That solves that then!
Edit: also a strong lesson on how easy to convince ourselves of something that is plausible yet not true!
Last edited:
Dalmatia Ascendant: Reboot
Edit: also a strong lesson on how easy to convince ourselves of something that is plausible yet not true!
I now feel kinda bad, since you guys were doing a really cool scholarly project and analyzing stuff and whatnot. And I just googled something I half-remember from God knows where.
I now feel kinda bad, since you guys were doing a really cool scholarly project and analyzing stuff and whatnot. And I just googled something I half-remember from God knows where.
Hey, don't feel bad! It's better to know the truth than to go through an interesting, albeit inaccurate, analysis based on incomplete information. Honest, I think it's more interesting that Rama turned out to be a synonym to Bosnia to the Hungarian crown than it being some corrupted spelling of Rascia. I have to wonder just how widespread this aristocratic synonym was!
Besides, as interesting as The Professor's ad hoc interpretive analysis is, they likely knew that Rascia was Rascia, since that's the Latin name, and a quick search of "Rasciaeque" demonstrates that knowledge.
Great minds think alike!
Though we found out it's probably not that, that is useful information. Thanks!
Thanks for the information! I was not aware of that terminology, so I can now make use of it in the TL. Though I'll probably use Bosnia as standard to help those unfamiliar with the archaic names for the countries (hence why I've been using 'Serbia' and not 'Rascia').
Please don't feel bad about informing us of the truth - I want to make TTL as accurate as I can! Though I agree it was pretty awesome how everyone suddenly became engaged in uncovering the secrets of Mediaeval Balkan political nomenclature
That's really encouraging, thank you. As the general consensus seems to be in favour of keeping this in the same thread, I will do that (barring any unforeseen influx of opinions to the contrary). I'm not sure how long the hiatus itself will be - depends entirely on how long it takes me to settle in at Uni.
I mean, those are the most accurate options. Rama was not the actual name of medieval Bosnia, but a piece of mangled political geography specific to the Hungarian court. Likewise, the actual name of medieval Serbia was Serbia, not "Rascia". "Rascia" was an alias which saw some usage in the West, but was almost never used internally.
From what I can see from the references on Wikipedia (there seems little conflict on this in the comments) Rascia was used in SerboCroat documents under the early kings after Emeric.
Mainly the phrase used:
King of All Rascian Lands, and Diocletia, and Dalmatia, and Travunia, and Zachumlia.
But in conjunction with
King of All Serbian and Maritime Lands
Often with "Rascian" and "Serbian" interchangeable.
It seems it was after Urosh that Rashka etc was phased out in favour of Srbska etc. Especially once the empire was declared.
My personal preference is that this thread continue, at whatever pace you can manage without getting into RL trouble and also feel like doing, as long as you like. I don't see any point in starting a new thread, this one is going great.
You know that the rules against "necromancing" a quiet thread don't apply to the OP author, right? That's my understanding!
You just got out of high school? This is some really good writing on a really esoteric subject! I never would have guessed you hadn't graduated from college, with high grades, many years before! In fact I sort of assumed you'd have to have studied up on the regional history and this period in a college, with college resources, for years and years.
I'm mainly worried now that with the big life changes that typically happen in college you would lose the motivation to continue, which would be a shame because this is top notch stuff.
I hope you meet someone really nice there who appreciates this kind of thing!
You know that the rules against "necromancing" a quiet thread don't apply to the OP author, right? That's my understanding!
You just got out of high school? This is some really good writing on a really esoteric subject! I never would have guessed you hadn't graduated from college, with high grades, many years before! In fact I sort of assumed you'd have to have studied up on the regional history and this period in a college, with college resources, for years and years.
I'm mainly worried now that with the big life changes that typically happen in college you would lose the motivation to continue, which would be a shame because this is top notch stuff.
I hope you meet someone really nice there who appreciates this kind of thing!
Yeah, basically. AFAIK the name used under all the Grand Counts before 1217, and under the first King Stephen, was always "Serbia". The next two kings - Radoslav and Vladislav - used both "Rascia" and "Serbia" interchangeably. And from King Urosh I and beyond, "Serbia" is again the only internal name. In other words, the usage of "Rascia" started relatively late, ended very early, and it was never the main term even at its height.
I have it that King Stefan also used Rascia(n) - his sons are said to have used his titles in the long title - and that the Grand Principality was usually called Rascia thanks to earlier GP Urosh. AFAIK Serb(ian) mainly referred to the people with Rascian used for the state and that the former gained prominence thanks to expansion outside Rascia proper to the Maritime lands and Syrmia.
Chapter 16 - Attack
__________________________________________________________________________________
The fortress-city of Zara
__________________________________________________________________________________
Attack
__________________________________________________________________________________
The disunity of the Dalmatians was immediately evident. At the Universitas in Zara, the delegates from the northern islands of Arba, Veglia and Crepsa supported a motion proposing the acceptance of Duke Andrew as overlord. They found support from Tragura in the south, which was ruled by a comes of the Croatian Šubić family. They, along with most of the noble families of Croatia, had joined Andrew's revolt in the hope of acquiring favour and privileges from a new King. Additionally the Šubić heartland in the župa of Breber - as well as Tragura itself - were threatened by a strong presence of rebel troops occupying the Zagora[1]region in the name of the Duke.
The fortress-city of Zara
__________________________________________________________________________________
Attack
__________________________________________________________________________________
Zara, Sebenico and Spalatro remained loyal to their King. Zara owed its position of preeminence in Dalmatia to the patronage of Emeric, and they were under no delusion that Andrew could make any better offer. Indeed, the Comes suspected that a King with a stronger base of support among the Croatian nobility would prove more able to impose unwanted control over Zara itself. Similarly Sebenico, ruled by Comes Domald of Sidraga (of the house of Kačić), saw no benefit in Andrew's stated desire to reattach the city to Croatia. The family had benefited from Sebenico's membership of the Dalmatian League, taking a share of profits from taxes on tonnage and poundage usually reserved for the higher echelons of nobility. Various other Kačić holdings, including the town of Clissa[2] (held by Domald himself) and much of the župa[3] of Sidraga also remained loyal to the rightful King.
Andrew raised his banner at the great fortress of Tinin, known also as Knin, in the Dinaric Alps. His stated reason for rebellion was to remove 'wicked counsellors' from the court of his brother in Esztergom, whom the Duke blamed for the loss of Nona and Sebenico to the League. It was clear, however, that Andrew's aim was higher; those who rallied to his cause were those most dissatisfied with Emeric's rule. His underlings began to refer to him as 'his Majesty the King', and he made no move to prevent them. Near all Croatia rose in his favour, with the exception of the aforementioned Kačić family; and he had foreign help from his father-in-law, Duke Berthold of Merania, and his ally Duke Leopold of Austria.
After a month spent consolidating his power in Croatia and Hum, Andrew chose to strike. With Emeric distracted by an Austrian incursion close to Lake Balaton in Hungary - not to mention a war with Bulgaria at the Danube - the Duke marched south across the mountains and laid siege to Zara. At first glance this move seems foolish - his brother, the target of the revolt, was in the opposite direction. But there was method to his apparent madness. Zara was the key to Dalmatia, and possession of Dalmatia would grant both enormous legitimacy to his cause and enable supplies, arms and mercenaries to flood into Croatia. It seems that Andrew's plan was to cow the Zaratins into changing allegiance.
Zara was not unprepared for the attack. Although Comes Begna had concluded that the Duke would most probably strike north first, he had still ordered the garrison strengthened and the walls reinforced. Stockpiling of food began almost as soon as the rebellion started, though Croatia's lack of significant naval power meant that imports from overseas could continue unabated. The Comes also sent soldiers to defend Nona, as well as to empower the Zaratin bailo to arrest and exile potential troublemakers in the newly-acquired and restive town.
Andrew's army reached Zara on the 9th of August 1203, and began a siege. The Duke himself took up residence in the 'royal town' of Belgradon[4], a short distance south along the coast. Unfortunately for the Duke, the town had yet to recover from the Venetian conquest in 1125[5], and still lacked a good port. Nevertheless, the symbolism of his new seat was not lost on the Croatian nobility, nor on King Emeric[6]. At the same time, Andrew strengthened his garrisons at Scardona[7] and Almissa[8], drawing support and manpower from the Zagora region.
The siege itself was one of attrition for the Ducal army, but failed to seriously threaten the security of Zara. Situated on a peninsular, the city proper was reachable only across a relatively narrow isthmus, which formed a natural harbour. The Comes ordered his ships to take up positions in this harbour and had them lashed together to form platforms, from which archers shot deep into the besieging ranks. At the same time the women and children were mostly evacuated to the island of Ugliano, where they would be safe should the city fall.
On the 17th of August, Andrew launched a direct assault on the city walls. After a week of waiting the Duke was impatient; evidently the communitas leadership had not felt threatened by the army's mere presence. He had sent for two siege towers after the Zaratins rejected his demand to capitulate, hoping that their arrival would intimidate Zara into submission, but now he acted to use them. Under the cover of darkness the two towers were manoeuvred into position at the city wall, and a rude battering ram of hewn tree-trunks was assembled and dragged into position.
Andrew, who left Belgradon to command the assault personally, assigned two separate companies to the siege towers. One was directed on a course just south of the gate-road, which lay on the port-side of the peninsular and led to the coastal gate commonly known as the 'Port Gate'[9]. Andrew wisely decided against moving the tower itself along the road due to the noise it would create - instead, the grass muffled the sound of the approach. The main gate of the city was positioned roughly halfway along the land-wall, but Andrew adamantly refused to deploy any forces to attack it. He recognised the strength of the central gate and knew that it would be a mistake to commit forces to such an impossible task. The weaker Port Gate was a much easier target.
The second siege tower was positioned opposite the wall of Zara at the small harbour of Fosa. The towers began to approach the wall at approximately two o'clock in the morning, but their weight and the need for secrecy meant it took two hours just to reach the fortifications.
The wall-guards failed to notice the enemy's activities in the gloom until they were close to the wall. Once seen, the city's bells were rung to summon the men of Zara to battle. The Comes had predicted an assault on receiving word of the siege towers' arrival, but remained confident that the attack could be beaten off. Begna remained calm and collected on being awakened, and departed quickly from his chambers to take command of the defences. His own quiet preparations for escape in the event of disaster (including a ship stocked with provisions and much of the city's treasury) may have aided his composure.
Nevertheless, the Comes had good reason to be optimistic. Zara's walls were the most formidable in all Dalmatia and few armies from the interior had ever overcome the city's defences. The city was well-provisioned and the soldiers were motivated, if somewhat wearied by the lateness of the hour. As the Ducal army was without sea power there was no risk of a landing at the seaward walls. Begna had taken advantage of this long before the battle at the beginning the siege, and had redeployed much of the port-guard and the garrison of the sea wall to the principle defences at the land approaches.
The battle can truly be said to have started at around 3 o'clock in the morning, when the Croatian battering-ram was sent forward and the siege-towers neared the walls. Andrew ordered a general advance on the city, and he himself established a headquarters on the gate-road to direct his forces. The Zaratins deployed many archers to the walls, and sent volleys of arrows into the mass of soldiers manning the battering ram at the gate. In the darkness, however, many missed their mark.
The gate was strong and did not give way to the ram, but it did distract the Zaratins long enough to enable to siege-towers to reach the walls. At approximately 4 o'clock, the Croatian assault began in earnest and men began to ascend the towers. They were well-built and reinforced with animal hides, making them difficult to burn or break. Flaming arrows and boiling oil, whilst dangerous, could only hurt a few soldiers at a time, rather than compromising the entire structure. The battle entered its most dangerous stage.
Dawn came early on the 17th. By six o'clock, the sun was just beginning to slide above the horizon, and the Croatian catapults opened fire. With two siege towers still in action and the gate becoming weaker with every stroke of the ram, the addition of artillery was a severe threat to Zara's defences. Soon thereafter, the gate itself burst asunder and the defenders were forced back to a secondary doorway; a more rudimentary affair which could not withstand the hours of abuse which the first had endured. At the same time, Croatian soldiers began to gain a proper foothold on the walls.
The situation was desperate. The Comes, once confident, was suddenly struck with the terror of defeat. He, and his people, risked losing all they had to the Duke. The accounts of what happened once this realisation struck Begna are conflicting and unclear. What is known is that the siege towers were destroyed by fire. Exactly how this was achieved is disputed - some have postulated that 'fire-bundles', a defensive weapon composed of straw and wood (sometimes with nails hammered into them to help them 'stick' to siege towers), were responsible. One rather more interesting theory is that the Zaratins used Greek Fire in the defence of their city. The legend was recorded by one Niketas Choniates, a Greek historian who took a particular interest in the Empire's lost weapon:
'Realising the threat that was closing in on Zara, Begna summoned three of his most loyal servants and departed from Well Square[10], where he had established his command pavilion. The four marched on the Comital Palace[11] and entered in swiftly, as the building was close to the city walls. Here the Comes bade the men wait in the antechamber of the palace whilst he himself passed within to certain secret chambers.
When he returned, he gave to each man a vial of a very precious substance, the making of which is now a mystery to all men, even the Romans. Each of the three vials were wrapped in cloth soaked in alcohol. The Comes gave instruction to each man, bidding them take the vials, light them, and cast them at the siege towers and the battering ram.
This the three men did, and won a great victory for their people. The vials contained a form of liquid fire, and once they burst open on the wooden siege towers, the fire entered through the animal hides and set the towers alight from within. Both were destroyed before the seventh hour of the morning - as was the ram, with many Croatian soldiers suffering terrible burns. Some cast themselves into the waters of the harbour, which was close at hand, but to no avail - the flames could not be extinguished that way. In any case, the Croats were swiftly driven from the walls with arrows, and those who had made it atop the fortifications themselves were slaughtered.'
When he returned, he gave to each man a vial of a very precious substance, the making of which is now a mystery to all men, even the Romans. Each of the three vials were wrapped in cloth soaked in alcohol. The Comes gave instruction to each man, bidding them take the vials, light them, and cast them at the siege towers and the battering ram.
This the three men did, and won a great victory for their people. The vials contained a form of liquid fire, and once they burst open on the wooden siege towers, the fire entered through the animal hides and set the towers alight from within. Both were destroyed before the seventh hour of the morning - as was the ram, with many Croatian soldiers suffering terrible burns. Some cast themselves into the waters of the harbour, which was close at hand, but to no avail - the flames could not be extinguished that way. In any case, the Croats were swiftly driven from the walls with arrows, and those who had made it atop the fortifications themselves were slaughtered.'
The reliability of this legend is rejected by many historians; though, as a former Greek possession, the presence of Greek Fire in Zara is not beyond the realm of the feasible.
Andrew was disgusted and angered by the defeat, but did not have time to make a second attempt. The day after the attack, on the 18th of August, word came from Slavonia that Emeric had defeated Leopold of Austria and forced him to return to Vienna, and that the King was now advancing on the important town of Eszék, known also as Mursa[12]. With no choice, the Duke ended the siege and withdrew north to Tinin, preparing to make a stand in the north of his duchy.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Extract from: Hungary, Croatia and Dalmatia - A Potted History
__________________________________________________________________________________
Footnotes:
[1] 'Zagora' refers to the Dalmatian hinterland. It literally means 'behind hills'. Many Croatian župa were centred in this region.
[2] 'Clissa' is the Italian/Latin name for Klis. Presumably the Dalmatian equivalent is similar or identical.
[3] The 'župa' were the Croatian counties.
[4] 'Belgradon' is an early named for modern Biograd. The city was known in Latin as Alba Maritima, but I chose 'Belgradon' as a compromise to emphasise how it was indisputably a Slavic city. Sidenote: IOTL Biograd came to be called Jadra Nova ('New Zara') and then Zaravecchia ('Old Zara') because the survivors of the 1202 Sack of Zara fled mostly to Biograd, and then returned home after the reconquest.
[5] The Venetians effectively razed Biograd in 1125. I couldn't find any specifics about the state of the city in 1203, but given that it was renamed 'Old Zara' (as explained above), I chose to interpret it as being effectively abandoned, or at least much less significant than its former status. Whatever the case, the Venetian attack had been devastating.
[6] This symbolism has to do with the fact that the first Hungarian King of Croatia was crowned in Biograd. Andrew establishing his seat there sends a clear message about his intentions, even if he has not openly stated his desire to be King himself.
[7] 'Scardona' is modern Skradin. In 1203 it was a possession of the Šubić family, a Croatian house which has joined Andrew's rebellion ITTL (not sure about OTL).
[8] 'Almissa' is modern Omiš. Most likely the name at the time would have been something like Olmissium or Almiyssium, as 'Almissa' was used after the Venetian conquest. I have used the more modern term for simplicity's sake.
[9] This is what is today known as the 'Port Gate'. Resident of Zadar please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the more dramatic Land Gate was built by the Venetians (and was thus not in existence until that point) whereas the Port Gate contains elements of an ancient Roman triumphal arch, indicating its use as a gate far earlier - i.e. during 1203. I chose to depict Zara with only one major gate, the Port Gate. Perhaps @MakiRoc can help correct any mistakes, as I understand that he is a resident of Zadar?
[10] IOTL this square is known as 'Five Wells Square', because the Venetians constructed a large water cistern with five ornamental wells to assist in withstanding Ottoman sieges. ITTL the Venetians don't rule Zara so the wells are never built. Instead, a single well exists.
[11] This is the 'Rector's Palace ' IOTL. Venetian appointed governors ('Rectors') lived here, but it is known that the palace was used earlier than this. ITTL, the building remains the property of the native Zaratin comites and becomes known as the 'Comital Palace'.
[12] This is OTL Osijek.
__________________________________________________________________________________
A bit of a long one, in contrast to previous. I always seem to stretch out battles! Anyway, I hope you enjoyed
. I might get a map out at some point to help with visualising the conflict.Comments, ideas, thoughts and constructive criticism is encouraged!
Next up: the Civil War continues.
Thanks,
- Iluvatar
Last edited:
Thank you, that's an excellent excuse for any potential anachronisms (accidental or otherwise) in the thread
Seriously though, that's helpful info. Thanks.
Thanks guys. It seems the consensus is that this thread should continue, so that's what I'll do. I'll be sure to let you know when the hiatus begins, I won't just vanish!
Well, it's called Secondary School in Britain, but yes
I extremely flattered, thank you! To be honest much of the information comes from Wikipedia (I often rely on translating the Croatian-language and Italian-language versions for extra details) and a few Google Books and pdf documents on the period. I try to ensure that I find more than one source of a piece of information before I use it, however. Unless I'm desperate for info or the 'fact' in question is particularly awesome
. What I've noticed in writing two versions of this TL is that my motivation rises and falls of its own free will, and not by my circumstances. Important example; during A Level (highest pre-University qualification in the UK) exam period, all I wanted to do was sit and write up the TL. And sometime when I have literally nothing else to do, I simply don't feel motivated. It's very weird and can be very frustrating when I hit a block. What I don't doubt, however, is that my motivation always eventually returns
Me too! Here's hoping there are some Alternative Historians in Southampton University's History Society
I believe the current Port Gate is from the 16th century. The Roman triumphal arc was taken from another place in the city and installed into the gate, modified with inscriptions celebrating the Christian victory at Lepant. The Arc was kinda like a quick solution to decorate the gate. The whole current wall surrounding Zadar is from the renaissance era. The wall in this ATL should be the surviving medieval wall (the one in your picture) that stays fully intact because the crusaders are butterflied away. My knowledge of the old wall in the 13th century is a bit weak. I believe there were a few gates towards the port, I'm just not sure that they were at the same place as the current ones (though I think it is highly probable). I would leave this in your last post as it is.
You are right about the Land gate it was not yet in existence. It was built together with the new renaissance walls. The old main gate was on the current Petar Zoranić square, north of the current Five Wells square.
I must say you have become quite an expert on this subject. You probably now know more about Zadar then 90% of the people that live here. I'm very impressed. Keep up the good work
I see, I had assumed that the arch was already in place and that it was repurposed as a gate. That's actually pretty interesting! Might tweak some of the wording but as you suggest it is probably safe to assume that the Venetians likely revamped an existing 'Port Gate' rather than knocking through a new one, as we know there was at least one in existence already.
Would that have been a previous version of this one?
If is was the main gate then it probably should have featured in the battle. I'll just explain that away by saying that the main gate was so formidable that Andrew didn't bother to waste time assaulting it. Take that as canon!
Thanks, that's very kind. I have to say though, Zaratin history is truly fascinating. Once I started looking into it it was hard to stop! So Zadar itself has to take some of the credit for being so interesting.
Would that have been a previous version of this one?
If is was the main gate then it probably should have featured in the battle. I'll just explain that away by saying that the main gate was so formidable that Andrew didn't bother to waste time assaulting it. Take that as canon!
Nope, that's the entrance to the Ponton Bastion part of the 16th century fortifications, but the old gate was not far from it. Very little of the old wall has survived.
I have a photo I took at the museum some time ago showing a model of medieval Zara where you can kinda see the main gate (and some of the Port gates that we discussed earlier). Unfortunately the model represents the period after this timeline (14th century I believe) so you have some Venetian add-ons to the old fortification (the Castello bastion that has a trench between itself and the city, and the Citadela in the right corner of the city) but from what I know most of the northern wall and the fortifications toward the mainland (including the main gate) are more or less the same.
https://ibb.co/etKfue
Wow, I did not expect this sort of development, not right at the start of the civil war...but now that you've written it it seems so inevitable in hindsight!
I guess I should have known better than to expect a medieval conflict to involve a long de facto truce and stalemate. It was a time when warfare would often be settled in one impetuous gamble! Andrew taking Zara would not exactly be a sudden death blow to Emeric's cause but it would hurt him a lot.
Another big error was my assumption that the Dalmatian cities would hang together. If it fact Dalmatia were already more or less a single united nation, taking Zara would gain Andrew a lot less and put him at more risk than in the realistic 13th century situation I should have visualized better. I was mainly worried the Venetians might pull something in this crisis when Dalmatia is somewhat cut off from the full backing Emeric could give if there weren't a civil war going on but now I suppose that actually the main thing protecting Dalmatia from Venice is Dalmatia. A strong unified Hungary at their back assures they can focus defenses in one direction and have access to food and communications and so forth while under attack by a strong sea power, but being able to survive the sea power attack is a matter of their own defenses, Hungary can't help much there. Part of that is having the unified League to resist being taken piecemeal and opportunistically.
Which is exactly where I was blindsided, that and supposing Zara was more invulnerable that I should have, bearing in mind that the only time I ever heard of Zara in history was the story of the Fourth Crusade. When I studied Geoffroi de Villehardouin's account, I had little concept of Zara's general place among Italian-language trading cities (and thought of others such as Ragusa as being geographically Italian too) and thus did not properly conceive what the Venetians had accomplished by diverting the Crusade against Christian rivals beginning with Zara itself--I frankly thought of it a petty diversion from the main story, not realizing that in taking Zara on Venice's behalf the French Crusaders had crushed a great rival already, in a sense quite as important as their later service to Venetian interests in Constantinople. Zara of course is not Constantinople, but neither was Venice...until these Crusaders tipped the scales anyway.
So, somehow I got into my head that Zara was downright impregnible, forgetting of course that it is just a handful of years down the line from its OTL breaching and sack. So I figured neither Andrew nor Emeric would dare divert too much to trying to settle its status by sheer force. Again that was in the context of assuming all the cities of the League would see their best interest served by trying to stay neutral and if not neutral, preferring the side of the king. But it was specifically Zara's own interests you were at pains to tell us Emeric favored and augmented, not those of each and every League city, and within the League that was surely a cause of jealousy, not just of the petty sort but concern Zara's status as queen city of Dalmatia and dominating each of the others was being cemented by Emeric's favor.
As I said I was mainly worried what the Venetians might do, and perhaps some shred of my calculations survives in the fact Andrew did not seek to make common cause with Venice, calling on Venetian help to attack by sea in coordination with his attack by land. Had he managed such a league I suppose Zara would have been doomed, though of course the Venetians would have to fight their way on the water to Zara's shores first which is hardly a slam dunk even for Venice, particularly the cut down ATL Venice--still Venice remains a great sea power, does it not? But as I said, Emeric hopes to retain and Andrew to gain the crown of all Hungary, and the Dalmatian cities, even a less friendly one, are more valuable to the kingdom as Hungarian vassals then as the colonized playthings of an overseas power. I wonder if Andrew is now wishing he'd pawned off Zara to the Venetians, ruining it being preferable to it surviving as a wounded but aroused power with reinforced ties to Emeric at his back. But too late, unless his fortunes turn to greatly strengthen him and weaken Emeric, he cannot expect another opportunity to concentrate such force on any Dalmatian city again, and being able to do that, as he was this once, would be what would sweeten the deal for the Venetians to draw them in. He came this close to winning at Zara as it was, and surely figured before the fact that bringing Venice in was the last thing he wanted to do. With the cities that more naturally aligned with him and Zara in his power, he surely could dominate the rest of the League or most of it anyway, enough to seriously impair the benefit their being left in peace might bring Emeric.
Though, returning to the opening passage, apparently Emeric had more cities in the League against him than for him? With Zara I suspect the handful of loyalist cities were both the bigger cities (so they count for more than the much larger count of pro-Andrew cities would suggest--but are still badly outnumbered!) Again my calculation was that pretty much all the cities shared a common interest in a single strong monarch for all Hungary including its Croatian and Serbian fiefs and would given a free choice have favored the established king, though obviously if Andrew's victory over Emeric were a quick slam dunk they might be indifferent who the strong monarch of Hungary was. I seem then to have badly misjudged their position, and this makes the prior gifts and favors of Emeric to Zara all the more significant.
Zara having survived Andrew's best shot, albeit by a rather melodramatic quasi-miracle rather than a boring old "you fool, Zara is impregnible!" manner I thought it would, will not be the fence-sitter I thought it would. Whatever Emeric needs from Zara is surely now his for the asking, at least if Zara can afford it...it is not like they were saved by the King after all! But unless everyone gets really coldhearted and Machivellian all of a sudden, surely Zara wants to see Andrew go down in flames now, as soon as possible, and Emeric to win with a minimum of royal power being bled away. Aside from having scores to settle, the handful of Emeric-faction League cities are outnumbered, and the League is thus badly split for the moment, so I am hardly writing the Venetians out of the picture yet!
It did occur to me maybe Andrew would have coordinated with Venice and thus won, but it was a matter of timing and opportunity--it would appear the time scale of Emeric being tied down and distracted on the external borders was quite short, a matter of weeks or even days, and Andrew's opportunity was limited. So there just wasn't time to coordinate some grand strategic alliance back and forth across the Adriatic? Surely the strategic, long game interest Andrew shares with Emeric in avoiding losing control of any of the shore to some overseas power has some weight still (not necessarily if Andrew is on his way down and knows it, he might do anything then just to spite his brother, but by then, what has he got to offer the Venetians to attract them in?)
The very premise of your TL costs you some dramatic suspense opportunities, since we know the TL is about an ATL unified (at least in the federal sense) Dalmatia, we know that whatever side in a conflict that is sure to put an end to that is probably not going to do so well, paper balance of power to the contrary. But in the case of the Hungarian civil war I had no preferences or reason to think one or the other is better for Dalmatia or predestined to win, having never heard of either claimant--for all I knew or know even now, OTL Andrew put down Emeric handily and proceeded to become either one of the great historic kings of Hungary or founded the dynasty that provided some later. I veered toward Emeric just because he was the established king, no other reason. So I projected my own ignorance onto the League members and figured they would all try to temporize and flock to favor whoever came out on top after that was decided inland. I was entirely mistaken about that; clearly each claimant has cities who were natural allies and the League is split along with the rest of the country into factions. One very big surprise to me is that it is not a simple north-south split either; you opened with a large group of northern cities in Andrew's camp, and now looking at this map proxy.php I see that Emeric's partisan cities are interwoven with Andrew's in the south.
Everything is very different from what I imagined then, with the war coming to the very heart of Dalmatia almost immediately, and ongoing drama foretold by the geographic mess of factional cities, and Venice lurking around and liable to come swooping in as opportunity if not coordinated strategy offers--might the northern cities for instance prefer to come into the Venetian system to facing the vengeful wrath of an eventually vindicated King Emeric?
Finally...I enjoyed the drama of the description of the near-fall of Zara, it reminded me strongly of Tolkien's descriptions of the defences of both Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith in The Two Towers and Return of the King respectively.
The Hail Mary Pass of having on hand some small samples of Greek Fire makes a little sense in Zara being a former Byzantine outpost with some formal special relationship still on the books IIRC (another factor perhaps in Venice aiming Villardouin et al at the city?) I do have to wonder, if the city had these assets in hand, why they were not employed earlier when the defenses had been less breached, to repel the invaders before they had gotten so far? Who was it who knew of these vials and did not think to offer them up earlier? Was there some sealed box with a sworn-to admonition written on it saying to break the seals only after all else had failed or what? but it surely does make a fun story.
If you dared, I think an even cooler, but sadly wankish, version would be if there were persons, Byzantine envoys or part of their embassy, on hand who did know the full secret of the recipe for the stuff, who waited until they could see the city was in dire straits, and then came forward offering to manufacture some for the good of their patron state's interest--the difference being that this person somehow transmits the secret to Zaratines who conserve it, so that Zara and by extension as the League consolidates Dalmatia retains it and the OTL lost formula is known to modern science in the ATL.
But the TL is not called "Glorious Zara, Queen of the World!" nor obviously does mere possession of Greek Fire guarantee invincibility. Surely if Zara could independently create the stuff it would domineer the League and essentially annex it, dominate Hungary too and before you know it the TL is way off track. And of course the reason the secret is lost today is that the East Roman rulers made very very sure that the secret would not be disclosed to their many foes, so effectively that the chain of continuity of knowledge was broken and the secret lost; it would hardly be reasonable for Zara alone to benefit from a unique breach of faith!
I guess I should have known better than to expect a medieval conflict to involve a long de facto truce and stalemate. It was a time when warfare would often be settled in one impetuous gamble! Andrew taking Zara would not exactly be a sudden death blow to Emeric's cause but it would hurt him a lot.
Another big error was my assumption that the Dalmatian cities would hang together. If it fact Dalmatia were already more or less a single united nation, taking Zara would gain Andrew a lot less and put him at more risk than in the realistic 13th century situation I should have visualized better. I was mainly worried the Venetians might pull something in this crisis when Dalmatia is somewhat cut off from the full backing Emeric could give if there weren't a civil war going on but now I suppose that actually the main thing protecting Dalmatia from Venice is Dalmatia. A strong unified Hungary at their back assures they can focus defenses in one direction and have access to food and communications and so forth while under attack by a strong sea power, but being able to survive the sea power attack is a matter of their own defenses, Hungary can't help much there. Part of that is having the unified League to resist being taken piecemeal and opportunistically.
Which is exactly where I was blindsided, that and supposing Zara was more invulnerable that I should have, bearing in mind that the only time I ever heard of Zara in history was the story of the Fourth Crusade. When I studied Geoffroi de Villehardouin's account, I had little concept of Zara's general place among Italian-language trading cities (and thought of others such as Ragusa as being geographically Italian too) and thus did not properly conceive what the Venetians had accomplished by diverting the Crusade against Christian rivals beginning with Zara itself--I frankly thought of it a petty diversion from the main story, not realizing that in taking Zara on Venice's behalf the French Crusaders had crushed a great rival already, in a sense quite as important as their later service to Venetian interests in Constantinople. Zara of course is not Constantinople, but neither was Venice...until these Crusaders tipped the scales anyway.
So, somehow I got into my head that Zara was downright impregnible, forgetting of course that it is just a handful of years down the line from its OTL breaching and sack. So I figured neither Andrew nor Emeric would dare divert too much to trying to settle its status by sheer force. Again that was in the context of assuming all the cities of the League would see their best interest served by trying to stay neutral and if not neutral, preferring the side of the king. But it was specifically Zara's own interests you were at pains to tell us Emeric favored and augmented, not those of each and every League city, and within the League that was surely a cause of jealousy, not just of the petty sort but concern Zara's status as queen city of Dalmatia and dominating each of the others was being cemented by Emeric's favor.
As I said I was mainly worried what the Venetians might do, and perhaps some shred of my calculations survives in the fact Andrew did not seek to make common cause with Venice, calling on Venetian help to attack by sea in coordination with his attack by land. Had he managed such a league I suppose Zara would have been doomed, though of course the Venetians would have to fight their way on the water to Zara's shores first which is hardly a slam dunk even for Venice, particularly the cut down ATL Venice--still Venice remains a great sea power, does it not? But as I said, Emeric hopes to retain and Andrew to gain the crown of all Hungary, and the Dalmatian cities, even a less friendly one, are more valuable to the kingdom as Hungarian vassals then as the colonized playthings of an overseas power. I wonder if Andrew is now wishing he'd pawned off Zara to the Venetians, ruining it being preferable to it surviving as a wounded but aroused power with reinforced ties to Emeric at his back. But too late, unless his fortunes turn to greatly strengthen him and weaken Emeric, he cannot expect another opportunity to concentrate such force on any Dalmatian city again, and being able to do that, as he was this once, would be what would sweeten the deal for the Venetians to draw them in. He came this close to winning at Zara as it was, and surely figured before the fact that bringing Venice in was the last thing he wanted to do. With the cities that more naturally aligned with him and Zara in his power, he surely could dominate the rest of the League or most of it anyway, enough to seriously impair the benefit their being left in peace might bring Emeric.
Though, returning to the opening passage, apparently Emeric had more cities in the League against him than for him? With Zara I suspect the handful of loyalist cities were both the bigger cities (so they count for more than the much larger count of pro-Andrew cities would suggest--but are still badly outnumbered!) Again my calculation was that pretty much all the cities shared a common interest in a single strong monarch for all Hungary including its Croatian and Serbian fiefs and would given a free choice have favored the established king, though obviously if Andrew's victory over Emeric were a quick slam dunk they might be indifferent who the strong monarch of Hungary was. I seem then to have badly misjudged their position, and this makes the prior gifts and favors of Emeric to Zara all the more significant.
Zara having survived Andrew's best shot, albeit by a rather melodramatic quasi-miracle rather than a boring old "you fool, Zara is impregnible!" manner I thought it would, will not be the fence-sitter I thought it would. Whatever Emeric needs from Zara is surely now his for the asking, at least if Zara can afford it...it is not like they were saved by the King after all! But unless everyone gets really coldhearted and Machivellian all of a sudden, surely Zara wants to see Andrew go down in flames now, as soon as possible, and Emeric to win with a minimum of royal power being bled away. Aside from having scores to settle, the handful of Emeric-faction League cities are outnumbered, and the League is thus badly split for the moment, so I am hardly writing the Venetians out of the picture yet!
It did occur to me maybe Andrew would have coordinated with Venice and thus won, but it was a matter of timing and opportunity--it would appear the time scale of Emeric being tied down and distracted on the external borders was quite short, a matter of weeks or even days, and Andrew's opportunity was limited. So there just wasn't time to coordinate some grand strategic alliance back and forth across the Adriatic? Surely the strategic, long game interest Andrew shares with Emeric in avoiding losing control of any of the shore to some overseas power has some weight still (not necessarily if Andrew is on his way down and knows it, he might do anything then just to spite his brother, but by then, what has he got to offer the Venetians to attract them in?)
The very premise of your TL costs you some dramatic suspense opportunities, since we know the TL is about an ATL unified (at least in the federal sense) Dalmatia, we know that whatever side in a conflict that is sure to put an end to that is probably not going to do so well, paper balance of power to the contrary. But in the case of the Hungarian civil war I had no preferences or reason to think one or the other is better for Dalmatia or predestined to win, having never heard of either claimant--for all I knew or know even now, OTL Andrew put down Emeric handily and proceeded to become either one of the great historic kings of Hungary or founded the dynasty that provided some later. I veered toward Emeric just because he was the established king, no other reason. So I projected my own ignorance onto the League members and figured they would all try to temporize and flock to favor whoever came out on top after that was decided inland. I was entirely mistaken about that; clearly each claimant has cities who were natural allies and the League is split along with the rest of the country into factions. One very big surprise to me is that it is not a simple north-south split either; you opened with a large group of northern cities in Andrew's camp, and now looking at this map proxy.php I see that Emeric's partisan cities are interwoven with Andrew's in the south.
Everything is very different from what I imagined then, with the war coming to the very heart of Dalmatia almost immediately, and ongoing drama foretold by the geographic mess of factional cities, and Venice lurking around and liable to come swooping in as opportunity if not coordinated strategy offers--might the northern cities for instance prefer to come into the Venetian system to facing the vengeful wrath of an eventually vindicated King Emeric?
Finally...I enjoyed the drama of the description of the near-fall of Zara, it reminded me strongly of Tolkien's descriptions of the defences of both Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith in The Two Towers and Return of the King respectively.
The Hail Mary Pass of having on hand some small samples of Greek Fire makes a little sense in Zara being a former Byzantine outpost with some formal special relationship still on the books IIRC (another factor perhaps in Venice aiming Villardouin et al at the city?) I do have to wonder, if the city had these assets in hand, why they were not employed earlier when the defenses had been less breached, to repel the invaders before they had gotten so far? Who was it who knew of these vials and did not think to offer them up earlier? Was there some sealed box with a sworn-to admonition written on it saying to break the seals only after all else had failed or what? but it surely does make a fun story.
If you dared, I think an even cooler, but sadly wankish, version would be if there were persons, Byzantine envoys or part of their embassy, on hand who did know the full secret of the recipe for the stuff, who waited until they could see the city was in dire straits, and then came forward offering to manufacture some for the good of their patron state's interest--the difference being that this person somehow transmits the secret to Zaratines who conserve it, so that Zara and by extension as the League consolidates Dalmatia retains it and the OTL lost formula is known to modern science in the ATL.
But the TL is not called "Glorious Zara, Queen of the World!" nor obviously does mere possession of Greek Fire guarantee invincibility. Surely if Zara could independently create the stuff it would domineer the League and essentially annex it, dominate Hungary too and before you know it the TL is way off track. And of course the reason the secret is lost today is that the East Roman rulers made very very sure that the secret would not be disclosed to their many foes, so effectively that the chain of continuity of knowledge was broken and the secret lost; it would hardly be reasonable for Zara alone to benefit from a unique breach of faith!
That seems rather...well to be blunt, barbarically stated!
And really there is no deep conflict of interest between the Latin coasters and the various peoples inland. It seems to me the Magyar hegemony is functioning pretty well in the region at the moment, tying together 4 or 5 different peoples in one reasonably efficient regime...well, providing the sort of civil war Andrew is inflicting at the moment is not endemic to Magyar style of rule generally. In this same time frame as ruthlessly centralized a setup as that William the Bastard set up in England was subject to several interregnums of civil war level breakdown, so we should not judge the Hungarian setup too harshly.
I see no reason to regard "the magyar" as particularly odious; they seem at least as worthy of being an imperial people as say the Germans, nor is it obvious that "freeing" everyone is a formula for a better situation overall! Even Zaratine empire with Greek Fire and other imperial powers hardly seems either reasonable--I mean hey, they barely survived a siege one attempt as it is!
Aside from the abstract question of whether Hungarian overlordship in this era is oppressive or basically useful, the question does not apply in that form between the Dalmatians and the Magyar kings. Clearly these have a useful symbiosis that neither would want to be without. Emeric at least has been hands off and deferent to the Dalmatians being masters in their own houses...how the majority of treacherous cities will be deferred to is another question now of course! Meanwhile the Dalmatians clearly are better off with a strong, unified monarch at their backs and backing them.