Christianity in a surviving Aztec Empire and Inca Empire
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Not off the top of my head I'm afraid, a lot of this is info collected through years of on and off study, lectures and such over a robust personal library ><
I love how you ignored literally everything else I said.
If you uncover something you think would be worth reading I'd grateful to hear more, but no worries.
It does make me wonder as far as Christianity spreading if surviving Inca and Aztecs mean an underestimating the danger from other Europeans may appear - "The Spanish are assholes, but these guys claim to be their mortal enemies." - or if they're going to be hostile to Europeans in general.
That feels like it would get messy for them. Not OTL, but messy.
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Sure thing, shall do!
Other Europeans might have better luck, though the process of getting there, clarifying they aren't the Spanish, contextualizing things, managing to be the one's who get accepted enough for peaceful interactions to become the norm and them behaving themselves enough not to just end up in the same position as the Spanish would likely be quite a journey in of itself. I imagine it would also involve a great deal of piracy and raiding on the part of various Europeans fleets against one another as the competition for this area is more 'even' now.
Mhm, agreed.
Sorry for the double post but a more detailed breakdown of the challenges faced by missionaries incoming.
The lack of money, markets and merchants would likely make the process of trying to convert people even harder than in Japan, which is likely the best OTL example of how things would be nominally progressing here though be it still imperfect.
Now, why does this matter?
Well, its a confluence but suffice to say if there's no merchant class to engage with then there's no way to offer benefits to those who convert while cutting out those who don't. If there's no money, then you can't buy land and build a church, allowing you to become a part of the community. If there's no market place there's no real room for combining the two above strategies or to otherwise corner any markets and use that socio economic influence to your advantage.
This means the missionary process would have two avenues:
The first being appealing to the ruling elite, which is likely to go down like a sack of bricks given the OTL and the general fact it'd be detrimental to their own position to do so.
The second would be travelling the land, trying to invoke guest rights and staying with locals, likely needing to help out with workloads and trying to spread it this way.
Now. there'd definitely be missionaries willing to do this, and some may well be quite charming and convincing, but its still gonna be obscenely difficult. People generally only welcome guests for so long even if they are helpful, and the whole "This one is tied tot he foreigners who brought disease and bandits" won't vanish over night, and telling people how they live and that their beliefs are wrong, even when you are charming and careful, is always gonna be an uphill battle.
I still imagine the religion, both a syncretized and 'true' Christianity would make some inroads, but I doubt it'd ever grow beyond a minority religion. Especially as one has to recall the empire is going to have agency as well, and so as they recover, gain access to new tools, beast and skills, they will also likely grow in influence. A surviving Aztec or 'Inca' could certainly try and present themselves as protectors or allies to smaller groups and polities who would be impacted by European expansion on the continent for example. Circumstances are somewhat against them due to the recovery time and play catch up in certain areas, but they also are local and not tied up in Europe or reliant on long ass sea voyages to manage their progress.
The lack of money, markets and merchants would likely make the process of trying to convert people even harder than in Japan, which is likely the best OTL example of how things would be nominally progressing here though be it still imperfect.
Now, why does this matter?
Well, its a confluence but suffice to say if there's no merchant class to engage with then there's no way to offer benefits to those who convert while cutting out those who don't. If there's no money, then you can't buy land and build a church, allowing you to become a part of the community. If there's no market place there's no real room for combining the two above strategies or to otherwise corner any markets and use that socio economic influence to your advantage.
This means the missionary process would have two avenues:
The first being appealing to the ruling elite, which is likely to go down like a sack of bricks given the OTL and the general fact it'd be detrimental to their own position to do so.
The second would be travelling the land, trying to invoke guest rights and staying with locals, likely needing to help out with workloads and trying to spread it this way.
Now. there'd definitely be missionaries willing to do this, and some may well be quite charming and convincing, but its still gonna be obscenely difficult. People generally only welcome guests for so long even if they are helpful, and the whole "This one is tied tot he foreigners who brought disease and bandits" won't vanish over night, and telling people how they live and that their beliefs are wrong, even when you are charming and careful, is always gonna be an uphill battle.
I still imagine the religion, both a syncretized and 'true' Christianity would make some inroads, but I doubt it'd ever grow beyond a minority religion. Especially as one has to recall the empire is going to have agency as well, and so as they recover, gain access to new tools, beast and skills, they will also likely grow in influence. A surviving Aztec or 'Inca' could certainly try and present themselves as protectors or allies to smaller groups and polities who would be impacted by European expansion on the continent for example. Circumstances are somewhat against them due to the recovery time and play catch up in certain areas, but they also are local and not tied up in Europe or reliant on long ass sea voyages to manage their progress.
I'd argue for the Mexica peoples, that there would be heavy emphasis on the eucharist becoming a strong replacement for human sacrifice, considering that the Mexica elite ate the remains of the sacrificed possibly due to a protein scarcity in Mesoamerica due to a lack of pack animals.
"Sacrificial victims were believed to have become sacred. Eating their flesh was the act of eating the god it self. This communion with superior beings was an important aspect of Aztec religion." - Aztec Cannibalism: An Ecological Necessity?
"Sacrificial victims were believed to have become sacred. Eating their flesh was the act of eating the god it self. This communion with superior beings was an important aspect of Aztec religion." - Aztec Cannibalism: An Ecological Necessity?
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I don't think that's a fair comparison when California under American rule (if I'm reading your post right) was at times straight up genocidal violence (one of the most unambiguous cases of it in the depopulation of the Americas) because the Indians were perceived to be a dangerous threat that needed to be pre-emptively destroyed because they had no place in the system. The Spanish explicitly provided a place for the Indian in society, using them to rule their own communities so they might provide labour and tribute to enrich the Spanish crown, and this took the form of cranking existing social systems up to 11 and inevitably causing starvation and mass death, but that wasn't the intention of the policy. To compare it to the US, it would be more similar to late 19th century reservations where as long as government agents were making an attempt at feeding the people there and educating them in civilisation, the government didn't really care if people occasionally starved to death/died of easily treatable (even for the time) diseases.
Basically, the mass death came from disruptions in social structure on top of already very lethal virgin field epidemics arrived within a span of a few years. That same disruption in social structure is what would let Christianity gain a foothold. If the world is collapsing all around you, why not listen to what these newcomers with their superior technology have to say?
That's not true, there was no protein scarcity for the elite in Mesoamerica given even in the Valley of Mexico they could easily obtain shellfish from the coast. Cannibalism did occur but was ritualistic in nature. For commoners, they generally obtained protein (although famines were as common as anywhere else) and meat from wild game, turkeys, and fish, although they were (and are to this day) very short-statured people compared to even other agricultural populations--we can tell Mesoamericans in the era before agriculture became the mainstay were several inches taller on average than those in the Classic/Postclassic.
While I get what you are saying, the history professor Al Carroll does still note the use of starvation tactics which did serve to exacerbate the spread of disease and the harm it causes, along with colonial violence in general and vectors for disease in the form of the Spanish being everywhere. All factors that would be reduced or absent in an independent Tawantinsuyu. I also feel its worth noting reservations became collecting points for colonial violence, there's a reason we keep finding mass graves of children and such in these places, they weren't a charitable act after all, they were a forced perpetuation of colonial violence and abuse.
Regardless, said disruptions aren't liable to be happening here, so as noted I think a foreign religion brought by the people who cause most of the problems won't have much sticking power. (Also I would note again that people didn't convert easily cos of 'superior tech' or even just the social collapse aspects, there was tons of violence, and criminalization's and abuse involved in order to force the religion on people.)
Wrt to the Inca it's difficult to see a conversion from Cusco, minus a deeply personal revelation from the Sapa Inca which is basically impossible to predict. The Priesthood was almost always headed by a brother of the incumbent, so it seems unlikely that would provide a rationale for conversion. Especially since its not like the Catholic Church wouldn't be wanting land either.
The Mummies are an issue, yes, but its worth noting that they were not a homogeneous group either. A successful Sapa Inca likely has good relations which at least a few. And, going by Huascar and Atahualpa's actions both factions during the Civil War were willing to confront them without upending the religious order.
Any top down conversion is also gonna run into resistance on the ground. Both the Aztecs and the Inca were generally willing to let subjects keep their gods, which is not something any European sect is really open to act this point in history. Add to that the unpopularity of the Imperial regimes and you have issues.
On the flip side, assuming no conversion from above, yeah Christianity will spread. It's an evengelical religion and those tend to do that. The trade ties it could bring are substantial, and without direct Spanish oversight there is likely even more room for synchronization than IOTL, and there was a lot IOTL. If the Spanish are still threatening that may provoke hostile pushback, although OTOH it might force toleration.
However I'd lean towards the former tbh. For the Inca at least, toleration towards local customs was accepted with the understanding that the Inca pantheon was superior, and with acceptance of Inca rule. Christianity does not really fit that mold, especially if it's a tool of the Spanish.
In that vein, subject group leaders may also convert in hopes of securing Spanish support for independence. Of course if they figure the Spanish are still gonna repress them either way maybe not. And if the Spanish aren't going to militarily support them then its moot. Honestly it seems more likely border leaders flip to get materials and alliances than a full on rebellion.
There will be individual conversions here and there, especially once the religious orders move in. Certain regions may even see upswells of popular support. Times of war, plague, and uncertainty often accompany religious fervor. In the case of the Inca if the state is unable to fill its traditional obligations Christianity may seem a more fitting choice.
Regardless some spread is inevitable, and a lot depends on the positions on the Spanish, subjects, and Empires in question at any given moment.
The Mummies are an issue, yes, but its worth noting that they were not a homogeneous group either. A successful Sapa Inca likely has good relations which at least a few. And, going by Huascar and Atahualpa's actions both factions during the Civil War were willing to confront them without upending the religious order.
Any top down conversion is also gonna run into resistance on the ground. Both the Aztecs and the Inca were generally willing to let subjects keep their gods, which is not something any European sect is really open to act this point in history. Add to that the unpopularity of the Imperial regimes and you have issues.
On the flip side, assuming no conversion from above, yeah Christianity will spread. It's an evengelical religion and those tend to do that. The trade ties it could bring are substantial, and without direct Spanish oversight there is likely even more room for synchronization than IOTL, and there was a lot IOTL. If the Spanish are still threatening that may provoke hostile pushback, although OTOH it might force toleration.
However I'd lean towards the former tbh. For the Inca at least, toleration towards local customs was accepted with the understanding that the Inca pantheon was superior, and with acceptance of Inca rule. Christianity does not really fit that mold, especially if it's a tool of the Spanish.
In that vein, subject group leaders may also convert in hopes of securing Spanish support for independence. Of course if they figure the Spanish are still gonna repress them either way maybe not. And if the Spanish aren't going to militarily support them then its moot. Honestly it seems more likely border leaders flip to get materials and alliances than a full on rebellion.
There will be individual conversions here and there, especially once the religious orders move in. Certain regions may even see upswells of popular support. Times of war, plague, and uncertainty often accompany religious fervor. In the case of the Inca if the state is unable to fill its traditional obligations Christianity may seem a more fitting choice.
Regardless some spread is inevitable, and a lot depends on the positions on the Spanish, subjects, and Empires in question at any given moment.
something like the Japanese "inquisition" can occur with Christians being persecuted
even though spain is not a threat, there are several countries that would like to have that land.
no Abrahamic religion likes to share
basically what the ottomans did
this can isolate both the Aztecs and Incas from the rest of the world which never solves the problem.
yes without the conquest of these two empires the spanish to colonize in other places, as well as possibly portugal and the other europeans.
The Aztecs were a fairly decentralized state, so I think some level of colonialism is inevitable given their wealth and resources. Europe would likely be more appreciative of Mesoamerican spices TTL I suspect. But it wouldn't be like OTL, it would probably be more like Indonesia where different European powers would be competing for influence, proxy wars, etc.
I think in that environment Christianity would easily spread since Europeans loathe human sacrifice and Christianity gives better relations with the Europeans who have all the good weapons, armor, and trade goods. This wouldn't just be Catholicism. Much as there are Calvinists in parts of Indonesia, I'd expect there to be at least one or two Calvinist ethnic groups if we assume the Dutch Revolt still happens given the Dutch did many colonial campaigns against Spain/Portugal. England I could see taking an interest too given OTL Francis Drake and others were active in privateering in that area. Strong native states would be perfect allies for the English and they may want to spread their religion, get human sacrifice abolished, etc. Many Mesoamerican states would likely permit missionaries in exchange for guns and other weapons given they were all wary of the Aztecs.
Why does everyone think the Mexica Empire was on the brink of collapse before Cortez came? Really, they were just getting started. The previous generation they had turned the Tripple Alliance into an extension of their own government, they were slowly grinding down the Tlaxcala through the Flower Wars, they were founding new colonies all over the place and new cities were being conquered rapidly. Sure, they were absolutely despised by their vassals, but so were the Romans, and without the Conquistadors it's doubtful if a rebellion could defeat the Empire.
With no invasion, or an invasion driven back into the sea, the Mexica are in a pretty good place to steam-roll what's left of independent polities in central Mexico. They can trade gold, cacao and jade for steel weapons and fire-arms, and use those to build a pesudo-modern army. The only place they realistically can't conquer is arid northern Mexico, because grain-states can't control unarrable land. Also the Yukatan, the rainforest would be a huge problem (just ask the Spanish about fighting Mayans in the jungle).
So yeah. No invasion and the Mexica are well set up to become the big hegemon of Mesoamerica for the next centuries.
As for religion, Christianity will likely spread in parts of the country exposed to traders and missionaries, so the Gulf coast region. The Mexica would probably tolerate it - no need to upset lucrative partners, plus Christianity works with a lot of religious themes already wide-spread in Mesoamerica. I don't see the elite converting at all, to be honest. The Hindu rulers of India didn't, why should the Mexica? Human sacrifice has also no real reason to leave. The Christians will complain about it, but they won't end trade over that. It might be reduced in scale quite a bit, due to a lack of foreign captives once the Empire reaches greatest possible extent, but I can't see it leaving completely. It's to integral to the Nahua faith.
With no invasion, or an invasion driven back into the sea, the Mexica are in a pretty good place to steam-roll what's left of independent polities in central Mexico. They can trade gold, cacao and jade for steel weapons and fire-arms, and use those to build a pesudo-modern army. The only place they realistically can't conquer is arid northern Mexico, because grain-states can't control unarrable land. Also the Yukatan, the rainforest would be a huge problem (just ask the Spanish about fighting Mayans in the jungle).
So yeah. No invasion and the Mexica are well set up to become the big hegemon of Mesoamerica for the next centuries.
As for religion, Christianity will likely spread in parts of the country exposed to traders and missionaries, so the Gulf coast region. The Mexica would probably tolerate it - no need to upset lucrative partners, plus Christianity works with a lot of religious themes already wide-spread in Mesoamerica. I don't see the elite converting at all, to be honest. The Hindu rulers of India didn't, why should the Mexica? Human sacrifice has also no real reason to leave. The Christians will complain about it, but they won't end trade over that. It might be reduced in scale quite a bit, due to a lack of foreign captives once the Empire reaches greatest possible extent, but I can't see it leaving completely. It's to integral to the Nahua faith.
rome was a less exaggerated version of the divine claim to worship most ancient societies had that but as we saw with rome the attitude can change from the inca to being the sun of the son to being the representative of god on earth or some things like make the inca the brother of jesus or something like that, in the end i can see something like that as mentioned the inca could claim his ancestors land and limit the power of the native priest if he is sucessfull
since you used rome as an example on the Aztec front i can use it as the Inca one in ancient Rome christianity contradicted many philosophical views the Romans had if your god was strong is was to be proved and he should intervene this is why concepts like martyrdom baffled the Romans, much less if god died such a shameful death and the adherets preached a physical resurrection that many pagans detested the idea of yet as we know the religion became popular and then the center of roman identity.
Iam not saying the inca would covert or its inevitable but i think you give too little credit
an argument as to why Christianity began to grow was the decline of roman religion which was very public ceremonies do the economic collapse, the empire even with out a conquest would still have to deal with a series of plagues and most likely civil war
no invasion and driven back create very diferent i think people assume the aztec are easier since there closer and less centralized so if a massive disturbance occurs in this case most likely plague it would collapse like a house of cards
depends a lot if its the catholic church after all eastern rome didn't have this problem or not as pronounced since the patriarch was subservient to the emperor and i think the a sapa inca could set up a similar system.
The Mummies are an issue, yes, but its worth noting that they were not a homogeneous group either. A successful Sapa Inca likely has good relations which at least a few. And, going by Huascar and Atahualpa's actions both factions during the Civil War were willing to confront them without upending the religious order.
yes but lets do remember that they were fighting a civil war for the empire and land IMO would become an issue which brings to
There will be individual conversions here and there, especially once the religious orders move in. Certain regions may even see upswells of popular support. Times of war, plague, and uncertainty often accompany religious fervor. In the case of the Inca if the state is unable to fill its traditional obligations Christianity may seem a more fitting choice.
the plagues that the Spanish bring do not vanish with them and most likely both for Mexico and peru would create a time of crisis for both governments and rebellions maybe the Spanish attempt to attack again i don't think the inca convertion is likely but not impossible, and it depends in the inca adapt to eurpopean technology or i can see something like queen Nzinga Mbande happening
Sure, but it took literal centuries to get to that point sand still required an emperor converting and then state mandated conversions; people didn't just embrace it. Plus this was aided by Rome's ruling class being a bunch of hedonistic bastards, as it bread resentment against the ruling class during the centuries long growth stage. Additionally changing one's views on martyrdom and resurrections is rather different to "If I embrace this faith I will have to stop being who I am or be tortured"; like I feel we gloss over how much violence and torture was used to spread Christianity, especially by the Spanish.
Plus, many of the weaknesses Christianity exploited in Rome don't apply as easily to the Tawantinsuyu because of how the society was structured, IE massive food banks, land being worked for those who couldn't ETC ; so there's less weaknesses in the structure to exploit and given the Christians are the one's who brought the diseases that is more likely to just breed resentment.
As to civil war, I mean, maybe, but that same logic applies to Christians too, what if in failing to conquer the Americas, the Spanish Crown faces a crisis of faith or confidence and the nation starts tearing itself apart as nobles try to claim the crown claiming they could do it better, thus eroding faith in the monarch and or the church or both? That is to say, we should not assume Christianity will be a perpetual march with none of the issues faced by its would be targets, things can always go wrong for everyone after all.
Plus the Tawantinsuyu government have agency in all this and would be active in fighting against it, and as noted, Christianity has little to realistically offer I feel; especially when the people already resent having their gods subordinated to Inti, so being told their gods are fake would be even worse I feel.
Idle aside, not based on your words, but I do feel arguments about crisis's of faith feel a touch odd, cos like, logically this would happen to Christians at times too as noted above, but more pointedly cos the Tawantinsuyu have evil entities who cause problems in their faith. So I feel, rather than thinking "My gods, my gods are fake, these guys who just showed up with all the diseases and murder may be onto something" they'd be more likely to think the Spaniard and their god is one of these evil entities cos they bring so much woe. Not saying that 'would' happen, but just that there's more than one way to interpret disease and disasters and generally people of faith are more likely to blame someone or something else, rather than loose faith or blame their gods.
some misconceptions here yes it requiered an emperor to give to make it larger said emperor did so because he believed along with other new religons that it was a way to unify the empire like aurelian tried to with sol or how sects like cult of isis became popular any of these could have taken its place true but that was a symptom of the decline of traditional roman religion, the religion at first was for the less fortunate, poor , women and slaves. changing ones views over these things to the roman world was massive in rome power dynamics meant everything this is why absurd things to us like its ok to be gay so long as you are the one on top is fine since as mentioned power dynamics meant everything for the roman world to see a jewish carpenter ( a non roman having a job ancient romans said was vulgar) that they crucified was not only equal to the gods but the one true god was asinine and it really and was a big change on the roman identity and anyone who reads late antiquity will now it was not a peaceful one.
the crisis and the events that followed is what allowed for Christianity's growth while something as terrible as the crisis of the third century might not happened all the ingredients are there, from plagues the Spanish will bring, no succession laws on civil war, rebellious populations of recent conquered people, the Spanish attempting to choose , sides I am sure massive food banks are helping and but again if we are comparing to other collapses the bronze age kingdoms had many storages and a complex system and centralized system of how things worked but when the problems go to the big the states collapse a problem with having a god-king and priest is that if things go bad he and the priesthood are to blame
not saying this would have happened but see it this way is this scenario really implausible?
Plagues that the Spanish bring started to creep in and many died, this begins to create food shortages as some areas suffer more populations to move, as reserves being to dry up , areas that are not as affected can't deal with those areas affected, and the Inca solution of moving people to more productive land would not work here as harvests being to decline and since the Inca and priest who are supposed to bring order but as things become chaotic people start to say maybe they have angered the gods, the recent conquered people start to rebel and depending of the pod the help them or raid themselves as food shortages and population shifts continue it creates worsens any plague, more problems, Inca vassals revolt or try to get help but the state is busy dealing with its own issues and the supplies and system need for the Inca military also decline.
what happens next depends on many outcomes from hardline conservatism to the collapse of the old order
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I find it less likely got the reasons that the Spanish were in tiny numbers and the conquistador were for all intents and purposes unruly mercenaries that sometimes had approval of the king to do something let's not forget Cortez expedition was ilegal I don't see the Spanish crown having a crisis of confidence if some 500 Spanish failed to conquer an empire in fact that should be the immediate outcome if anything if Cortez fails I see more of a response of avoiding any idiot to try this again would it create this so yeah I don't think it's comparable the disaster of a failed small expedition and a plague
It really depends if it's top down I would agree the different would be if others convert because they want to or do ala vikings add Jesus to the pantheon which the Spanish wouldn't like of course
Yeah some people might see it as the Spanish came and caused this mess I mean Diocletian partially balmed the crisis on the chirstian but many also did change crisis can and would cement ones believe or make them forsake them
The Eastern Orthodox church is in no position to reach the New World. And there's no reason to convert for control of the Church a la Henry VII because the Sapa Inca already controls it. And if the goal is to dodge the Spanish it has to be Catholic.
The Civil War was a pretty straight succession war. And Atahualpa burned Topa Inca Yupanqui so, again, a viable non-conversion method.
Adaptation to technology does not require conversion.