Dalmatia Ascendant
I don't think it would, but if it becomes an issue, one could just slap on a * if need be.
I meant Corfu, of course, and this is quite embarassing... making a mistake while correcting another is quite frustrating...
For Venice I think one of the biggest problems will be an independent Chioggia allied with a powerful league: a very important resource for Venice was the exploitation of the sea salt farms in the lagoon and most of those where closer to Chioggia than Venice.
Never mind!
Yes, the Venetian salt trade will be severely damaged by the expansion of Chioggia to include around half of the Lagoon. Perhaps it will be the catalyst for another war later on.
Out of interest, how long do people think it will take Venice to recover from this? Although their assets in the Black Sea, Constantinople, Dalmatia and the Levant are pretty much lost, they have not been barred from reestablishing those assets (no maritime republic wishes to set such a damning precedent) later. And of course their interests in the rest of Byzantium and Egypt are still intact.
I personally don't think they will, not to their former level. If the Byzantines have any sense they can start to replace Venetian traders with Roman traders, which will be a boon, perhaps trading into Genovese Corfu. Venice has been side-lined by the League and Genoa can step in and dominate. Unless Venice somehow joins the League (what a turn for the books eh?), it has been relegated to yet another rich Italian city.
Update! I also edited the last post because of a few errors and the need to implement 'Floim' 
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'The fifty years following the end of the Istrian War saw significant geopolitical shifts in the Adriatic and Mediterranean Sea. The power of Venice had been utterly broken, ending its supremacy over the other maritime republics. In its place rose a multitude of smaller states to fill the power vacuum.
Undoubtedly, the Republic of Genoa benefited the most from Venice's defeat. With its principle commercial competitor gone, and the infrequent Venetian-Pisan alliances that occasionally came to fruition now undoubtedly ended for good, Genoa was well positioned to take the place of Venice as the principle merchant power of the Mediterranean. In Acre, the Genoese received the bulk of the Venetian Quarter, allowing them to dominate the harbour of the city and begin to monopolise a number of different commodities that were transported via the trading hubs of Ayyubid Palestine. In the Black Sea also, the Genoese far and away outpaced the other, smaller powers, establishing bountiful commercial interests in Caffa (of the Tauris Peninsular), Varna and Trebizond.
The Republic of Pisa also benefited from its takeover of Venetian possessions in the eastern Mediterranean. In Cyprus in particular, Pisan fortunes boomed. The commerce of the island began to depend more and more upon Pisan couriers. In Thrace and Bithnyia, Pisan interests dominated as the diluted power of the Dalmatian cities took the place of Venice. The balance of power in the western Mediterranean, however, began to shift in favour of Genoa without the counterweight of Venice to restrict their actions. Troubling happenings for Pisa included the easing of tensions between Genoa and Sicily as the century drew on; the inheritance of the Sardinian Giudicato of Logudoro by the Genoese family of Doria in 1259, which challenged Pisan dominance of the island; and the rise of the Republic of Florence (re-declared in 1197) to compete with the city for dominance in Tuscany.
Hungary emerged victorious in the Haemic* Wars of 1202-3, having conquered five districts of Bulgaria and bringing their vassal, Grand Prince Vukan, to the throne of Serbia under King Emeric of Hungary. Emeric himself survived an almost lethal illness in 1204, and defeated his brother Andrew in a civil war for the throne of the Kingdom in the same year. Kaloyan of Bulgaria attempted to capitalise on the instability of Hungary and launched an invasion of Serbia to restore Stefan, brother of Vukan, to his former position. Though initially successful, Bulgaria was pushed back once Emeric recovered his health in early 1205. In 1207, the King amended the significance of the title, 'Dalmacie Princeps' by awarding it to the successive Comes of Zara in perpetuity, at the discretion of the Hungarian Crown.
In the Adriatic, the League of Dalmatia continued to hold under the leadership of Zara. However, there was little effort towards centralisation, and Zara's influence was extended but little relative to the pre-war situation. Nevertheless, by instituting cooperation at the highest level, the power of the Dalmatian cities were amplified. In Constantinople, the Quarters of Zara, Ragusa and Spalatro pooled resources and cooperated closely to improve their commercial position relative to Genoa and Pisa. The County Palatine of Cephalonia and Zakynthos, a vassal of the Kingdom of Sicily, gradually came became the focal point for economic competition between Genoa and Zara, escalating tensions almost to the brink of war in 1212. This saw an increased level of cooperation between The Dalmatians and Pisa. Dalmatian influence over Egyptian trade steadily increased as the century progressed.
The smaller cities of the Adriatic which enjoyed close relationships with Zara, Ancona and Chioggia, exploited their newfound freedom from the threat of Venice by slowly expanding their mercantile influence overseas, often in cooperation with their Dalmatian allies. The Zara-Ancona commercial route, intended to bypass Venice, continued to grow in importance. In the Lombard Lagoon**, Chioggia became the leading city of the sea-salt trade, having won many of the deposits from Venice in the Istrian War.'
The post-Venice era of Mediterranean history had begun.'
Extract from - A Study of Mediterranean Geopolitics (English)
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*The Balkans IOTL.
**The Venetian Lagoon IOTL.
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I'll address the Byzantines and the Holy Roman Empire next time.
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'The fifty years following the end of the Istrian War saw significant geopolitical shifts in the Adriatic and Mediterranean Sea. The power of Venice had been utterly broken, ending its supremacy over the other maritime republics. In its place rose a multitude of smaller states to fill the power vacuum.
Undoubtedly, the Republic of Genoa benefited the most from Venice's defeat. With its principle commercial competitor gone, and the infrequent Venetian-Pisan alliances that occasionally came to fruition now undoubtedly ended for good, Genoa was well positioned to take the place of Venice as the principle merchant power of the Mediterranean. In Acre, the Genoese received the bulk of the Venetian Quarter, allowing them to dominate the harbour of the city and begin to monopolise a number of different commodities that were transported via the trading hubs of Ayyubid Palestine. In the Black Sea also, the Genoese far and away outpaced the other, smaller powers, establishing bountiful commercial interests in Caffa (of the Tauris Peninsular), Varna and Trebizond.
The Republic of Pisa also benefited from its takeover of Venetian possessions in the eastern Mediterranean. In Cyprus in particular, Pisan fortunes boomed. The commerce of the island began to depend more and more upon Pisan couriers. In Thrace and Bithnyia, Pisan interests dominated as the diluted power of the Dalmatian cities took the place of Venice. The balance of power in the western Mediterranean, however, began to shift in favour of Genoa without the counterweight of Venice to restrict their actions. Troubling happenings for Pisa included the easing of tensions between Genoa and Sicily as the century drew on; the inheritance of the Sardinian Giudicato of Logudoro by the Genoese family of Doria in 1259, which challenged Pisan dominance of the island; and the rise of the Republic of Florence (re-declared in 1197) to compete with the city for dominance in Tuscany.
Hungary emerged victorious in the Haemic* Wars of 1202-3, having conquered five districts of Bulgaria and bringing their vassal, Grand Prince Vukan, to the throne of Serbia under King Emeric of Hungary. Emeric himself survived an almost lethal illness in 1204, and defeated his brother Andrew in a civil war for the throne of the Kingdom in the same year. Kaloyan of Bulgaria attempted to capitalise on the instability of Hungary and launched an invasion of Serbia to restore Stefan, brother of Vukan, to his former position. Though initially successful, Bulgaria was pushed back once Emeric recovered his health in early 1205. In 1207, the King amended the significance of the title, 'Dalmacie Princeps' by awarding it to the successive Comes of Zara in perpetuity, at the discretion of the Hungarian Crown.
In the Adriatic, the League of Dalmatia continued to hold under the leadership of Zara. However, there was little effort towards centralisation, and Zara's influence was extended but little relative to the pre-war situation. Nevertheless, by instituting cooperation at the highest level, the power of the Dalmatian cities were amplified. In Constantinople, the Quarters of Zara, Ragusa and Spalatro pooled resources and cooperated closely to improve their commercial position relative to Genoa and Pisa. The County Palatine of Cephalonia and Zakynthos, a vassal of the Kingdom of Sicily, gradually came became the focal point for economic competition between Genoa and Zara, escalating tensions almost to the brink of war in 1212. This saw an increased level of cooperation between The Dalmatians and Pisa. Dalmatian influence over Egyptian trade steadily increased as the century progressed.
The smaller cities of the Adriatic which enjoyed close relationships with Zara, Ancona and Chioggia, exploited their newfound freedom from the threat of Venice by slowly expanding their mercantile influence overseas, often in cooperation with their Dalmatian allies. The Zara-Ancona commercial route, intended to bypass Venice, continued to grow in importance. In the Lombard Lagoon**, Chioggia became the leading city of the sea-salt trade, having won many of the deposits from Venice in the Istrian War.'
The post-Venice era of Mediterranean history had begun.'
Extract from - A Study of Mediterranean Geopolitics (English)
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*The Balkans IOTL.
**The Venetian Lagoon IOTL.
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I'll address the Byzantines and the Holy Roman Empire next time.
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You mad man, you went ahead with Vukanian Serbia! Sava must be feeling passive aggressive towards his brother right now, and I doubt the existing Orthodox populace, church or peasantry, will like this. This is no doubt going to backfire on Stefan Vukan II Nemanjić, the Apostate and the Hungarian, Grand Prince of Serbia under King Emeric of Hungary, Croatia and Serbia.
I did not see the recovery of Emeric coming, and with the apparent five Bulgarian districts/bishoprics, it seems as though Kaloyan's attempts in regards to the Pope may have fallen through. I must wonder about Bosnia though.
I did not see the recovery of Emeric coming, and with the apparent five Bulgarian districts/bishoprics, it seems as though Kaloyan's attempts in regards to the Pope may have fallen through. I must wonder about Bosnia though.
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As much as I would want to believe that, Vukan had already accepted Papal supremacy at this point, and was the one to inform the Pope about the Bosnian heresy. He converted to Catholicism as part of his deal with Emeric. He is an apostate now.
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I'll explore the consequences of a Catholic Serbian King ruling over an Orthodox populace soon
It will be a challenge to write about, so input will be welcome. The reaction of the Byzantines and its impact on the intended Serbian autocephaly, for instance. Also, I'll need some information on the situation in Bosnia, to make sure it's as realistic as possible.
If you mean surreal, then perhaps. Though had Emeric survived, it's very likely that he would have propped up Vukan to maintain Serbia as part of Hungary's sphere of influence.
It will be a challenge to write about, so input will be welcome. The reaction of the Byzantines and its impact on the intended Serbian autocephaly, for instance. Also, I'll need some information on the situation in Bosnia, to make sure it's as realistic as possible.
If you mean surreal, then perhaps. Though had Emeric survived, it's very likely that he would have propped up Vukan to maintain Serbia as part of Hungary's sphere of influence.
Yes, by twilight zone I meant surreal and entertaining. Keep the posts coming.
I'll explore the consequences of a Catholic Serbian King ruling over an Orthodox populace soon
It will be a challenge to write about, so input will be welcome. The reaction of the Byzantines and its impact on the intended Serbian autocephaly, for instance. Also, I'll need some information on the situation in Bosnia, to make sure it's as realistic as possible.
A Vukanian Serbia is very likely going to speed up the formation of Serbian autocephaly, in order to begin counteracting the intrusion of Roman Catholicism. So it effectively balances out what I said earlier, meaning that OTL 1219 is a feasible date once more. Perhaps even slightly earlier depending on how the cards are played.
Vukan, whilst officially Catholic now, is more than likely going to try and do his best to appease the Orthodox populace. Perhaps he might try his best to compromise with the church figures in the region, adopting a style of Catholicism more reminiscent of Serbian orthodoxy, ala Eastern Catholicism/Uniatism, in order to ease them in. However, with Stefan still alive, I think it would be a tough sell. I would also imagine that, unlike OTL, Vukan won't try to reconcile with his brothers, as not only would that mean allowing his brother to once more rule over his former holdings in Raška (as Stefan allowed Vukan to keep his original holdings in Zeta after being beaten), but also giving concessions to Orthodox folk, the perceived enemy as of right now.
Whilst I don't know whether or not we might see it, after Sava is consecrated as the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, we could see the potential use of an anathema if Sava realizes that his apostate of a brother is not willing to reason with him. Emeric has a lot of propping up to do in the coming future if that happens, with the hardcore Orthodox only recognizing Stefan as Grand Prince. Stefan might use this opportunity to get himself crowned by Sava in the Orthodox style in order to finally become a king, a claimant against Emeric, recognized by both Byzantium and Bulgaria... that is if the Byzzies are smart enough to realize that it is a good idea and allow it.
I myself am not exactly sure on the situation in Bosnia - what I do know is this; in 1199, Vukan informed the Pope of heresy in Bosnia, on the behalf of the Hungarians, as they tried endlessly to take complete control of the region away from the Banate that existed there. However, the Ban of Bosnia at the time, Kulin, masterfully managed to convince them that not only were they good Catholics, but also that confirmed his own allegiance to Catholicism through the declaration at Bilino Polje in 1203. So, for now, he stopped any crusades headed Bosnia's way, but the practice of the heresy continued as normal shortly after the declaration. After Kulin's death in 1204, he was succeeded by Stefan Kulinić, assumed to be his son. He was a proud Catholic and did his part to try and stomp the heresy, moving away from his dad's policies. But the heretics were stubborn, rejecting missionaries from Rome in an instant, eventually leading to them overthrowing Stefan in 1232 and the Pope calling for a crusade in 1234, which Hungary happily responded. But the crusade failed, with the Hungarians being forced in a retreat as a result of the Mongol invasion. I'll stop here for now though, as butterflies could still change things. An informed Bosnian would be incredibly useful right now.
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I'll explore the consequences of a Catholic Serbian King ruling over an Orthodox populace soon
It will be a challenge to write about, so input will be welcome. The reaction of the Byzantines and its impact on the intended Serbian autocephaly, for instance. Also, I'll need some information on the situation in Bosnia, to make sure it's as realistic as possible.
At the time Bosnia was in a conflict with both Hungary and Serbia. In 1200, Pope Innocent asked Emeric of Hungary (as the overlord of Kulin of Bosnia) to attack and weed out the heresy from his realm. Some time after, Emeric began energetically demanding that Kulin expel the heretic priests and leaders and confiscate the estates of all who don't abandon the heresy.
At the same time, the Orthodox branch of the Serbian dynasty (which was friendly with their Bosnian counterparts) was overthrown by Vukan (who was not friendly with Kulin at all). So Kulin started intervening in the Serbian civil war - attacking Vukan to help Stefan. This intervention was yet another source of conflict between the Bosnians and Emeric, who backed the opposite faction.
In OTL, the issue was resolved with the aid of a Papal legate, who Kulin skillfully deceived that there was no real heresy in his realm (this was the 1203 declaration at Bilino Polje, already mentioned by Damian0358). The Papal legate then traveled to Hungary and badgered Emeric into accepting this outcome and laying aside his plans to intervene in Bosnia. Emeric was soon distracted by other events and died shortly after. Meanwhile, another enemy of the Bosnian ruler and his barely concealed heresy was removed from the picture when Vukan lost the civil war and Stefan returned to the Serbian throne.
In this TL, Emeric is alive and strong and Serbia is still ruled by Vukan, so things aren't looking too good for Bosnia in general and the heresy in particular. But that's up to your judgement, of course.
("Heresy" is the easiest word to use for the Bosnian brand of Christianity, but it's not strictly true, at least not in the early 1200s. There were a few real heretics mixed with the priesthood and the population, but only a few; it's just that the priesthood in Bosnia was really really out of touch with the rituals, administration and theology of modern Catholicism and "mainstream" Christianity in general. To Papal emissaries and other visitors from the heartlands of mainstream Christianity, the behavior of the Bosnian priests and monks looked bewildering and downright heretical...but it was a product of neglect and lack of oversight, rather than any intentional deviation. Also, the Bosnian church was never dualist or Bogumil - not in the 1200s, and not after. And if it was ever "folksy" and semi-underground to being with, it quickly became an "establishment" church - deeply intertwined with the aristocracy and the court much like the mainstream ones.)
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Update! My apologies for the delay.
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'In the Constantinopolitan Empire, all was not well. The Emperor, Alexios III Angelos, held a reputation little better than that of his predecessor. Though the potential threat of the exiled son of Isaac, Alexius, had receded with the defeat of Venice, the Empire remained in a dire situation, stagnant and divided.
The crisis came in 1205*, with the secession of the theme of Chaldia to form the Empire of Trebizond under David and Alexios Komnenos. The region, having hosted separatist tendencies for centuries, required little encouragement to break with Constantinople. The cities of Sinope and Oinaion quickly joined the revolt.
At the same time, Theofore Laskaris, son-in-law of the Emperor, finally tired of Alexios' incompetence and revolted against him. Nicaea and the other cities of Bithynia rallied to his cause. The authority of the Emperor in Anatolia was shattered.
Taking advantage of the chaos, the various Turkic sultanates of Rum began to erode at the Greek territories. Ancyra fell in 1209, and the Islamic armies reached the walls of Ephesus by 1210, having seized the southern coast of Asia Minor.
To the north, in the Holy Roman Empire, a brief peace was finally reached with the victory of Philip of Swabia over Otto of Brunswick in 1206 at the Battle of Wassenberg. Pope Innocent brought the two together to negotiate at Cologne. The meeting was fraught with mutual antagonism and dislike on both sides. After narrowly surviving a murder attempt by the insane Count of Bavaria, Philip found himself again at war with Otto, who had refused the generous terms offered. A last stand was made by Otto in the city of Brunswick, before the ultimate victory of Philip and the death of his rival in the siege.
By 1210, the Empires of East and West stood weakened and disunited, but alive.'
Extract from - Rome: Wien or Constantinople? (Germanic)
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*Just a year later than IOTL. Seems plausible given the weakness of Byzantium at the time.
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'In the Constantinopolitan Empire, all was not well. The Emperor, Alexios III Angelos, held a reputation little better than that of his predecessor. Though the potential threat of the exiled son of Isaac, Alexius, had receded with the defeat of Venice, the Empire remained in a dire situation, stagnant and divided.
The crisis came in 1205*, with the secession of the theme of Chaldia to form the Empire of Trebizond under David and Alexios Komnenos. The region, having hosted separatist tendencies for centuries, required little encouragement to break with Constantinople. The cities of Sinope and Oinaion quickly joined the revolt.
At the same time, Theofore Laskaris, son-in-law of the Emperor, finally tired of Alexios' incompetence and revolted against him. Nicaea and the other cities of Bithynia rallied to his cause. The authority of the Emperor in Anatolia was shattered.
Taking advantage of the chaos, the various Turkic sultanates of Rum began to erode at the Greek territories. Ancyra fell in 1209, and the Islamic armies reached the walls of Ephesus by 1210, having seized the southern coast of Asia Minor.
To the north, in the Holy Roman Empire, a brief peace was finally reached with the victory of Philip of Swabia over Otto of Brunswick in 1206 at the Battle of Wassenberg. Pope Innocent brought the two together to negotiate at Cologne. The meeting was fraught with mutual antagonism and dislike on both sides. After narrowly surviving a murder attempt by the insane Count of Bavaria, Philip found himself again at war with Otto, who had refused the generous terms offered. A last stand was made by Otto in the city of Brunswick, before the ultimate victory of Philip and the death of his rival in the siege.
By 1210, the Empires of East and West stood weakened and disunited, but alive.'
Extract from - Rome: Wien or Constantinople? (Germanic)
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*Just a year later than IOTL. Seems plausible given the weakness of Byzantium at the time.
The title of the book this excerpt is from is most interesting...
I like how butterflies saved Philip and I suppose the disgregatiom in Anatolia is plausible: maybe you could add some despot usurping Crete, just like it happened in Cyprus some years before? The island would tgen most likely end up in the Genoese sphere of influence.
I understand however if you don't want to weaken Constantinople too much.
I like how butterflies saved Philip and I suppose the disgregatiom in Anatolia is plausible: maybe you could add some despot usurping Crete, just like it happened in Cyprus some years before? The island would tgen most likely end up in the Genoese sphere of influence.
I understand however if you don't want to weaken Constantinople too much.
Vuru
Banned
I think i know what will occur now
Serbia, as a Hungarian puppet, will spread south into former Byzantium, like an early Serbian empire, so it's a buffer for the Turk invaders, Bulgaria is probably made independent and a puppet of Hungary too
In Anatolia maybe some sort of big Trebizond?
Serbia, as a Hungarian puppet, will spread south into former Byzantium, like an early Serbian empire, so it's a buffer for the Turk invaders, Bulgaria is probably made independent and a puppet of Hungary too
In Anatolia maybe some sort of big Trebizond?
I doubt I'll get far enough into the future for that to be addressed, m'fraid.
That's Philip and Emeric that have survived due to butterflies. This Europe will look very, very different to OTL.
I doubt the Trebizondians will be able to project power into southern Anatolia. But perhaps local rulers/the Turks will 'assume administration', as it were.