Christianity in a surviving Aztec Empire and Inca Empire

GameBawesome

GameBawesome

So, this is a topic I've seen pop up from time to time, and there is much debate to it.

In this hypothetical scenario, in this timeline, Cortez fails to conquer the Aztec Empire, and Pizarro never goes off to conquer the Inca, and both native empires survived Spanish colonialism and never fall to conquistadors.

Now, with that in mind, how influential would Christianity spread in these native empires. We've familiar with Mesoamerican civilizations, particularly with the Aztecs, Human sacrifice was a huge deal in Mesoamerican religion. And with the Inca, their religion was part of every aspect of their life, work, festivities, ceremonies, etc.

So, with the mind that missionaries would come to the new world, to proselytize the Christian Faith, how influential would Christianity become in surviving Aztec Empire and Inca Empire, and how would it change the identity of these nations.

Could there be wide converts to the Christian faith in these empires? Could the rulership pick up the religion themselves? Could Christianity mix with native beliefs and religions?
 
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Silver01

depens now what if alt hist made the idea that aztecs would be threaten by Christianity but I don't know how true is it I don't trust the guy, I guess IMO it would depend if the Spanish can conquer to the north of Panama and the musica without Mexico that would mean Christianity would have a bigger presence from my knowledge of the inca I don't think its impossible a sapa inca who would dislike the idea of his ancestor's mummy controlling more land than he does, converts to claim it for himself, pissing of the priest who also controls the dead sapa inca lands.
 

vultan

One possibility is that the elites of one or both states still decide to convert to Christianity in order to curry favor with Europe and establish trade/diplomatic relations, but given that Spain’s failed conquest would likely give them a bad impression of Catholicism, maybe they go with some Protestant denomination, especially if the Dutch are still a significant global presence.

Of course, Christianization is not inevitable in such a scenario. The Jesuits tried very hard to spread their faith in Japan during this time period, and even made some real progress until the local Catholic presence was stamped out by the authorities. Should the Aztecs and/or Inca remain independent, they very well could do something similar.
 
Metempsychosis

Metempsychosis

vultan said:
One possibility is that the elites of one or both states still decide to convert to Christianity in order to curry favor with Europe and establish trade/diplomatic relations, but given that Spain’s failed conquest would likely give them a bad impression of Catholicism, maybe they go with some Protestant denomination, especially if the Dutch are still a significant global presence.

Of course, Christianization is not inevitable in such a scenario. The Jesuits tried very hard to spread their faith in Japan during this time period, and even made some real progress until the local Catholic presence was stamped out by the authorities. Should the Aztecs and/or Inca remain independent, they very well could do something similar.
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Japan had Buddhism to fortify itself intellectually against the assaults of Christianity's framework and the oceans to be too distant from Spain and Portugal to be worth the effort to crush by force. If the Mexica of Tenochtitlan remain independent somehow, it's probably because they convert or reform their system somehow. The region is too open to the Caribbean for adventurers not to be tempted to raid and pillage Mexico.

The Quechua of Tawantinsuyu, on the other hand, have more space to avoid that fate, being isolated in the mountains. They might be able to stamp out Christianity while assimilating what they can of their ways to survive.
 

faddllz

perhaps later an enemy state rose up. this tribe could be or would be a christian as a sign of opposition to the aztec empire.
 

Lalli

Not sure if A<tecs and Incas can survive at this point anymore. Aztecs were already pretty hated and vassals wwere going to revolt against them.

And prior of Pizarro's arrival, Inca Empire suffered from diseases and civil war.

So I would suggest some earlier POD like preventing Inca Civil War. Not sure what to do with Aztecs.

But if Spaniards still gets strong foothold in Americas, Christianity would become quiet influental. Aztecs probably would still convert even if the empire survives. Elites would see that being benefit and Europeans can't stand with pagan empire which sacrifices humans in masses.

Incas have probably better changes to keep their religion altough Christianity would spread there too.

And in both cases Christianity would probably has several loval influences.
 

MusuMankata

The Atzec Empire, by Cortès' time, was on its last legs, as their usage of human sacrifice went beyond what their vassals and neighbours practiced (read: around 100 human sacrifices per year, versus the 1000s or so if the Atzecs) and its behaviour had made its most disloyal vassals and nearby polities disgruntled enough to ally with somebody who was essentially an alien. Conversion to Christianity might get a sort of political meaning, but there's no way the Atzec elitès or peasants, for as long as they will hold on (a few years tops), will convert to Christianity in large numbers before falling.
In the aftermath, though, I can see the weaker polities in Mesoamerica decide to pick up Catholic Christianity (or an hybridised form of it at least) to make a clear break from their neighbours' practices, as well as political protection from and by eager Spanish (and later other other Europeans) armies and missionaries.

The Inca Empire could have realistically lasted even after Pizarro. As mentioned elsewhere, a Sapa Inca upset that a royal mummy has more land than he does might be tempted to convert just to seize it, but how much of his worship and attempts to evangelize resemble Christianity as we know it is up in the air, unless a jesuit equivalent manages to get in his good graces and influence him enough.

Either way, I can't say Protestantism or Calvin's or Zwinglism would be something I'd expect either place to adopt on their own, as the advantage of not having to listen to an external hierarchy is outweighed by the more other doctrinal aspects that are hard to ignore, like Sola Scriptura and the like.
 
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sarapen

Speaking of Japan, rebellious Christian daimyo got guns supplied to them by the Europeans, so even if most imperial elites are hostile, there could still be Christian opportunists (or maybe even true believers) in the Aztec and Inca empires, or among their hostile neighbours.
 
Lothal

Lothal

sarapen said:
Speaking of Japan, rebellious Christian daimyo got guns supplied to them by the Europeans, so even if most imperial elites are hostile, there could still be Christian opportunists (or maybe even true believers) in the Aztec and Inca empires, or among their hostile neighbours.
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Tlaxcala…
 

173rd LRRP

We spent 12 weeks in Ecuadoe and Peru a few years. Our tourist guides at Ollantaytambo, around Cusco, Lake Tititataca (sic) all spoke Quechua and said that their children have or would receive Quechua names. Two said that they were part of a revival to bring back worship of the old religious pantheon
 
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Vinization

UnaiB said:
@Vinization
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I have been summoned!

I don't know about the Tawantinsuyu, but regarding the Aztecs I can definitely see some local lords subtly or not-so-subtly converting to Christianity (or at least tolerating Spanish missionaries) as a way to both defy Tenochtitlan's power and get military support from Spain, particularly once the number of people available for sacrifice plummets due to the epidemics of smallpox, typhus and so on. I wouldn't be surprised if the higher ups of the Triple Alliance adopt a couple of aspects from it as well - their unusually high thirst for human sacrifices was really just an excuse to wage war more often.
 

Silver01

173rd LRRP said:
Chador and Peru a few years. Our tourist guides at Ollantaytambo, around Cusco, Lake Tititataca (sic) all spoke Quechua and said that their children have or would receive Que hua names. Two said that they were part of a revival to bring back worship of the old religious pantheon
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Yeah there not common most people are roman Catholic they have adapted many local festivities to catholic ones quechua sadly is on the decline but still with out the conquest I would suspect traditional polytheist would still be a majority
 
Aluma

Aluma

I think Japan was a whole different beast from the Inca & Aztec altogether

I'd expect the aztec to collapse into a bunch of polities made up of their vassals with some practicing Christianity while others dont
Regardless, even without colonization you'd likely see human sacrifice either being tonned down(like those rituals were people just bleed their hands a bit for the deities) or disappearing altogether as it would be intolerable to their christian neighbours and the europeans alike, the former option being more likely, while the europeans themselves like they often did would keep playing these polities as chess pieces among themselves for further profit till either they united into a pan-central american confederation of sorts to push back or the european imperial power collapsed due to external factors

As for the Inca they would be experiencing a period of unstability due to their civil war as mentioned above, so even if Pizarro fails I dont think they would be able to afford going murder-happy against the missionaries knowing there's more white people out there who would be angered by such move
(I mean they might, but it wouldnt be good for their health)
However I totally see them bouncing back after the civil war with their Imperial power consolidating once again
In that case I believe rather than try kill christians(which by that point would make a sizeable amount of their population) they'd create their own "imperial sponsored" Christianity with what they approve of their subjects believing/practicing and banning what they do not, while still practicing their traditional religion(though like with the aztecs having some soul searching regarding human sacrifices), and without a colonial power taking them over I could see this post-civil war/restoration Incan Empire upgrading itself to not get caught off guard by another Pizarro again
That Inca Empire perhaps would be more like Japan in the sense of being a distinct culture on par with the colonial powers
 

Silver01

173rd LRRP said:
10,000,000 speakers
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between Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Chile, and Argentina whos total population whos countries combined reach 123 million so Quechua speakers are like in the whole less than 10% if you combine them all,also those were the 2004 numbers the 2016 one have lowered them to 7.8 million while Peruvian quechua usage has increased from 3360 331 million to 3799 780 in 10 years.
 

Catspoke

So maybe the Inca attack Pizzaro's small force at night with surprise or some such POD from their original encounter,

They keep a few Spaniards alive, to learn their ways, so to be better able to prepare against a larger force, perhaps some European rivals to the Spaniards are willing to trade, even "previous gen" non powder weapons, crossbows and pikes, for gold and copper, that the INCA could fight on more equal terms.

Its real hard for the Spanish to power project with 1500s capabilities, if the Inca were actually equipped with something better than stone age weapons. So I could see them surviving really until the late 1700s when the Europeans ability to power project (like the British in India) became possible.

Inca religious beliefs which is basically "god king" sort of combines with the political patronage system so I imagine the Inca would resist missionary conversion unless as mentioned above, some ruler decides that adopting the Spaniards religion might allow them to remain independent.

The PODs of these empires surviving are considerable since Spanish military prowess was funded by Inca gold, and the inflation of Spanish gold fleets really messed with some countries economies especially the Ottomans.
 

Coivara

Banned
Ins't the claim of the Sapa Inca essentially a Divine Claim to Rulership?

Seems like the Incan Empire would never take well to Christianity and its monotheism.
Perhaps Christianity becomes a religion of the opressed, complete with persecution?
Which might end up causing issues with Europeans.

On Mesoamerica... The Cross might be the symbol of the fight against the Aztecs. Perhaps the Tlaxcala christianize and adhere to this New God who sacrificed himself for his own followers.
The Catholic Clergy/Jesuits start propping up the Tlaxcala/Other group's ruler and his bid for power and end to the sacrifices. Cue religious wars between the followers of the Old Faith and the New, with the New Faith being propped by the Spanish and other europeans. European volunteers and pilgrims take up arms in the "American Crusade". In the end, a kingdom is born of blood, steel and faith, unifying much of Mesoamerica.

Essentially, a Crusader Kingdom of Mesoamericans, mixed-race mestiços and their european friends.

Hmmm... I wonder what would be a good name for such a polity?
 
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