Dalmatia Ascendant

[Ilúphatar]

RL before TL is a rule we must all abide too.

Quite. Thanks for understanding.

I liked the last few updates although I am a bit skeptical about the kind of manoeuvre the Dalmatians pulled in the battle of Zara, splitting and sailing away from the Venetian battle line just before impact, but maybe I am wrong and the Dalmatian ships really had that kind of speed and agility. In any case it is not important, the Venetian by that point were already in a tactically dreadful position.

I was informed by someone who lives in Zadar and who seems knowledgeable in Dalmatian history (I intend to give them their due after the timeline is finished, where I shall do references and credits) that Zaratin ships tended to be smaller, faster and more agile than the larger Venetian galleys. Zara had a record of using 'sneaky tricks' in their wars against Venice, once even capturing a great part of the Venetian fleet under the cover of night.

Serbia may be interested in this

Indeed. Input on this particular subject would be appreciated, as (alas, yet again) my knowledge of Serbian history is somewhat lacking.

As far as I recall, Serbia is currently in a mini-civil war of sorts, with Vukan Nemanjić having overthrown his brother Stefan Nemanja II in 1202. However, as a result of binding himself to Hungary, he was thrusted into the wars between Hungary and Bulgaria. In the chaos of the Bulgarian attack in 1203, which led to the eastern part of the country, including Niš, to be taken, Stefan managed to counter-overthrow his brother. Then, with the intervention of their third brother, Rastko or ol' Saint Sava, Vukan was allowed to return to his apanage in Duklja.

Speaking of Stefan and Sava, for the former, with the fall of Venice, we may have butterflied his second wife, whilst for the latter, with the lack of chaos as a result of the Fourth Crusade, we may have just made the quest for Serbian autocephaly ever so slightly harder.

I doubt the course of the civil war will change to any great extent. The Hungarians are still more concerned about the Balkans than directly confronting the Venetians, not when Zara seems to be handling the situation competently. This information may be helpful for me to mention in the TL, so thanks

Perhaps a suitable Zaratin alternative can be devised

In case you know, I have a question: was Ragusa under the overlordship of Serbia during this period? I earlier stated that the Byzantines held the greatest influence in the city, but the rule of Serbia over the hinterland might be significant.

 

[Veranius]

This is developing into a great TL, an excellent accomplishment for your first.

A question: would the Holy Roman Empire get involved in the Istrian War, perhaps to "impose Imperial authority on Venice"? And what are the Hungarians thinking about?

 

[Vuru]

@Iluvatar

i'm a serb, ask me your answers :^)

Well, right now Stefan the first-crowned is probably scheming on making the Pope crown him as king due to papal attempts to spread catholicism in the balkans, which he intended to (ab)use to the fullest without actually turning catholic

And no Ragusa/Dubrovnik definitely wasn't under our overlordship or anything, as matter of fact the coast was rather barely under our control, at least around all the major cities.

The Venetian/Catholic domination of Dubrovnik and the cities was pretty much the reason why the locals in the interior got Croatianized even though they were initially Serb (at the time the difference was nonexistent apart from religion, even smaller than today which is again almost nonexistent)

We did give Ragusa a free trade agreement tho, in 1186

 

[Halagaz]

In case you know, I have a question: was Ragusa under the overlordship of Serbia during this period? I earlier stated that the Byzantines held the greatest influence in the city, but the rule of Serbia over the hinterland might be significant.

The city of Ragusa wasn't under Serbian overlordship, though there was some influence due to Serbia's possession of the hinterland, and many commercial relations. In fact, it was under Sicilian overlordship in 1185-92 and nominal Byzantine overlordship after 1192.

If Hungary has benefited from this scenario, then there's a chance that Vukan may win the dynastic war and become King of Serbia under Hungarian influence. If Vukan replaces the main branch of the Nemanjic dynasty, he might actually try out Catholicism...but that probably won't last for long. Generally, Serbia has little to gain or lose from the Venetian debacle in the short term. In the long run, who knows.


The ethnic makeup of Ragusa is an interesting question, and a source of some controversy. AFAIK, Ragusa and a few other coastal centers were dominated by Romance-speakers; Slavs lived alongside them, but will not become culturally dominant for a long time. The Slavic groups in and around Ragusa almost certainly included both Croats and Serbs.

 

[Damian0358]

If Hungary has benefited from this scenario, then there's a chance that Vukan may win the dynastic war and become King of Serbia under Hungarian influence. If Vukan replaces the main branch of the Nemanjic dynasty, he might actually try out Catholicism...but that probably won't last for long. Generally, Serbia has little to gain or lose from the Venetian debacle in the short term. In the long run, who knows.

A victory for Vukan would definitely lead to him converting to Catholicism, as agreed in his deal with Emeric. Serbia would become a Hungarian vassal, akin to Bosnia during the same period, with Emeric adopting the title of King of Serbia, or Seruiaeque Rex, whilst Vukan retained the title of Grand Prince/Župan. Obviously, this wouldn't last long, as even when Stefan got crowned king in the Catholic style, people had already gotten used to the Orthodox ways (except on the coast, due to higher Catholic influence), to the point where Sava protested this and left again for Mount Athos (though later he did come back, and apparently re-crowned him in the Orthodox style; also, another reason for why he might've left for Athos might be because of his efforts in making the Serbian church autocephalous).

Now, this all depends on how the lack of the Fourth Crusade has affected Balkan (or should we said Haemic?) politics at this point, as a weakened Byzantium had allowed Bulgaria to become more pro-active in its external affairs, especially in regards to their then-leader, Kaloyan, who was decently expansionist in his policies. He gave Stefan sanctuary after Vukan overthrew him, and he himself was at the time attempting to get a crown from the Pope, albeit an Imperial one (he was only crowned king by a cardinal sometime during 1204; though something he noted in one of his letter to the pope that Byzantium was willing to send an imperial crown to him and to acknowledge the autocephalous status of the Bulgarian Church, though that might've just been a bluff to get the influence-hungry Pope to send him a crown).

Honestly, even with the lack of the Fourth Crusade, I feel as though everything that had happened between Hungary, Serbia and Bulgaria would remain the same, as Kaloyan had signed a peace treaty with Alexios III sometime during late 1201 or early 1202. So Vukan will be beaten back and Stefan will come back to power.

Perhaps a suitable Zaratin alternative can be devised

Stefan's marriage with his second Venetian wife was politically advantageous; marrying a member of a patrician family from the most powerful maritime republic not only brought the Grand Principality closer to the West, but led to a strong Latin influence as a result of the Venetian artisans that followed in his wife's wake. With the fall of Venice, Stefan would have to look for a different Catholic wife with the same sort of political importance, one that would eventually allow him to be able to get a papal legate to come and crown him king. If Zara, and the larger Dalmatian League, reached the same status as Venice in terms of political importance, a Zaratin wife might just work.

And as I mentioned, the lack of the chaos of the Fourth Crusade will hamper Sava's attempts in getting the Serbian Church autocephaly. Getting his dad, Stefan Nemanja, canonized in 1206, and the Studenica Typicon, written in 1208, evolving into a sort of lex specialis (which would allow the Studenica monastery to have a sort of independent status compared to the Bishopric of Raška and Archbishopric of Ohrid), would be the first steps towards future autocephaly, and they would almost definitely happen, but everything after that is fuzzy, especially as relations between the Despotate of Epirus (where the Archbishopric of Ohrid was seated, which the Serbian Church was subordinated to) and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople would not be strained as they were following the Fourth Crusade. Serbia would most certainly meet the conditions for autocephaly, but whether or not the Ecumenical Patriarchate would allow it is hard to say.

Sava might end up refusing Stefan's offer to stay in Serbia with his clergy as a result, not starting a widespread pastoral and educational duty to the people of Serbia, as he attempted to pull double duty in order to try and get that autocephaly, butterflying away several monasteries he co-founded with his brother, including Žiča. However, he might realize that not accepting his offer might result in Serbia not having a notable number of learned monks, regulated monastic life, and stable church hierarchy, all factors which led to the Ecumenical Patriarchate to admit that "its autocephaly, in a way, was only a question of time," thus delaying the autocephaly of the Church. Unlike real life were accepting the offer was a easy decision, here Sava has more to risk with staying, whilst also having more to risk with leaving. Personally, I think that Sava would accept Stefan's offer as he did in real life, but if he had a student or pupil under his wing at the time, he would ask for them to, at least until Stefan deals with the Catholics causing Sava to leave, keep everything stable when it comes to the progress made towards autocephaly, trusting that they would be able to handle it. This would push back the original date of Serbian autocephaly in 1219, to at least some time during the 1220s, 1228 at latest.

 

[Halagaz]

A victory for Vukan would lead definitely lead to him converting to Catholicism, as agreed in his deal with Emeric. Serbia would become a Hungarian vassal, akin to Bosnia during the same period, with Emeric adopting the title of King of Serbia, or Seruiaeque Rex, whilst Vukan retained the title of Grand Prince/Župan. Obviously, this wouldn't last long, as even when Stefan got crowned king in the Catholic style, people had already gotten used to the Orthodox ways (except on the coast, due to higher Catholic influence), to the point where Sava protested this and left again for Mount Athos (though later he did come back, and apparently re-crowned him in the Orthodox style; also, another reason for why he might've left for Athos might be because of his efforts in making the Serbian church autocephalous).

Now, this all depends on how the lack of the Fourth Crusade has affected Balkan (or should we said Haemic?) politics at this point, as a weakened Byzantium had allowed Bulgaria to become more pro-active in its external affairs, especially in regards to their then-leader, Kaloyan, who was decently expansionist in his policies. He gave Stefan sanctuary after Vukan overthrew him, and he himself was at the time attempting to get a crown from the Pope, albeit an Imperial one (he was only crowned king by a cardinal sometime during 1204; though something he noted in one of his letter to the pope that Byzantium was willing to send an imperial crown to him and to acknowledge the autocephalous status of the Bulgarian Church, though that might've just been a bluff to get the influence-hungry Pope to send him a crown).

Honestly, even with the lack of the Fourth Crusade, I feel as though everything that had happened between Hungary, Serbia and Bulgaria would remain the same, as Kaloyan had signed a peace treaty with Alexios III sometime during late 1201 or early 1202. So Vukan will be beaten back and Stefan will come back to power.

Emeric himself had appealed to the Pope to grant Vukan a crown, so it seems like Vukan would have also been King of Serbia...but still subordinate to Hungary one way or another.
Of course, you may be right, and the civil war between Vukan and Stefan simply ends the same way.

I think the hostility between Orthodoxy and Catholicism in those times is often exaggerated. It is unlikely that Sava was really protesting Stefan's relations with the Pope; leaving for Mount Athos in this context would have made little sense, since Mount Athos itself was in the hands of a Latin Empire, and had temporarily accepted the authority of the Pope (if only at the point of a sword). Had Sava really been opposed to his brother's policies, going to Athos would have been like jumping out of the frying pan and straight into the fire. The preparations for autocephaly were probably the real reason for his journey.
Indeed, some sources say that there was only one coronation in Stefan's Serbia: with the Pope's crown, but in Orthodox style, and with Sava himself placing the crown on Stefan's head. It seems that Sava still respected the Pope (while staying Orthodox and never accepting the Pope's universal pretensions); and that he was fine with the entire process (since it did not involve anyone actually converting to Catholicism).

Acquiring autocephaly for the Serbian church may be just as easy as in OTL. Though Byzantium is stronger, it will still be weak for some time due to the corrupt and incompetent Angeloi emperors. It may become necessary to grant concessions to Byzantium's Orthodox neighbors.

 

[Damian0358]

I think the hostility between Orthodoxy and Catholicism in those times is often exaggerated. It is unlikely that Sava was really protesting Stefan's relations with the Pope; leaving for Mount Athos in this context would have made little sense, since Mount Athos itself was in the hands of a Latin Empire, and had temporarily accepted the authority of the Pope (if only at the point of a sword). Had Sava really been opposed to his brother's policies, going to Athos would have been like jumping out of the frying pan and straight into the fire. The preparations for autocephaly were probably the real reason for his journey.
Indeed, some sources say that there was only one coronation in Stefan's Serbia: with the Pope's crown, but in Orthodox style, and with Sava himself placing the crown on Stefan's head. It seems that Sava still respected the Pope (while staying Orthodox and never accepting the Pope's universal pretensions); and that he was fine with the entire process (since it did not involve anyone actually converting to Catholicism).

Information on Stefan's coronation from that time is contradictory - Domentian wrote that the coronation was performed by a papal legate, most likely in the Catholic style, whilst Theodosius wrote that it was Sava himself who crowned him, obviously in the Orthodox style. I myself am of the opinion that there might have been two coronations, one done by a papal legate in 1217 in the Catholic style, and a second done by Sava sometime after 1219 in the Orthodox style. I would imagine that the Pope would closely follow any news regarding those who had requested crowns from him, which is why I have this opinion, though as I understand it it is generally accepted that only one coronation had happened, and that is the former one. Either way, I do agree on the fact that Sava may have respected the Pope, seeing as he resumed his good relations with his brother following his receiving of the crown, but making sure that the head of the Serbian Church was appointed by Constantinople, and not Rome.

Acquiring autocephaly for the Serbian church may be just as easy as in OTL. Though Byzantium is stronger, it will still be weak for some time due to the corrupt and incompetent Angeloi emperors. It may become necessary to grant concessions to Byzantium's Orthodox neighbors.

I actually hadn't considered the Angeloi, so what you say might be true. I would still imagine that autocephaly would be delayed though, with the mightier Bulgarians possibly attempting something to strengthen the autocephaly of their church, possibly even elevating it to the status of a patriarchate, something they had been struggling to do since 1186. Though if they tried to raise it to that status, then there might be major conflict between the newly raised Bulgarian Patriarchate and the newly established Catholic Primate and Archbishop of All Bulgaria and Walachia. Byzantium might just risk weakening the influence of the Ecumenical Patriarchate just to stop the rising influence of the Pope, that is if they were competent to realize this opportunity.

 

[Ilúphatar]

This is developing into a great TL, an excellent accomplishment for your first.

Thanks

A question: would the Holy Roman Empire get involved in the Istrian War, perhaps to "impose Imperial authority on Venice"? And what are the Hungarians thinking about?

At present, the conflict between Philip of Swabia (of the Hohenstaufen dynasty) and Otto of Brunswick for the title of Holy Roman Emperor is ongoing. Philip supports the Dalmatians due to their mutual opposition to the Lombard League, of which Venice, Verona and Padua are prominent members; Otto supports the Venetians because of their common dislike for the Hohenstaufen clan. Both sides are too busy fighting one another to actively intervene, however.

The Hungarians aren't acting all that differently ITTL than they did IOTL. The fall of Zara wasn't enough to switch Hungary's focus to Venice rather than Bulgaria in real life, so the success of the League of Dalmatia ITTL means they have even less reason to divert forces against Venice.

i'm a serb, ask me your answers :^)

I might take you up on that offer

We did give Ragusa a free trade agreement tho, in 1186

Interesting... perhaps that agreement could be extended to the rest of Dalmatia at some point. We'll see.

In fact, it was under Sicilian overlordship in 1185-92 and nominal Byzantine overlordship after 1192.

Ah good, I was right then. ITTL, however, Ragusa is likely to be drawn into Zara's orbit through the League of Dalmatia.

If Hungary has benefited from this scenario, then there's a chance that Vukan may win the dynastic war and become King of Serbia under Hungarian influence.

Perhaps, but Hungary hasn't benefited enormously. AFAIK, the Hungarians did not take extensive measures against Venice IOTL, so there won't be much change.

(or should we said Haemic?)

Quite. I expect 'Balkan' might still come into use in the Islamic world, however (there are Turks in Anatolia, after all).

If Zara, and the larger Dalmatian League, reached the same status as Venice in terms of political importance, a Zaratin wife might just work

They might at some point, but whether Zara will reach that level of power within a reasonable timeframe is questionable.

Though Byzantium is stronger, it will still be weak for some time due to the corrupt and incompetent Angeloi emperors. It may become necessary to grant concessions to Byzantium's Orthodox neighbors.

Indeed it might. The Empire is not going to be in good shape even without the Fourth Crusade. Perhaps opportunities for reform may arise ITTL.

if they were competent to realize this opportunity.

'If' being the operative word here.

 

[Damian0358]

They might at some point, but whether Zara will reach that level of power within a reasonable timeframe is questionable.

In that case, if Zara doesn't reach that sort of level by 1216, then Stefan might just look for a different Catholic wife that might help him achieve his goal of kingship.

 

[Ilúphatar]

Update! Sorry it's just setup, but the battle itself should be in the next post.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

'The Battle of the Lagoon began on the 28th of February, three days after the arrival of the Dalmatian, Pisan, Genoese and other allied fleets at Chioggia. It's size and scale outmatched even the Battle of Zara. The remnants of the Grand Fleet and as many other ships as the Venetians could muster were arrayed in the defence of the city, over thirty warships in total. Enrico Dandolo had also seized many merchant ships, loading them with mercenary warriors of Verona and Padua. Present too were impressed sailors from Istria; some forced to fight for Venice, others who found Venetian rule preferable to the alternative. In the sheltered and enclosed Lagoon, the larger size and greater offensive capabilities of the Venetian galleys would prove an advantage, not a weakness.

Against Venice lay the combined fleets of many of her enemies. The Dalmatians, under the command of the Zaratin-Croat noble Domaldus, made up the largest part of the coalition. Ships of Zara, Ragusa, Spalatro and many other Dalmatian cities were present in that force. Also there were flotillas from Genoa, Pisa, and Gaeta, under their own commands but with orders to cooperate closely with Domaldus. From the Republic of Ancona, five great galleys had come to lend their aid. Chioggia lent all the assistance it could to its new allies, recognising that the approaching battle could be the sole opportunity to throw off Venetian hegemony. Individual ships from the Empire of the Greeks* and various other polities has come on their own, often simply to avenge themselves on the Venetian Republic. In total, the fleet of the League of Dalmatia and its allies was over forty strong.

But as the extent and nature of the Lagoon lent themselves well to the Venetians, it also proved the opposite for the coalition. Agility and speed would do them little good in an enclosed environment. As the sun rose on the morning of the 28th, the fate of the Adriatic hung in the balance.'

Extract from - The Istrian War
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*English for 'Imperium Graecorum', a term sometimes used in the Latin West for the Byzantine Empire.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Situation in the Adriatic on the eve of the Battle of the Lagoon:

 

[Ilúphatar]

Update!
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

'Reports concerning the course of the Battle of the Lagoon are confused and contradictory. The events of that day are impossible to define without fault, primarily due to the close-packed, chaotic nature of the sea-battle. However, a some details are thought to have been preserved correctly by contemporary historians.

It is known, for example, that the Venetians were the first to act. As dawn broke on the morning of the 28th, lookouts perched among the spires of Chioggia espied the Venetian fleet advancing with full sails towards the southern end of the lagoon in wedge formation. The allied fleet was swiftly roused with horns, and sallied from the harbour in under an hour.

It is known that the two fleets met just west of the island of Pellestrina, roughly halfway down its long arc. The precise nature of the meeting remains in dispute.

Pro-Venetian historians, such as Tobias Gruber of Vienna, claim that the Venetians carved a swathe of destruction through the ranks of Dalmatian and allied ships, almost severing the enemy force in two. Pro-Zaratin scholars contrastingly maintain that the Venetian 'wedge' shattered against the resistance put up by the coalition. The truth likely lies somewhere in between. Whatever the case, the battle was not one of motion and manoeuvre as the Battle of Zara had been. Rather, it was one of attrition and, often, literal hand-to-hand combat as rival sailors came in reach of one another, such was the closeness of the engagement.

When the smoke cleared, late into the afternoon, it was clear the Zaratins and their allies had won. The Venetian fleet was vanquished, and those few vessels which remained scuttled themselves or surrendered their command to Domaldus of Zara. But the victory came at great cost.

Almost three-quarters of the coalition ships had been lost. Even the flagship of Zara had been sunk, and had forced Domaldus and the other leaders of the fleet to take refuge on a Pisan vessel. Just a single Anconine ship remained, and the Genoese commander had been slain in the battle, increasing their own losses. The only Gaetans that survived had placed themselves under the command of Zara, so greatly were their numbers reduced.

Despite their heavy losses, the Dalmatians were the clear and undeniable victors. Venice had nothing left to give. For five days the allied fleet blockaded the city, once called the 'Jewel of the Adriatic'. On the sixth day*, Doge Enrico Dandolo himself surrendered the city to Zara.'

Extract from - Great Battles and how they Changed the World
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*For those who do not wish to calculate the date, the surrender took place on the 6th of March, 1203. The Istrian War lasted 115 days, officially beginning on the 11th November 1202 (though hostilities commenced earlier, on the the 10th October 1202) and ending on the aforementioned date.

 

[Ilúphatar]

Update!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

'The Treaty of Chioggia defined the balance of power in the Adriatic and the Mediterranean in the aftermath of the catastrophic defeat suffered by Venice in the Istrian War. Envoys were dispatched from Zara, the principle victor of the war, to all the allied and enemy states, summoning them to a congress at Chioggia. Invited also were representatives from other important Mediterranean countries, the influence of which could not be ignored. Coalition representatives came from the League of Dalmatia (negotiating through Zara, the city of the Dalmacie Princeps), Genoa, Pisa, Gaeta*, Ancona and Chioggia. Venice, Padua and Verona sent delegates to negotiate the best terms they could. Also in attendance were ambassadors from the Constantinopolitan Empire, the Papal States, Philip of Swabia, the Kingdom of Sicily, and the Kingdom of Hungary (also representing Croatia, with which it was bound by personal union). To prevent disharmony between the Hungarians, Papacy and Constantinopolitans, no representatives were summoned from Serbia.

Negotiations took several weeks. While the Venetians were now at the mercy of the coalition, the rival interests of many of the states allied to Zara extended the debate far beyond expectation. The final terms of the treaty were announced at the end of March, on the 27th of that month, 1203.

Venice was stripped of its conquered territories** in Dalmatia and Istria. The commercial interests of the city were divided amongst the victorious powers. Venetian merchants were to be expelled from Cyprus; and Pisa, Genoa and Ancona were to divide the Venetian exclaves in the rest of the Crusader States between themselves. In Constantinople, the large Venetian quarter (it had been enlarged by the inclusion of the old Amalfitan quarter in the early 12th century) was allotted to Zara, Ragusa and Spalatro. This damaged the Venetian economic position in the Constantinopolitan Empire extensively.

Genoa was confirmed in its possession of the island of Corfu, no longer held by Genoese privateers but an official territory of the Republic.

The independence of the Republic of Ancona under the overlordship of the Papacy and the protection of the League of Dalmatia was reconfirmed and recognised by all parties, including Venice and Philip of Swabia. The terra firma of Ancona was agreed to by Papal representatives.

Venetian preeminence in the Lagoon was shattered. Chioggia was permitted to annex the island of Pellestrina and to fortify it, while Lido, while remaining Venetian, would remain undefended and without habitation.

The ancient rights and liberties of the city of Gaeta were confirmed, most importantly by Sicily (of which the city was a part) and Pisa, which had briefly occupied the territory in 1194. The city was permitted to retain its own coinage and navy. Unlike Ancona, however, it remained official territory of the Kingdom of Sicily rather than becoming an independent state.

Verona and Padua were fortunate - they avoided crippling consequences and escaped with a simple indemnity to the victorious powers.

Perhaps most importantly to Mediterranean politics, the League of Dalmatia was to be retained after the cession of hostilities. This was agreed for several reasons: a desire to prevent any Venetian resurgence; Hungary's decision to exercise control over Dalmatia by using Zara as a 'focal point'; and, simply put, to commemorate the common cause for which all the Dalmatian cities had fought. It is thought that this article of the Treaty of Chioggia laid the foundations for Dalmatian proto-nationalism in the following centuries.

To the League were admitted the twelve great Dalmatian and Istrian cities: Zara, Spalatro, Ragusa, Tragura, Arba, Veglia, Crepsa, Fiume, Cattaro, Pola, Muggia and Trieste.'

- Extract from - The Decline and Fall of the Republic of Venice (Italian source***)
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*Despite being a part of the Kingdom of Sicily.
**In case anyone wishes to know, the Venetian position in Istria collapsed after word of the Battle of the Lagoon because common knowledge. The besiegers of Floim (Reka) quickly surrendered, and the Veronese and Paduan mercenaries in Pola, Muggia and Trieste deserted en masse. Remaining Venetian forces withdrew to the major cities on mainland Istria to await terms.
***Meaning from the Italian peninsular and of an Italian dialect, not necessarily a future united Italian state.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

An illustration of some of the terms of the Treaty of Chioggia, showing the exact territory under the jurisdiction of the League of Dalmatia:

 

[Yanez de Gomera]

Good updates (although it is yet possible that Venice might rise again to challenge Dalmatia)!

I have a small nitpick: in your map it should be Genosse Corfu, not Cyprus. I also think that the Byzantines might strongly object to a Genoese Cyprus and without the IV crusade they might even have the means to do something about it, or at least force some formal suzerainety on it and extract a tribute from Genoa for its use.

 

[Vuru]

Hmm you seem to be calling it Reka instead of Rijeka

Croats adopt ekavica?

 

[MakiRoc]

Hmm you seem to be calling it Reka instead of Rijeka

Croats adopt ekavica?

Chakavian ekavian was used around that area, but I believe that the Chakavian ikavian version "Rika" was a bit more popular. I believe that the full name in Croatian was "Rika Svetog Vida". Unfortunately my knowledge of Rijeka's medieval history is somewhat limited. Maybe someone from Rijeka could chime in.

 

[Ilúphatar]

Good updates (although it is yet possible that Venice might rise again to challenge Dalmatia)!

I have a small nitpick: in your map it should be Genosse Corfu, not Cyprus. I also think that the Byzantines might strongly object to a Genoese Cyprus and without the IV crusade they might even have the means to do something about it, or at least force some formal suzerainety on it and extract a tribute from Genoa for its use.

Indeed it might! Venice is still powerfully placed as the greatest city in the Lagoon, one of the greatest receptacles of commerce in the Mediterranean.

Thank you for spotting that. I shall avert the blame to my younger brother, who decided to spout the names of random place names (including Cyprus) while I was making the map. I'll fix it.

Indeed they might, though given the incompetence of the Angeloi, I doubt the Empire could protest greatly. Also, Cyprus was independent by then.

On the off chance that you followed my lead and accidentally wrote Cyprus instead of Corfu, the Genoese already de facto ruled Corfu by 1202, and Constantinople could do nothing about it. Confirming Genoese rule at Chioggia has made it de jure outside the Empire, to which the Greeks agreed.

Hmm you seem to be calling it Reka instead of Rijeka

Croats adopt ekavica?

Chakavian ekavian was used around that area, but I believe that the Chakavian ikavian version "Rika" was a bit more popular. I believe that the full name in Croatian was "Rika Svetog Vida". Unfortunately my knowledge of Rijeka's medieval history is somewhat limited. Maybe someone from Rijeka could chime in.

Unfortunately, I was unable to find the Dalmatian for Rijeka. I knew that Reka was the name used in 'other Croatian dialects' (according to Wikipedia, to my shame) which I took to include Dalmatian. It turns out to instead be taken from a number of Serbo-Croatian dialects.

Perhaps 'Floim' might be suitable? According to this English-Dalmatian translator (https://glosbe.com/en/dlm/river), that is Dalmatian for 'river'. Apparently, the various names for Rijeka mean 'river'. I'm afraid I have never been a linguist

 

[Vuru]

That seems appropriate

 

[Damian0358]

Considering the fact that it is called Fiume in Italian, as well as the fact that apparently there is a Wiktionary page for the Dalmatian word for river, I think it would be safe to assume that Floim is the Dalmatian name.

 

[MakiRoc]

Well now that Rijeka is in the Dalmatian league then the official name can be changed to Floim (nice find btw). The local Croat population would still use Rika/Reka.
Personally I think that the Latin version Flumen has a nice ring to it, and was used a lot internationally at that time, but Floim is really good too.

 

[Damian0358]

Perhaps Flumen, Floim and Rika/Reka can all appear depending on the source the update is extracted from.