Alexander the Great's empire had endured, but go back that far and the butterflies are immense...

@Thesaurus Rex - true - Hawaii was developed hugely thanks to shipping between Nippon and Ogonkaigan. Plus the whaling trade up around Kamchatka- the number of traditional Nipponese songs and dances about whaling in Northern waters and returning to Maui...

 

[Timaeus]

What you need is a stronger Church, that can redirect the many squabbling Europeans outward; to Rhomania, to the east, and south towards Islam. Do that for a few decades and Europe will look fine; do it for a century, and they'll be strong and advanced enough (stealing technology wholesale if need be) to cross over the ocean to their west and contest Nippon and Zhongguo in the Eastlands.

And not only that - consider how much closer the Farlands are to Europe, and how much more hospitable the land is from that end. Indeed, I remember reading somewhere about some Norse explorer reaching those lands centuries before Nihon and the Dongdu empire did, and even establishing a few settlements before getting driven out by the Mi'kmaq.

 

[Whiteshore]

So, which factors do you think led to Asia pulling ahead of Europe and why? Me? I'd go with the power of the Catholic Church due to the fact that countries which broke the Church's power (like England and Burgundy) and non-Catholic countries (like Rhomania, Serbia, and Bulgaria) are better off than strictly Catholic countries and had successful modernizations.

 

[Timaeus]

So, which factors do you think led to Asia pulling ahead of Europe and why? Me? I'd go with the power of the Catholic Church due to the fact that countries which broke the Church's power (like England and Burgundy) and non-Catholic countries (like Rhomania, Serbia, and Bulgaria) are better off than strictly Catholic countries and had successful modernizations.

On the contrary, the Church was the only one producing anything of worth in the region: feats of engineering were built by the Church, not the warring princes and quarreling tribes of the Franks. Were it not for the thousand princes, they would be as great a power as any of the ones west of Rhum.

After the fall of the western half of Rhum to the Franks, the Church was the only one providing stability in the region. At the very least, their Christendom was the only thing that gave them a united front against encroaching colonizers like Dongdu and Nihon.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

A better quality of ruler.

Muslim, Han and Nihonjin rulers were educated, cultured men (and women, in some cases), with keen interests in the arts and sciences as well as war. European rulers, by contrast, were barbarian brutes half of whom were illiterate.

OOC: Assume bias on the part of my TTL poster

 

[JMT]

I was reading about this Kanut the Great guy (OOC: Cnut) who apparently unified, albeit briefly, England, Denmark and Norway. What if you keep his Empire together?