Century of Humiliation under a Native Han-Chinese Dynasty?

[GameBawesome]

In OTL, in Chinese History, the Century of Humiliation was a term used to describe the 19th Century for China

To greatly simplify, It started when the Qing Dynasty had a war with the British, which happened because Opium through Bengal was becoming a problem in China. This all stems from trade inbalances between the Europeans and Chinese, which in the end, lead to China being forcefully opened up. It then lead to another Opium War, which coincide with the Taiping Rebellion, and then Foreign concessions, and then the Boxer Rebellion, and after the overthrow of the Qing Dynasty

OTL, the Qing Dynasty was the family that oversaw these Opium Wars. They weren’t Han Chinese, they were Manchu, a Sino-Tungusic ethnicity from Manchuria that conquered China in the mid-16th Century.

Hypothetically, if the Qing Dynasty never rose, and the Ming Dynasty barely survived or more likely another Han-Chinese Dynasty rose in it’s place, how would this effect the Century of Humiliation?

Could it potentially be worst then OTL, or somewhat better?

 

[Jonathan1997]

I believe the Chinese proplems where mostly from within but were exacerbated by out side factors it was the internal problems and child emperors that ended imperial Chinese history. I would say that Lasted nearly 200 years because if the war lord period after the 1911 Revolution and the disaster of the mousey tongue government. My apologies I don't know how to spell the leader of China name from 1949.

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

In OTL, in Chinese History, the Century of Humiliation was a term used to describe the 19th Century for China

To greatly simplify, It started when the Qing Dynasty had a war with the British, which happened because Opium through Bengal was becoming a problem in China. This all stems from trade inbalances between the Europeans and Chinese, which in the end, lead to China being forcefully opened up. It then lead to another Opium War, which coincide with the Taiping Rebellion, and then Foreign concessions, and then the Boxer Rebellion, and after the overthrow of the Qing Dynasty

OTL, the Qing Dynasty was the family that oversaw these Opium Wars. They weren’t Han Chinese, they were Manchu, a Sino-Tungusic ethnicity from Manchuria that conquered China in the mid-16th Century.

Hypothetically, if the Qing Dynasty never rose, and the Ming Dynasty barely survived or more likely another Han-Chinese Dynasty rose in it’s place, how would this effect the Century of Humiliation?

Could it potentially be worst then OTL, or somewhat better?

Probably less harassment of Chinese men in the USA, since Chinese men wore Manchu pigtails.

 

[GameBawesome]

Probably less harassment of Chinese men in the USA, since Chinese men wore Manchu pigtails.

That’s actually another question I asked previously. The cultural perception of China would change, as like you said, without the Qing, the Manchu Queue is never widespread, meaning the Han Topknot that was used for centuries would be the main imagery of China

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

That’s actually another question I asked previously. The cultural perception of China would change, as like you said, without the Qing, the Manchu Queue is never widespread, meaning the Han Topknot that was used for centuries would be the main imagery of China

Maybe discrimination of the Chinese in the West for wearing Han topknot?

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

Maybe discrimination of the Chinese in the West for wearing Han topknot?

People will find anything to alienate and mock the other.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Hypothetically, if the Qing Dynasty never rose, and the Ming Dynasty barely survived or more likely another Han-Chinese Dynasty rose in it’s place, how would this effect the Century of Humiliation?

Well, for one thing, the Imperial government would not draw the elite corps of its army from from an ethnically distinct military caste which by the 1800s had degenerated into parasites. Very probably, the Imperial army would be stronger and more efficient.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

Probably less harassment of Chinese men in the USA, since Chinese men wore Manchu pigtails.

The Qing Dynasty was proclaimed in 1636. With a POD presumably before then, it's far from certain there would be a USA, even with the POD happening halfway around the world.

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

The Qing Dynasty was proclaimed in 1636. With a POD presumably before then, it's far from certain there would be a USA, even with the POD happening halfway around the world.

I can still see the 13 colonies rebel

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

I can still see the 13 colonies rebel

Oh it's plausible to still have the colonies rebel, but we have to keep in mind butterflies would mean different people would be born. Even if everyone pairs up the same way the slight differences in position would result in eggs being fertilized by different sperm. We'd have different players. There would be no George Washington or George III. No Ben Franklin or John, Samuel, or Abigail Adams. The MPs would all be different.

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

Oh it's plausible to still have the colonies rebel, but we have to keep in mind butterflies would mean different people would be born. Even if everyone pairs up the same way the slight differences in position would result in eggs being fertilized by different sperm. We'd have different players. There would be no George Washington or George III. No Ben Franklin or John, Samuel, or Abigail Adams. The MPs would all be different.

George Washington and George 3 were both of British descent, what does the Chinese have to do with this?

 

[GameBawesome]

Oh it's plausible to still have the colonies rebel, but we have to keep in mind butterflies would mean different people would be born. Even if everyone pairs up the same way the slight differences in position would result in eggs being fertilized by different sperm. We'd have different players. There would be no George Washington or George III. No Ben Franklin or John, Samuel, or Abigail Adams. The MPs would all be different.

George Washington and George 3 were both of British descent, what does the Chinese have to do with this?

Okay, I know this isn’t on topic, and I feel like I’m being rude it, but I just got to get this out there because this has always been a pet-peeve of mine in Alternate history.

Just because something happened across the planet doesn’t effect non-direct entities. That is not how the butterfly effect works in history. Just because the Qing never rose doesn’t effect the births of people across the globe, unless directly near them. Just because the Kangxi Emperor is never born, doesn’t effect European monarchies in the slightest.

That’s just my tidbit.

 

[Avrorrange]

Okay, I know this isn’t on topic, and I feel like I’m being rude it, but I just got to get this out there because this has always been a pet-peeve of mine in Alternate history.

Just because something happened across the planet doesn’t effect non-direct entities. That is not how the butterfly effect works in history. Just because the Qing never rose doesn’t effect the births of people across the globe, unless directly near them. Just because the Kangxi Emperor is never born, doesn’t effect European monarchies in the slightest.

That’s just my tidbit.

That’s pure BS. China had trade with the entire world at this point in time. What would happen if an ancestor of an settler to the US who was a sailor got killed during a trip to China for example? Or what would happen if one of these sailors brought a disease back to Europe that managed to kill the ancestor of someone like Washington?

 

[Paraiba]

That’s pure BS. China had trade with the entire world at this point in time. What would happen if an ancestor of an settler to the US who was a sailor got killed during a trip to China for example? Or what would happen if one of these sailors brought a disease back to Europe that managed to kill the ancestor of someone like Washington?

It doesn't really have all that much effect at the United States, though. Some famous people not existing (Though they would still be replaced someone else in that case) doesn't mean that British North America will become unrecognizable by default. It's completely possible that things play similar to OTL, just with some different names.

 

[GameBawesome]

That’s pure BS. China had trade with the entire world at this point in time. What would happen if an ancestor of an settler to the US who was a sailor got killed during a trip to China for example? Or what would happen if one of these sailors brought a disease back to Europe that managed to kill the ancestor of someone like Washington?

First off, such a tiny thing like that, is a one to a million to even predict or even occurring. It's literally impossible to predict such a specific and tiny event occurring to such a specific person's ancestor, that it's not a practical variable when predicting a POD.

Getting rid of the Qing will have consequences in the Long-run (IE 19th-20th Century), as certain people of Chinese-ancestry are butterflied away. But saying someone of majority European descent across the globe in the 18th Century, is butterflied away is ludicrous.

Anyway, this is getting off topic, so can we get back to the topic at hand.

 

[Euphemios]

Just because something happened across the planet doesn’t effect non-direct entities. That is not how the butterfly effect works in history. Just because the Qing never rose doesn’t effect the births of people across the globe, unless directly near them. Just because the Kangxi Emperor is never born, doesn’t effect European monarchies in the slightest.

I must disagree, as even the lack of a POD, with history simply being replayed from a point, would result in drastic changes to the timeline. To say that the absence of a dynasty with millions of subjects would not change something as fickle as the genetic lottery, be the subject one kilometre or five thousand away, is nothing short of inattention.

 

[Richard V]

An ethnic Han dynasty would have a much easier time modernizing. The Manchus simply could not modernize the way Japan did as they ruled China with a tiny minority and were in constant danger of Han rebellion. Modernization is a disruptive, violent act. It leads to established players falling from power and the marginalized gaining power and new ideas of how to run things. It would be as if, after Elizabeth I died England was torn by civil war and the Scots conquered the country and forced everyone to wear kilts and play bagpipes. Such a regime is structurally unable to open up to powerful foreign players without tempting rebellion. Therefore, in theory a Han ruled empire would face less obstacles.

That is if they chose to. The Ming was an extremely isolationist dynasty. A similar dynasty would probably refuse to open up until after they lost a major war. But would a successor dynasty be as isolationist? Perhaps not. For such a dynasty to withstand Manchu invasion and emerge from the civil war victorious would probably need to adopt a great deal of Western technology. The Ming and early Qing did this but after peace was secured by the late 17th century they lost interest. In this timeline the Qing will probably continue to threaten them, and they are still capable of building a large empire conquering Mongolia, Xinjiang and Tibet, even north China. So it’s entirely possible this dynasty has a much better understanding of Europe early on. In 1613 Japan sent the Keicho embassy to Mexico and the Vatican. Siam made an embassy to the court of Louis XIV in 1686. What impact a fully engaged China would have on Europe and the New World would be hard to answer.

 

[Carter I'm Yog]

The Ming was an extremely isolationist dynasty.

In its earliest days, then opened up and closed on and off. Whether the Ming was open or isolationist really depends on exactly when we are talking about.

Just like the Qing went from isolationist-Canton only-five treaty ports-further opening up.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

George Washington and George 3 were both of British descent, what does the Chinese have to do with this?

Getting rid of the Qing will have consequences in the Long-run (IE 19th-20th Century), as certain people of Chinese-ancestry are butterflied away. But saying someone of majority European descent across the globe in the 18th Century, is butterflied away is ludicrous.

George Washington was born in 1732. There are 40 million sperm in the average human ejaculation. Evan a slight change in position during sex (or afterwards but before fertilization) would result in a different sperm fertilizing the egg. Ditto for having sex at a slightly different time. After 100 years there are going to be said slight changes.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I agree that "realistically" butterflies will change things greatly. Things could even be different at the quantum level, which would affect things at an untold scale.

But at the same time, for useful discussion, we can choose to consider some things still happening the same way, especially if they're a good distance away. Especially since we're talking about many worlds, we can say that some worlds have history in other parts of the world play out almost exactly the same.

That said, a native Chinese dynasty would completely butterfly the Century of Humiliation because there's no telling how it would deal with European encroachment. It could withstand it or fall even before it. It would be completely impossible to speculate "realistically".