Beating a Dead Sea Mammal: How can a non-ASB Operation Sea Lion thread be created?

Depends. How many planes, how many pilots, how many controllers available at a given time. You should be able to figure it out, but now you are just fighting to prove you are not wrong. Not my problem.
 
Well actually the burden of proof is on you... universally accepted and documented that a sector could control no more than four squadrons.
 
I have supplied the proof that your statement is not supportable. We have reached the grasping at straws stage here. And no I will not explain it further. You already have what you need to understand. (^^^^).
 
NCS... you've not said anything that is relevant. At one point you said the radio net could cope with 24 squadrons for instance if I read it right but the documented evidence does not support this.
 
Neither of those mention the number of squadrons controlled... maybe you should try the book "Battle of Britain: RAF Operations Manual" it gives a far more in depth look at the whole system.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Y'all need to stop sniping other members and play the ball.

Really DO NOT want me to have to roll back in here.
 
That is simply not the case, there is ample evidence, some of it from Heisenberg himself, that he worked on the idea of a nuclear bomb during the war. The only real argument is whether he deliberately sabotaged the program or simply made a series of errors that led the German project into a dead end.

Heisenberg knew uranium for a bomb would not be in thousands of kilograms as has been proven elsewhere and which was even proven in one of the articles I posted. He was trying to mislead the Americans, who he was convinced did not have the bomb yet. We must only reach one reasonable, logical conclusion from this. That he was feeding them misinformation. And you have no evidence. I know it and you know it.

A Neutronics Study of the 1945 Haigerloch B-VIII Nuclear Reactor
Giacomo Grasso, Carlo Oppici, Federico Rocchi, and Marco Sumini


The only thing that was stopping this reactor from going critical was that there was not enough heavy water and uranium. It wasn't large enough. This makes sense based on what can be discerned about modern nuclear reactor know how, that it wasn't large enough, what is most significant is that there were no other real problems to reaching criticality with the reactor that was found by these researchers.

In other words, the Germans were neaerly to the point where they could begin acquiring the fissile material for a bomb.

:p
Briefing for the Prime Minister 12 December 1951, PREM 11/297 National Archives.

The British didn't even begin reactor experiments until 1945 OTL, and that was with the Americans holding their hand.

They were years behind the Germans.

The British post-war atomic bomb project cost 140 million pounds (compared to 2 billion dollars for the Manhattan project), but...

The Germans spent this much just on two heavy water plants

Production of heavy water, and erection of heavy- water plant by I. G. Farben at Leuna works, Merseburg 1,200,000 RM

Construction of heavy-water plant by Linde’s Ice Machinery Factory 1,300,000 RM.

That translates to like a 100,000 British pounds or so I think. So, yeah. And these seem to be big ticket items

I don't think the British OTL nuclear program was exactly lightweight, compared to the German OTL one.

There is absolutely no evidence you have produced that would lead me to believe that the British devote more resources to a nuclear program during the war than they did OTL. OTL they had a wake up call about the reality of nuclear weapons, they were willing to put down the money for it. Where is the sense of expediency that British lawmakers feel in putting high priority to a nuclear program here, when the money is desperately needed for other things? none

And even still, the British were swimming in the money, and they still managed to accomplish the given time frame. The Germans were not swimming in that kind of money, at least for the time being.

Fyi, the British nuclear program didn't just stop during the war. They still were building reactors in Canada. The fact that their first one was a pure success is a dead giveaway they owed it entirely to the Americans I think.
 
hey, Sealion was totally possible! I mean, check out this game book from Warlord Games. Obviously, they think Sealion was possible, they must have read books and stuff. I mean, they wouldn't just fudge historical accuracy to make some cash selling this book, would they?
401010003_Operation_Sea_lion_grande.jpg
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Okay, you may not know this, but the Mirror is a British tabloid newspaper known for lurid journalism of the worst kind. They are in NO WAY a reputable source! If it claimed the sun came up in the east, I would immediately start looking for independent confirmation of that fact. Using them as a source does not enhance the quality of your claim.

Sadly the Mirror papers were once the leading progressive newspapers under some truly great editors & journalists (such as John Pilger). Nearly got banned by Churchill during the War. Then Cap'n Bob Maxwell purchased them.
 
A Neutronics Study of the 1945 Haigerloch B-VIII Nuclear Reactor
Giacomo Grasso, Carlo Oppici, Federico Rocchi, and Marco Sumini

Overglyph; here.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears the Germans goofed by a factor of 3x? Their pile was too small and their subsequent calculations based off it, would have still been a blind alley dead end result. They seem to have miscalculated the scale up needed. Fermi got it right at his first time attempt. Was that pure luck?
 
hey, Sealion was totally possible! I mean, check out this game book from Warlord Games. Obviously, they think Sealion was possible, they must have read books and stuff. I mean, they wouldn't just fudge historical accuracy to make some cash selling this book, would they?
View attachment 373273

I would have gone with the Who Quadrophenia scooter picture, but with a paratrooper instead of the Mod kid.
 
Heisenberg knew uranium for a bomb would not be in thousands of kilograms as has been proven elsewhere and which was even proven in one of the articles I posted. He was trying to mislead the Americans, who he was convinced did not have the bomb yet. We must only reach one reasonable, logical conclusion from this. That he was feeding them misinformation. And you have no evidence. I know it and you know it.

What I know is that there is plenty of evidence that Heisenberg either sabotaged the German program or simply screwed up. You want to believe otherwise that's your prerogative, still no idea what this has to do with Sealion mind you.
 

Ian_W

Banned
What I know is that there is plenty of evidence that Heisenberg either sabotaged the German program or simply screwed up. You want to believe otherwise that's your prerogative, still no idea what this has to do with Sealion mind you.

Hammerdin's thinking is apparently that the Germans - who apparently stuffed up the size of a nuclear reactor, used a more expensive and difficult moderator that the British put effort into destroying the means of production of (*) and whose best scientist only calculated the correct amount of fissile material needed after Hisoshima - were capable of building a nuke in 1947 that would destroy the RN.

This would therefore allow Sealion.

Of course, if the Germans have the Bomb and the UK does not, then Sealion itself is not necessary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_the_United_Kingdom is a good summary of the MAUD committee and so on in OTL.



(*) Norsk Hydro's heavy water plant was the subject of substantial British activity, which indicated the British understanding of things nuclear.
 
Overglyph; here.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears the Germans goofed by a factor of 3x? Their pile was too small and their subsequent calculations based off it, would have still been a blind alley dead end result. They seem to have miscalculated the scale up needed. Fermi got it right at his first time attempt. Was that pure luck?

Fermi had multiple reactors in 1941 for example before the famous one that was working at the end of 1942. In his patent

Patent number US2708656A

he describes how the use of an exponential reactor helps. No one could get it right in their first attempt. It isn't possible. Except in the case of the British if they already have the knowledge. ZEEP was I believe the first reactor that the Canadians/British explicitly built themselves. The only way that was possible was if they had intimate knowledge of what Fermi and the other American scientists did.

He may have even had one in 1934 before nuclear fission was even discovered yet.

Currently, I need to ask

How did you get the 'factor of 3x'? At the moment, I am trying to run the next German reactor through the OpenMC Monte Carlo code in the hope to see if it would actually work. Hopefully, I can come up with a actual result.

By subsequent calculations are you referring to the supposed Heisenberg calculation that stated they needed 745 kg more heavy water and uranium? A likely result in that case is that he wasn't right, I agree, but I would still like to know what the heavy water uranium requirements for a reactor would have been. (they would probably still be very close even if the next one was a failure it may be absolutely negligible time wise)

Please re-read the bolded bits you wrote, and then consider your position.

Remember, the actual a-team of 20th century physicists alerted their political leadership of the possibility of an atomic bomb on 2 August 1939. Heisenberg was six years late.

The Germans were trying to acquire plutonium 239 for a bomb. This necessitates an implosion type bomb, as a gun-type bomb is not practical for a bomb using plutonium-239. The Germans had not really ever considered design for a bomb, certainly it seems that they hadn't figured out the idea of an implosion type bomb. Apparently they had not got that far to consider this. It would have been more productive to work on this problem concurrently with trying to get a working reactor

Not that they couldn't work it out eventually, mind you. If their first reactor goes critical in 1945, that gives them a lot of lead time over the British. The British who would probably be utterly helpless to even get a bomb if it weren't for the Americans holding their hand.

The British thought in 1941, they'd be able to get a bomb as early as 1943 according to your wikipedia article.

What I know is that there is plenty of evidence that Heisenberg either sabotaged the German program or simply screwed up. You want to believe otherwise that's your prerogative, still no idea what this has to do with Sealion mind you.

If you do not share the evidence, then there is no evidence. That is the way it works.

Read that again, slowly.

Supposedly, a implosion type bomb is more difficult than a gun-type bomb. Otherwise, I would say that the effort would be negligible for the Germans, and they would have a bomb very soon from when they lost.

The Germans had not even begun work on for example explosive lenses, I gather, a necessary development for a bomb. I guess they at least knew what a neutron reflector was. The tamper is made out of natural uranium.

Of course, I guess there is little point in putting any effort into that if you don't have the plutonium for a bomb.

And if Hitler had elected to put more resources into the nuclear program rather than wasting them on extraneous rocket projects, and other resource drains, the Germans would possibly have gotten a working nuclear reactor far sooner than we are talking about now, as it would have fast tracked the experiments.
 
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