DBWI: Have Europe be the center of the modern world

[ThatRomanFanatic]

As an Englishman, the amount of time it took to modernise astounded me.
What wen need is a secularist coup in all European countries so an advancement can occur.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Could any of the European powers have developed the Great Eastlands at all? Both Zhongguo and Nippon owed their growth in power to the Age of Glorious Discovery, with settlement in Yingzhou, Inka and Ogonkaigan respectively.

I think that Nippon got the better deal there, actually. Yingzhou and Inka had more obvious gold and silver to exploit, and after some...persuasion, the Inka and Mexica became firm members of the Middle Kingdom's Inner Court vassals, so short-term Zhongguo benefited hugely...but long-term, Ogonkaigan was fine land for farming settlement and proved to have a fair amount of gold of its own.

Of course, these days Ogonkaigan quite overshadows Nippon itself - the Taishuu of Ogonkaigan has a great deal more power than the Shogun, even if both nominally bow to the tenno.

OOC: Ogonkaigan is California and Cascadia.

 

[Whiteshore]

Could any of the European powers have developed the Great Eastlands at all? Both Zhongguo and Nippon owed their growth in power to the Age of Glorious Discovery, with settlement in Yingzhou, Inka and Ogonkaigan respectively.

Well, the English had their "prestige colony" in Avalonia (OOC: Refers to what in OTL would be Nova Scotia and the surrounding area)

 

[Analytical Engine]

Europe's constant internal feuding certainly didn't help. Too many kings had too many rivals. For example, the kingdom of Fàguó (OOC: France) exists on paper, yes, but every lord of significant degree has a great deal of power within their demesne. The Son of Heaven wouldn't tolerate his provincial governors that much autonomy, not without formal limits on their power.

The temporal power of the Catholic Church was (and still is) far too strong compared to that of their secular counterparts. Of course, piety is all well and good, but there is such a thing as moderation.

The so-called Holy Roman Empire imploded thanks to lack of central control. I understand that the title of Emperor/Kaiser still technically exists amongst the peoples of Déguó (OOC: Germany), but it is totally meaningless nowadays, especially given several people have claimed it at the same time in the past. The only proper Emperor in Europe (strictly speaking) lives in Constantinople.

Maybe expanding the ideals of Grand Master Kong (OOC: Confucius), or something like it. Each person and institution should proper deference, according to their station and degree, whilst their betters should maintain and uphold their right and proper responsibilities. Yīngguó (OOC: England) managed it, by curtailing the power of the over-mighty clergy and nobility, enhancing the merchant class to prominence to allow industrialisation, reforming their military, and restoring proper order and fealty towards their king.

OOC: Roleplaying a Chinese person, with a bit of a hard-on for a reformed version of Confucianism

 

[Thanksforallthefish]

So, what other European states do you think could have pulled an "England" and modernized and why? Me? I'd go with the Kingdom of Burgundy as their ruling dynasty produced a series of highly intelligent and charismatic monarchs who maintained stability and protected Burgundian independence (I've been reading on King Charles V, King Louis IX, and Queen Genevieve I of Burgundy, who were interesting figures who were arguably responsible for Burgundy's relative prosperity)

OOC: I am thinking of the Burgundians as essentially pulling a "Siam".

Pulling an England is hard becuase of the specific conditions of England; namely the social changes after the Black Death and the Brother's Wars and the distance from central church authority that led to a strong secularist, independent movement. That's hard to replicate in the rest of Europe. Maybe a unified Italia?

Could any of the European powers have developed the Great Eastlands at all? Both Zhongguo and Nippon owed their growth in power to the Age of Glorious Discovery, with settlement in Yingzhou, Inka and Ogonkaigan respectively.

I think that Nippon got the better deal there, actually. Yingzhou and Inka had more obvious gold and silver to exploit, and after some...persuasion, the Inka and Mexica became firm members of the Middle Kingdom's Inner Court vassals, so short-term Zhongguo benefited hugely...but long-term, Ogonkaigan was fine land for farming settlement and proved to have a fair amount of gold of its own.

Of course, these days Ogonkaigan quite overshadows Nippon itself - the Taishuu of Ogonkaigan has a great deal more power than the Shogun, even if both nominally bow to the tenno.

OOC: Ogonkaigan is California and Cascadia.

I think that's ASB. No European power had the ship technology to sucessfully reach, let alone maintain, overseas colonies (except for Cordoba in Atlantis* and the Carib Gulf). The Scandinavians managed to venture in the North Sea as far as Avalonia, and even establish small settlments, but they did not had the economic will or means to create colonies. Also the cultures they contacted, unlike the Inka and Mexica, were not the rich urban cultures that could stimulate trade relations like OTL.

*South America, especifically Brazil and the Plata Basin.

 

[Whiteshore]

Pulling an England is hard becuase of the specific conditions of England; namely the social changes after the Black Death and the Brother's Wars and the distance from central church authority that led to a strong secularist, independent movement. That's hard to replicate in the rest of Europe. Maybe a unified Italia?

Well, Burgundy almost pulled an England with the three monarchs I mentioned and they are arguably the most prominent of the "wolf economies" which have recently risen to prominence (the other wolf economies are Serbia, Bulgaria, Venetia, Aquitaine, Norway, and Frisia).

 

[Whiteshore]

Europe's constant internal feuding certainly didn't help. Too many kings had too many rivals. For example, the kingdom of Fàguó (OOC: France) exists on paper, yes, but every lord of significant degree has a great deal of power within their demesne. The Son of Heaven wouldn't tolerate his provincial governors that much autonomy, not without formal limits on their power.

And Aquitaine and Burgundy had been separate kingdoms since the 16th century, when their dukes took advantage of a period where the Kings of France were merely children to "upgrade" themselves from dukes to Kings and proceeded to centralize their kingdoms.

 

[Timaeus]

You'd almost need something catastrophic, like the Oghuz Turks wheeling south around the Caspian Sea instead of going north and hitting the Saqaliba. Even that might not be enough. You'd need something to completely smash the Breadbasket of Civilization going on in the Levant, Arabia and Egypt at that time, and not much can do that short of natural disasters, but those are a bit ASB.

To be fair, the Iraani migrations did take that route and crush the old empires of that region, once. And there is much evidence of a Bronze Age Collapse in the region. It isn't that horribly ASB.

 

[Whiteshore]

So, when do you think was Europe's fate to fall into stagnation sealed? When the Holy Roman Empire collapsed into civil war over the Imperial succession in 1164 and a Turkic invasion struck two years later?

 

[Pyramus]

One of the largest motivations for the English modernization was the looming specter of imperialism from Bharat.
Bharat had already forced England to open themselves up for trade, and considering Bharat's actions in Abyssinia there was great reason to fear the establishment of a British Raj.

 

[Whiteshore]

One of the largest motivations for the English modernization was the looming specter of imperialism from Bharat.
Bharat had already forced England to open themselves up for trade, and considering Bharat's actions in Abyssinia there was great reason to fear the establishment of a British Raj.

Yea, that was probably the reason why Baron Oliver Reed launched a coup against King Edmund IV which installed Princess Alexandra, the King's 14-year old niece as Queen Alexandra I of the Kingdom of England with Oliver Reed and General Lawrence Rivetry as the real rulers of England in 1281 AH (1864 AD) coup which helped trigger the modernization of England.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

I think that's ASB. No European power had the ship technology to sucessfully reach, let alone maintain, overseas colonies (except for Cordoba in Atlantis* and the Carib Gulf).

True: European ship technology was never especially advanced before the modern age. You certainly wouldn't see anything like the Treasure Ships that plied the ocean between Zhongguo and the Great Eastlands being built in Europe. Or the ships that Nippon ended up developing - smaller than the Treasure Ships, true, but far quicker and more manoeuvrable.

Also the cultures they contacted, unlike the Inka and Mexica, were not the rich urban cultures that could stimulate trade relations like OTL.

True enough. Their religious practices notwithstanding, the Inka and Mexica civilisations were at least recognisable, and they were fertile ground for trade.

Disease too, alas - which of course ended up making their civilisations even more susceptible to being made vassals.

But you're right - many of the cultures of the Northern part of the Great Eastlands just weren't the kind who encourage trade (well, not back then, anyway). OK, al-Jadida* grew a fair bit from settlement, and it's got a position of regional influence in the Northern Eastlands, but it didn't develop much revenue for Dar al-Islam's home regions. Though if they'd picked somewhere better to settle...those swamps...

* OOC: Florida and Lousiana.

 

[Ilúphatar]

If Europe became a centre of world power (unlikely, but this is alternative history), then we can expect countries other than England to settle parts of the eastern coast of the Eastlands (perhaps it would be called the 'Westlands' in a European-dominated world?). I doubt there is anything that can stop the Nipponese and the people of the Middle Kingdom from gaining control over the westernmost Eastlands, but perhaps the Europeans could arrive in time to establish viable holdings before the cultural and technological influence of Asia strengthened the native tribes? Avalonia might be larger, for instance, in a timeline in which Europeans had Asian-like technology at the same time as Asia, making it easier to resist native opposition.

Another possibility could be a more centralised confederation of Northmen (as we call them in England). There is that old legend of Leif Erikson of Iceland, who supposedly discovered what is today Avalonia and called it 'Vinland'. Maybe a longer lasting Vinlandish (?) settlement in the Avalonian region might provide an impetus for the development of better ocean-going ships, thus allowing northern Europeans to access the Mediterranean tail-end of the Silk Road?

 

[Analytical Engine]

If Europe became a centre of world power (unlikely, but this is alternative history), then we can expect countries other than England to settle parts of the eastern coast of the Eastlands (perhaps it would be called the 'Westlands' in a European-dominated world?). I doubt there is anything that can stop the Nipponese and the people of the Middle Kingdom from gaining control over the westernmost Eastlands, but perhaps the Europeans could arrive in time to establish viable holdings before the cultural and technological influence of Asia strengthened the native tribes? Avalonia might be larger, for instance, in a timeline in which Europeans had Asian-like technology at the same time as Asia, making it easier to resist native opposition.

Another possibility could be a more centralised confederation of Northmen (as we call them in England). There is that old legend of Leif Erikson of Iceland, who supposedly discovered what is today Avalonia and called it 'Vinland'. Maybe a longer lasting Vinlandish (?) settlement in the Avalonian region might provide an impetus for the development of better ocean-going ships, thus allowing northern Europeans to access the Mediterranean tail-end of the Silk Road?

I suppose, if Al-Andalus experienced a prolonged period of political weakness, then the Christian kingdoms that once existed in northern Spain could have capitalised on it. I understand that they squabbled amongst each other more often than not. Perhaps if they ended up unifying under a single monarch, it could have colonised parts of southern Eastland, and perhaps the Arawak Islands (OOC: Greater Antilles).

If Fàguó (OOC: France) or the HRE/Déguó (OOC: Germany) were stable and unified, then they to might have formed colonies in the northern parts of the Eastlands. Maintenance of the Carolingian Dynasty's Empire would have been ideal. A large, peaceful state covering much of Europe, with a strong Emperor, would be preferable.

 

[Whiteshore]

So, what do you think are the main reasons for Europe's technological stagnation and why?

 

[water123]

Honestly, it seems like if the Ecumenical Patriarch had broken the power of the Pope early on, it could have helped. Rhom was, and still arguably is, one of the most powerful nations in the whole area due to their Patriarch frankly not having his power go to his head. Maybe if Rhom had invaded the Pope's little fief after the Pope excommunicated him in 10-something, it would have helped things. It still might not have been enough to come out on top, but it would have been a start.

That, and somehow have Red Flu (OTL Plague) get to Europe before Zhongguo does would also help. That, that, or keep the Song from industrializing, but I feel like that's kinda ASB IMO.

 

[Whiteshore]

That, and somehow have Red Flu (OTL Plague) get to Europe before Zhongguo does would also help. That, that, or keep the Song from industrializing, but I feel like that's kinda ASB IMO.

Our world would probably be less advanced if the Industrial Revolution happened later didn't happen with no space stations in the outer planets, cybernetic augmentics being very common, and the like.

 

[water123]

Our world would probably be less advanced if the Industrial Revolution happened later didn't happen with no space stations in the outer planets, cybernetic augmentics being very common, and the like.

I'd bet that we wouldn't even have had guns be widespread. Heck, this even butterflies away the Manichean Renaissance! Imagine the history of Southern India without Manicheism!

 

[Analytical Engine]

Honestly, it seems like if the Ecumenical Patriarch had broken the power of the Pope early on, it could have helped. Rhom was, and still arguably is, one of the most powerful nations in the whole area due to their Patriarch frankly not having his power go to his head. Maybe if Rhom had invaded the Pope's little fief after the Pope excommunicated him in 10-something, it would have helped things. It still might not have been enough to come out on top, but it would have been a start.

Agreed - the power of the Catholic Church in Europe is far too great. Outside of Yīngguó (OOC: England), the treatment of religious minorities is terrible, especially in lands ruled by their priests-princes (OOC: Prince Bishoprics). Deviation from official doctrine (OOC: heresy) leads to one being labelled an outcast at best, even in the so-called "Free Cities" of northern Déguó (OOC: Germany). In others, it can lead to imprisonment, exile, or even death. Jews are persecuted vigorously outside of Wēinísī (OOC: Venice) or the Orthodox-majority areas in southeastern Europe, whilst Muslims are allowed only on sufferance (more than one Caliph or Sultan has used gunboat diplomacy to protect their subjects).

So unlike Ü-Tsang (OOC: Tibet), which, despite officially being a Buddhist theocracy (though the Dalai Lama no longer has much temporal power these days), allows other people to practice other faiths with only minimal restrictions. Even the most fervently pious countries in the Dar al-Islam allow religious minorities to practice their faith, though subject to religious taxation.

 

[Whiteshore]

Agreed - the power of the Catholic Church in Europe is far too great. Outside of Yīngguó (OOC: England), the treatment of religious minorities is terrible, especially in lands ruled by their priests-princes (OOC: Prince Bishoprics). Deviation from official doctrine (OOC: heresy) leads to one being labelled an outcast at best, even in the so-called "Free Cities" of northern Déguó (OOC: Germany). In others, it can lead to imprisonment, exile, or even death. Jews are persecuted vigorously outside of Wēinísī (OOC: Venice) or the Orthodox-majority areas in southeastern Europe, whilst Muslims are allowed only on sufferance (more than one Caliph or Sultan has used gunboat diplomacy to protect their subjects).

So unlike Ü-Tsang (OOC: Tibet), which, despite officially being a Buddhist theocracy (though the Dalai Lama no longer has much temporal power these days), allows other people to practice other faiths with only minimal restrictions. Even the most fervently pious countries in the Dar al-Islam allow religious minorities to practice their faith, though subject to religious taxation.

Well, Burgundy (or Bogendi) is fairly reasonable as Jews, Muslims, and "heretics" who live in Burgundy are "only" subject to religious taxation and some police harassment of religious leaders much like the more religiously devoted countries of Dar al-Islam.