Beating a Dead Sea Mammal: How can a non-ASB Operation Sea Lion thread be created?

[Ian_W]

The only way that was possible was if they had intimate knowledge of what Fermi and the other American scientists did.

I think you have it backwards.

Without intimate knowledge of what Chadwick and the rest of the British had done, I think the American program ends up in a similar "atomic boiler" cul-de-sac as the OTL German program.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I think you have it backwards.

Without intimate knowledge of what Chadwick and the rest of the British had done, I think the American program ends up in a similar "atomic boiler" cul-de-sac as the OTL German program.

In addition to your point, implosion type devices need shaped charges to make sure it all compresses at the same time. And the use of Teflon in the production... the physics is only one piece of the puzzle. Engineering it is another harder piece. Why else has North Korea's relatively fizzled a year or 2 ago?

 

[hammerdin]

I think you have it backwards.

Without intimate knowledge of what Chadwick and the rest of the British had done, I think the American program ends up in a similar "atomic boiler" cul-de-sac as the OTL German program.

Entirely false. This is what the British gave to the Americans

The MAUD Report, 1941 Report by MAUD Committee on the Use of Uranium for a Bomb

Frisch-Peierls Memorandum, March 1940 On the Construction of a "Super-bomb" based on a Nuclear Chain Reaction in Uranium

For the most part they are completely laughable documents that contributed absolutely nothing.

They just could not afford it, during the war. Not like Germany could. And I tell you something else, if Germany had gone with graphite as the moderator for their reactors like Fermi had done, this conversation would be a lot more grim for the British.

They were broke unlike the Germans.

They were spending 580,000 pounds on research and a gas diffusion plant, and it was going to have to eat away at spending for other things if the program were kept going. Almost a drop in the bucket to the kind of resources that America would be putting in, or Germany could have been.

In addition to your point, implosion type devices need shaped charges to make sure it all compresses at the same time. And the use of Teflon in the production... the physics is only one piece of the puzzle. Engineering it is another harder piece. Why else has North Korea's relatively fizzled a year or 2 ago?

Where did you read they used Teflon in the production of Fat Man? They used it for Little Boy, not Fat Man. The Germans had bondur anyways. There are actually alternative to teflon

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

@hammerdin I wasn't referring to a specific device, I was referring to the effort needed to get 2 devices ready- from "The Battle of Kansas" to new chemicals to shaped charges and everything else, and how North Korea has shown even modern states have to use trial and error to get it right.

 

[Aber]

Entirely false. This is what the British gave to the Americans

The MAUD Report, 1941 Report by MAUD Committee on the Use of Uranium for a Bomb

Frisch-Peierls Memorandum, March 1940 On the Construction of a "Super-bomb" based on a Nuclear Chain Reaction in Uranium

For the most part they are completely laughable documents that contributed absolutely nothing.

So where are the contemporary US equivalents?

And Frisch and Peierls contributed nothing to the US effort?

 

[McPherson]

@hammerdin in

Patent number US2708656A

That patent (see diagrams) is based off the Chicago pile, so how is it not the first PRACTICAL attempt?

The previous patents look to be "paper exercises".

Calculations in your other example are based off the Chicago pile for German magnitude of error 3x that was estimated. I think your author(s) may have goofed their own math up. Awaiting your results, to see if we both agree. Good work by the way of finding this stuff. (McP.)

P.S. The Germany economy was allegedly busted flat broke by 1939 headed into a financial crisis according to Mason though Overy argues otherwise. Whatever the fundamentals undelying the Berlin maniac's economic mismanagement thesis one argues, though, Ideological or actual financial, the result is the same. WW II only postponed the economic meltdown until 19i44. Germany was bankrupt and ran her war and economy on looting her conquered enemies and/or "fiat money". Sort of like the Confederacy and the CCCP.

 

[CalBear]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/secret-files-reveal-nazis-tested-9905027

Secret files reveal Nazis 'tested nuclear bomb' before end of WW2 as Adolf Hitler plotted to decimate Britain by Allan Hall



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/nazis-and-the-bomb.html

Nazis and the Bomb by Mark Walker



http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/95524

Manfred Petritsch 2018 geopolitical analysis + US 'ignited' Los Alamos bomb with Nazi nuclear know-how

This is an ALTERNATE history site. not an Alternative history site. Please keep silly conspiracy theories, even mild ones like this, out of here.

BTW: This likely should be a kick, since Conspiracy mongering is a Kick offense, but this one is so easily disproved I'm going light. Don't make me regret it.

 

[Ian_W]

They just could not afford it, during the war. Not like Germany could. And I tell you something else, if Germany had gone with graphite as the moderator for their reactors like Fermi had done, this conversation would be a lot more grim for the British.

They were broke unlike the Germans.

Wow. Just wow. It's like I've wandered into an alternative universe with a different WW2.

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/public/ehr88postprint.pdf

Table 1 would be a good start to your 'broke unlike the Germans' fantasy.

Germany didn't go with graphite because - and this is part of the essence of all this - their scientists weren't very good at scaling up lab physics to mass engineering.

Add this to the noted German desire in WW2 weapons development to make something perfect, as opposed to something good enough, and you get the choice to use heavy water.

Seriously, if you want to understand WW2, stop playing Hearts of Iron 3 - it grossly over-rates German industry. In reality, Germany's industrial base was a bit bigger than the UK, but not by much, about the same size as the USSR's and a lot smaller than that of the US. Additionally, most of the captured territory cost as much to occupy as it produced.

 

[Garrison]

Seriously, if you want to understand WW2, stop playing Hearts of Iron 3 - it grossly over-rates German industry. In reality, Germany's industrial base was a bit bigger than the UK, but not by much, about the same size as the USSR's and a lot smaller than that of the US. Additionally, most of the captured territory cost as much to occupy as it produced.

France and a number of the occupied countries in Western Europe were heavily dependent on imports for industry and agriculture. Far from benefiting Germany they were a burden on a system where critical resources like oil, rubber, coal and copper were already in short supply. There was also the fact that, unsurprisingly, productivity per worker in the occupied countries collapsed. The weakness of the Nazi economy before and during WWII is one of the main reasons why trying to create a non-ASB Sealion is pretty much impossible.

 

[hammerdin]

This is an ALTERNATE history site. not an Alternative history site. Please keep silly conspiracy theories, even mild ones like this, out of here.

BTW: This likely should be a kick, since Conspiracy mongering is a Kick offense, but this one is so easily disproved I'm going light. Don't make me regret it.

I dont disagree. Although i have seen you let people go scott free for throwing around Hitler micropenis conspiracy theories so I thought maybe I was in the clear.

Wow. Just wow. It's like I've wandered into an alternative universe with a different WW2.

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/public/ehr88postprint.pdf

Table 1 would be a good start to your 'broke unlike the Germans' fantasy.

Germany didn't go with graphite because - and this is part of the essence of all this - their scientists weren't very good at scaling up lab physics to mass engineering.

Add this to the noted German desire in WW2 weapons development to make something perfect, as opposed to something good enough, and you get the choice to use heavy water.

Seriously, if you want to understand WW2, stop playing Hearts of Iron 3 - it grossly over-rates German industry. In reality, Germany's industrial base was a bit bigger than the UK, but not by much, about the same size as the USSR's and a lot smaller than that of the US. Additionally, most of the captured territory cost as much to occupy as it produced.

I am going to go easy on this post and you, and I will probably exit this debate after.

The American process that I found for nuclear graphite and the Girdler sulfide process (German heavy water). The American method is closer to things like the Ames process (for uranium metal) and the Brooks method (for American nuclear graphite) and technologies that are rooted in pre-1900 ( Hans Goldschmidt method and Acheson process) in their sophistication.

Why again is heavy water not mass engineering (whatever that means) and graphite apparently is? If tha is what you are saying as it certainly sounds like it.

As to your article. I think Ill put it this way. Germany spent 50% more on tgeir rockets than America spent on their bomb project. Balls in your court. I know full well that the British were serious enough to dish out that kond of money with their atomic bomb project if they had too but I am sure not going to prove it for you.

 

[CalBear]

I dont disagree. Although i have seen you let people go scott free for throwing around Hitler micropenis conspiracy theories so I thought maybe I was in the clear.



...

Really? You get a pass and you respond like this?

Is this your hill of choice?

 

[McPherson]

Getting this thread reoriented to the subject might be helpful I hope?

Article: contrasts and compares Sea Lion to Overlord.

Personal opinion: I think TORCH would be a better comparison as to the hasty defense in place and the meticulous planning and huge resources necessary to overcome even such a minimalist defense. (Considerable planning and rather large resources set aside, one should point out.)

 

[Alternate_History_Buff]

So my Sea Mammal discussion thread turned into a conspiracy mongering laboratory with people claiming German scientists invented a nuclear bomb? I'm not pleased.

I went off this thread for a while and saw people posting this shit. Please pack up your conspiracy theories and take them elsewhere. CalBear should just ban them. I had previous people on other threads go way off topic. For example, on a Fall of Moscow thread I had posted previously, people were talking about the TVA and America's electricity network in the 30s and 40s. Seriously. Please stay on topic and keep this thread pure. Instead of making conspiracies about Germany getting a nuclear bomb, let us discuss about the Sea Mammal and if it could ever happen.

Thank you very much for reading. I had to say this cause this shit is stupid (pardon the language but I am frustrated at this being repeated in my threads).

 

[Ryan B]

I think rather than asking for the impossible the Navy were in fact looking for the minimum required to do their job. "However as experience has shown the bombers and mine-laying squadrons of the RAF are still fully operational, and it must be admitted that the operations of these British squadrons have undoubtedly been successful, though serious interference with or prevention of German transport movements have not resulted so far." That is the Navy saying on the 10th September that air power is being a real pain but thanks to a little forwards planning on their part they had the reserves to make up losses. The no thanks to the Luftwaffe part went unsaid. By the 16th they are complaining of increased air activity and of course the operation was duly cancelled on the 17th.

)l)