Dalmatia Ascendant

[Yanez de Gomera]

I cannot really like any TL that includes an earlier fall of Venice but this has great potential. It is always nice to have TLs exploring smaller or lesser known states, so keep up the good work!

 

[Achaemenid Rome]

I actually live there, so I know that very well.

Have you even read that article?

Cool, then you understand what I'm talking about. Btw, I live in Zadar.

Yes I have read it, very carefully, have you?

This is going to turn out to be a sitcom moment where both of you guys live on the same street.

 

[General Ripper]

This is going to turn out to be a sitcom moment where both of you guys live on the same street.

Yeah. But were not. He lives in Zadar, I live about 150-200 km from him.

 

[General Ripper]

Lets say that we agree that we don't agree and leave it at that.

It's fine by me, but I find it odd that you cite here an article you don't agree with. But anyway, let's let the man to write his thread without disrupting him with discussion.

 

[Iluvatar]

Update! Apologies that these primarily concern Venice at present, but Zara will come into it soon.
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'The 'Dalmatian Campaign' of the early 1200s was precipitated by 'Dandolo's Great Matter'. This was the contemporary term used to describe the debate and discussion in the Great Council of Venice concerning the fate of the Grand Fleet. Scholars of the period, including Gregorio Batano of Zara, record the length of time the Palazzo Ducale was occupied in session as between two to three days without interruption. The Council resumed session every day thereafter, for almost a month, until the 'Great Matter' was decided.

The proposal to attack Zara was abandoned. Without the Crusader army as an ally, the Great Council and the Doge doubted the ability of Venice to conquer the city. But a failure to use their fleet was unthinkable, for several reasons. These included the fact that the financial loss suffered from the reduction of commercial activity throughout 1201 would not be recompensed; the loss of prestige from failing to launch the Crusade could not be made worse by retiring the fleet; and that the vast number of sailors trained to man the fleet could not be easily stood down.

A fateful decision was made - to attack Istria, on the shores of the Adriatic, and bring its cities back under the rule of the Republic of Venice. A casus belli existed, in that Trieste, Pola and much of the peninsular had formerly accepted the hegemony of the Venetians, but had escaped its orbit. Little did the Great Council realise that their choice had set the Republic on the path towards destruction.'

Extract from - Zara, Pearl of the Adriatic

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A basic outline of the Venetian plan of attack:

Let me know if you would like simple overviews of campaigns like this one later on.

 

[Iluvatar]

I cannot really like any TL that includes an earlier fall of Venice but this has great potential. It is always nice to have TLs exploring smaller or lesser known states, so keep up the good work!

The fate of Venice isn't entirely clear in my own mind (I'd like it's history to develop organically at the TL progresses), so you'll have opportunity to get a pro-Venetian word in

 

[Iluvatar]

Update!
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'The conquest of Istria by the Venetians took only a month. Without Crusader help, the Grand Fleet could not be used to its full potential. Nevertheless, its sheer size and power alone was sufficient to cow the city of Muggia into surrender with barely any resistance. Pola and Trieste, greater cities as they were, gave battle to the Venetians at Koper Bay and amongst the Brionian Islands respectively. The Triestine fleet was utterly destroyed as it sallied forth against the Venetians - just five ships of the city safely returned to land. The Polasi navy was more fortunate, briefly holding off the Venetian naval attack through a flanking manoeuvre round the island of Brioni Grande before withdrawing south to seek refuge at Zara. The whole operation, begun on the 10th of October 1202, ended around the 28th of that same month, the date on which most of the coastal fringe of the Istrian peninsular was finally subdued.

The Republic of Venice gained supremacy over the Gulf of Trieste, Istria from Trieste to Premantura, and much of the northern Adriatic Sea. Smaller cities in the region, including Chioggia and Caorle, bent to the will of the Venetians. Doge Enrico Dandolo was reported by contemporary scholars to have 'revelled in his victory, without care for the downtrodden and destroyed', to quote Zaratin example Gregorio Batano. The ruling council in Trieste was ousted and exiled to Austria, quickly replaced with a Venetian delegation to govern the city. Dandolo himself took up residence in Trieste for a short while, to oversee the planned incorporation of the conquered territory into the Republic.

However, the success of Venice in Istria proved ultimately detrimental to the fortunes of the city. Something neither the Doge nor the Great Council could have foreseen. Venice had expected opposition from the Hungarian King, Emeric, but they little feared military retaliation due to the ongoing Hungarian conflict against Serbia and Bulgaria in the Balcanic Wars. What they did not expect was the reaction of the Dalmatian cities.

Largely autonomous at the time, though under the protection and hegemony of the Kingdom of Hungary, cities such as Ragusa, Spalatro, and Zara lay along the coast of Dalmatia. Venice had long held the desire to add the settlements into its growing empire, both to better control the Adriatic and to remove commercial rivals. The cities knew this. They also realised that a Venetian-held Istria presented an existential threat to their prosperity and trade. Thus the Istrian War began.'

Extract from - The Decline and Fall of the Republic of Venice

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Approximate strategic situation at the beginning of the Istrian War:

 

[MakiRoc]

Sorry for nitpicking but Arba is the island above the one you marked (which is Pago/Pag). I felt it was necessery to correct you because Pag contains huge salt production facilities that are of strategic economic importance. It may play an important role in your timeline.

 

[Iluvatar]

Sorry for nitpicking but Arba is the island above the one you marked (which is Pago/Pag). I felt it was necessery to correct you because Pag contains huge salt production facilities that are of strategic economic importance. It may play an important role in your timeline.

Ah, yes. I used this map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_city-states#/media/File:Dalmatian_language_map_bgiu.jpg) and the whiteness of Pago (presumably snow, or perhaps even the salt deposits you mentioned) made it look like part of Arba. I'll correct it at some point.

Pag/o may indeed play a role, though whether it will be of any significance to the Istrian War remains to be seen.

 

[Damian0358]

I wonder how the situation in Bosnia will develop in this world, along with Serbia and Bulgaria.

 

[Iluvatar]

Update! Finally, the view from Zara.
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'The beginning of the Istrian War came largely as a surprise to the Zaratin Great and Small Councils, as well as the Comes of Zara, Antonio Begna. While the ambitions of Venice concerning the Dalmatian coast was well known in the city, having defeated Venetian attacks in both 1187 and 1190 (under Comes Damiano Desinie), the threat of a joint Venetian-Crusader attack on Zara was unthinkable. The potential was not even considered in plans of the defence of the city.

The collective shock at all levels of Zaratin government and society when word of the Venetian proposal reached the city is widely recorded in numerous historical sources. Some accounts claim that Begna himself almost died of the shock. The people of the city were roused into a frenzy of anti-Venetian sentiment, and many Venetian merchants in Zara at the time were seized and held as prisoners, if not attacked by the townspeople. The uncertainty of whether the denouncement of Pope Innocent, now public knowledge, would dissuade the Venetians remained at the fore of Zaratin concerns for a number of weeks.

The knowledge of the Seizure of Lido and the cancellation of the Crusade brought some relief to the Comes and the Councils, though not to the people. Distrust and hatred of Venice remained commonplace, and the Venetian prisoners were kept as such because of the public outcry. And it was the people that were ultimately revealed to be in the right.

The Venetian invasion of Istria sent shockwaves through the Adriatic. The first knowledge of the attack came to Zara on the 20th of October, 1202. A Polasi ship, sent ahead of the fleet of Pola after its defeat at the Battle of Brioni Grande to forewarn the Zaratins, arrived at the docks with its sail rent in tatters by the wind. Comes Antonio Begna received the Istrian delegation himself, which consisted of diplomats from Pola as well as the Triestine and Muggian ambassadors that had been lodged in the city before its capture. They pleaded for aid from Zara, promising to pledge their remaining ships to its fleet.

The Comes answered their plea. On the 22nd of October, 1202, envoys went forth from Zara to all the cities of Dalmatia, summoning them to rally to the Istrian cause. A Council in Zara itself, to decide the fate of the Adriatic and to alter the course of history.'

Extract from - A Study of the Istrian and Balcanic Wars
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[Iluvatar]

Update!
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'The League of Dalmatia formed as a direct consequence of the Council of Zara, convened on the 30th of October 1202. Comes Antonio Begna was the principle driving force behind its formation, pressing hard to solidify the loose coalition of Dalmatian city-states into a united fighting force. Zara's negotiating position was strong, possessing the most powerful military of all the attendant cities; with the Polasi fleet pledged to its cause; and the lingering prestige of the title 'Dalmacie Princeps', bestowed upon the previous Zaratin Comes Damiano Desinie after his victories over the Venetians. The northern cities, such as Reka (Fiume) and Crepsa were eager to bring the other cities to their defence and supported Zara's position. The southern cities, particularly the powerful Spalatro and Ragusa, were more reluctant. The Ragusan ambassador, a city under the influence of the Constantinopolitan Empire*, demanded that Ragusa's forces operate under its own command. Spalatro and Cattaro followed suit.

It took the intervention of a new envoy from Buda, bearing word from Emeric of Hungary, to resolve the deadlock. It granted Zara authority from the Hungarian Crown to lead the Dalmatian cities against Venice. It's timing was fortunate - on the 36th, a herald coming ahead of the Crepsan fleet brought news of the fall of Crepsa to a sudden Venetian attack. These two factors finally overcame southern resistance to a unified command.

On the 11th of November 1202, with consent from representatives from the Hungarian King and the support of the Pisan, Genoese and Constantinopolitan ambassadors, the League of Dalmatia was declared in Zara. Zaratin Comes Begna was awarded with the title 'Dalmacie Princeps', as his predecessor had been. In Zara's generals and admirals was invested the unified military command of all Dalmatia. To Zara came the fleets of all the cities of the Adriatic opposed to the Republic of Venice, prepared to resist their common enemy.'

Extract from - Adriatic Politics: From 1100 to 1900

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*The name for the Byzantine Empire ITTL.

 

[Iluvatar]

I'll take the lack of criticism thus far as a good sign!

 

[LoneWanderer23]

I'll take the lack of criticism thus far as a good sign!

So far so good. I'm looking forward to see where you are going to go with this story since I actually live in Iadera/Zara/Zadar

 

[Iluvatar]

So far so good. I'm looking forward to see where you are going to go with this story since I actually live in Iadera/Zara/Zadar

Feel free to mention anything you know about your local history then - England is rather far removed from Dalmatia, and extra information is always handy!

No update today I'm afraid, everyone, but there should be one or more tomorrow.

 

[Achaemenid Rome]

Constantinopolitan Empire

*The name for the Byzantine Empire ITTL.

A semi-popular misconception is that "Byzantine" was wholly an anachronism used by Western scholars (e.g. Edward Gibbon) to diminish the Eastern Empire and the contributions of Greeks. This is partially true. However, the Byzantines themselves did use the term Byzantine (Βύζαντιον or Βύζαντινοι) to describe themselves metonymically. Much like "Westminster" can refer to the British government, and "Sublime Porte" used to refer to the Ottoman sultanate, "Byzantine" recognized the importance of Constantinople to the Empire and could refer to both the Eastern empire and its inhabitants. This usage can be found in both Chronographia by Michael Psellos and the Alexiad by Anna Komnena.

So by the time of the POD, the Byzantine Empire was already known as the Byzantine Empire.

 

[Vasilas]

A semi-popular misconception is that "Byzantine" was wholly an anachronism used by Western scholars (e.g. Edward Gibbon) to diminish the Eastern Empire and the contributions of Greeks. This is partially true. However, the Byzantines themselves did use the term Byzantine (Βύζαντιον or Βύζαντινοι) to describe themselves metonymically. Much like "Westminster" can refer to the British government, and "Sublime Porte" used to refer to the Ottoman sultanate, "Byzantine" recognized the importance of Constantinople to the Empire and could refer to both the Eastern empire and its inhabitants. This usage can be found in both Chronographia by Michael Psellos and the Alexiad by Anna Komnena.

So by the time of the POD, the Byzantine Empire was already known as the Byzantine Empire.

Exactly! It has been in use at least since Procopius (and I suspect probably earlier too, but need to look more carefully). Niketas Choniates also used "Byzantine" pretty close to the time of this TL.

That being said, a new name could be popularized later in history by either an historian (like Hieronymous Wolf OTL) or perhaps by political developments within a surviving Byzantine state (anti-pagan Hellene attitudes so playing up the Constantine connection more?). So I would not say the choice of name is problematic, though I'd be curious to see how that happened (I realize that is nowhere close to the focus of this great TL, but my curiosity does get provoked by anything Byzantine).

 

[The Professor]

Liking the update.
With regards to language of the area it would be premature to describe the then language as Croatian specifically due to the South Slavic dialect continuum - indeed several have mentioned the various overlapping nomenclature on what people called what was spoken.
ITTL with an essentially independent Dalmatia it would likely be called Dalmatian and have an ancestry that would include local South Slavic dialects and Romance influence depending on how history proceeds and who rules in/over it.

 

[The Professor]

A semi-popular misconception is that "Byzantine" was wholly an anachronism used by Western scholars (e.g. Edward Gibbon) to diminish the Eastern Empire and the contributions of Greeks. This is partially true. However, the Byzantines themselves did use the term Byzantine (Βύζαντιον or Βύζαντινοι) to describe themselves metonymically. Much like "Westminster" can refer to the British government, and "Sublime Porte" used to refer to the Ottoman sultanate, "Byzantine" recognized the importance of Constantinople to the Empire and could refer to both the Eastern empire and its inhabitants. This usage can be found in both Chronographia by Michael Psellos and the Alexiad by Anna Komnena.

So by the time of the POD, the Byzantine Empire was already known as the Byzantine Empire.

Exactly! It has been in use at least since Procopius (and I suspect probably earlier too, but need to look more carefully). Niketas Choniates also used "Byzantine" pretty close to the time of this TL.

That being said, a new name could be popularized later in history by either an historian (like Hieronymous Wolf OTL) or perhaps by political developments within a surviving Byzantine state (anti-pagan Hellene attitudes so playing up the Constantine connection more?). So I would not say the choice of name is problematic, though I'd be curious to see how that happened (I realize that is nowhere close to the focus of this great TL, but my curiosity does get provoked by anything Byzantine).

I believe Greek or Greek Roman was also used contemporaneously by Western writers.

 

[Iluvatar]

Much like "Westminster" can refer to the British government, and "Sublime Porte" used to refer to the Ottoman sultanate, "Byzantine" recognized the importance of Constantinople to the Empire and could refer to both the Eastern empire and its inhabitants.

In the same way, 'Constantinopolitan' makes sense - perhaps more sense, come to think of it, considering the name of the city at the time. Maybe I'll use the two interchangeably, though 'Constantinopolitan' has a certain ring to it.

That being said, a new name could be popularized later in history

Indeed it could.

I'd be curious to see how that happened

Probably outside the scope of the TL, I'm afraid. I used 'Constantinopolitan' just to emphasise the changes that may come in Mediterranean politics and history ITTL.

this great TL

Why, thank you

it would be premature to describe the then language as Croatian

Quite. I'll go into the language factor if it's necessary/interesting/asked for, but it will basically be the existing Dalmatian language continuing on with a few more Croat and Italian influences as time goes on (but not the point of replacement as IOTL). Input on that point is very welcome.