As Dreamers Do: American Magic Redux

[QTXAdsy]

How do you like the TL so far?

What are your favorite parts?

For us looking back from the original TL, I'm liking some of the changes so far and will look forward as the decades go on, I do have one thing ask regarding one unmade film that might be possible if you're interested.

However, one question is what are the differences with this version of Alice (not including the animation style) from OTL version such as story, characters etc.?

I could help you with a cast list for Hansel and Gretel if you give me a list of the characters that would be included in the film. Looking forward to see that happens next!

 

[OldNavy1988]

First off, I wonder how both Walts feel about Roy's death... Second, I looked up the characters that Harvey Comics has created, and let me tell you that there is A LOT of potential for media adaptations by Fox! Finally, I want to see Motown-Warner acquire DC Comics, so that there could be something that OTL has in common with TTL.

Fox had actually been licensing the Fox Movietoon characters to Harvey for about 20 years now. So the relationship has already been such that the acquisition was made without any fuss.

Binged the threadmarks. Great Timeline!

Will Tim Burton be part of Hyperion Pictures? Seems like an obvious choice given OTL Burton was a Disney Animator and his darker tone would be better fit at Hyperion.

Actually what if Walt Jr had his own team similar to Disney's Nine Old Men?
George Lucas, Tim Burton, Steven Spielberg and Jim Henson. Walt Disney Jr's Four Young Men?

Four Young Men? I kinda like that, but it'll depend on where I take the TL later on.

My favorite thing has to be that people are dropping Acid while watching Alice in Wonderland.
It's probably a real pain for movie theaters to deal with those people who are high as a kite after the movie.

The only place where that has been an issue has been, not surprisingly, in San Francisco.

For us looking back from the original TL, I'm liking some of the changes so far and will look forward as the decades go on, I do have one thing ask regarding one unmade film that might be possible if you're interested.

However, one question is what are the differences with this version of Alice (not including the animation style) from OTL version such as story, characters etc.?

I could help you with a cast list for Hansel and Gretel if you give me a list of the characters that would be included in the film. Looking forward to see that happens next!

Alright. Let's hear about that unproduced film.

Differences in Alice in Wonderland (1969)
- The opening credits start with the live action shot of the storybook opening and turning its pages, reminiscent of previous Disney animated films.
- The live action sequence that follows the main titles is set in a contemporary [for 1969] time instead of the England of Lewis Carroll's day. It is pretty much a pseudo remake of a live action scene from one of Walt Sr.'s Alice Comedies. Alice (Olivia Hussey), on a tour of the Disney lot, watches in awe as an unnamed artist played by Walt Jr. draws a few "funny animal" characters on a sheet of animation paper. One of these characters is The White Rabbit (voiced by Danny Kaye), who jumps out of the animation paper and into the live action office. The White Rabbit then walks through a mirror with a curious Alice following him. Once Alice sticks an arm inside the glass of the mirror, she takes a few more steps and enters the rabbit hole. Once she is completely turned into an animated version of herself, Alice is then subject to the laws of cartoon physics.
- Unfortunately, this version of Alice is not immune to pantyshots. Thanks to a few knuckleheads on the staff, in some scenes, like for instance when Alice's dress becomes a parachute when she's still inside the rabbit hole, she is drawn wearing white, full cut, high waisted briefs that were modern for the Sixties instead of the bloomers from the OTL 1951 version.
- The mostly middle aged animation crew snuck most of the psychedelic imagery past Walt, Sr.
- Without Mary Blair's influence, the character designs are radically different. Instead of being a blonde, Alice is a brunette just like Hussey.
- The Mad Hatter still has his white hair and receding hairline, but his wardrobe consists of blues and purples rather than green from 1951.
- Even without Mary Blair, the color styling is closer to the OTL 1974 reissue poster.
- The King of Hearts is taller and only slightly less timid than OTL.
- The Walrus and Carpenter and Golden Afternoon sequences are the most "trippy" of the entire film.
- With the voice work by June Foray, the Queen of Hearts is even more over the top than Verna Felton in 1951.

Hansel and Gretel characters:
- Gunther/Father
- Olga/Stepmother
- Breadcrumb Birds: Toasty, Hardtack and Scuffler (These are carried over from the old American Magic thread; Scuffler is the leader)
- The Witch (Voiced by Geraldine Page in the old American Magic thread)

 

[QTXAdsy]

Alright. Let's hear about that unproduced film.

Differences in Alice in Wonderland (1969)
- The opening credits start with the live action shot of the storybook opening and turning its pages, reminiscent of previous Disney animated films.
- The live action sequence that follows the main titles is set in a contemporary [for 1969] time instead of the England of Lewis Carroll's day. It is pretty much a pseudo remake of a live action scene from one of Walt Sr.'s Alice Comedies. Alice (Olivia Hussey), on a tour of the Disney lot, watches in awe as an unnamed artist played by Walt Jr. draws a few "funny animal" characters on a sheet of animation paper. One of these characters is The White Rabbit (voiced by Danny Kaye), who jumps out of the animation paper and into the live action office. The White Rabbit then walks through a mirror with a curious Alice following him. Once Alice sticks an arm inside the glass of the mirror, she takes a few more steps and enters the rabbit hole. Once she is completely turned into an animated version of herself, Alice is then subject to the laws of cartoon physics.
- Unfortunately, this version of Alice is not immune to pantyshots. Thanks to a few knuckleheads on the staff, in some scenes, like for instance when Alice's dress becomes a parachute when she's still inside the rabbit hole, she is drawn wearing white, full cut, high waisted briefs that were modern for the Sixties instead of the bloomers from the OTL 1951 version.
- The mostly middle aged animation crew snuck most of the psychedelic imagery past Walt, Sr.
- Without Mary Blair's influence, the character designs are radically different. Instead of being a blonde, Alice is a brunette just like Hussey.
- The Mad Hatter still has his white hair and receding hairline, but his wardrobe consists of blues and purples rather than green from 1951.
- Even without Mary Blair, the color styling is closer to the OTL 1974 reissue poster.
- The King of Hearts is taller and only slightly less timid than OTL.
- The Walrus and Carpenter and Golden Afternoon sequences are the most "trippy" of the entire film.
- With the voice work by June Foray, the Queen of Hearts is even more over the top than Verna Felton in 1951.

Hansel and Gretel characters:
- Gunther/Father
- Olga/Stepmother
- Breadcrumb Birds: Toasty, Hardtack and Scuffler (These are carried over from the old American Magic thread; Scuffler is the leader)
- The Witch (Voiced by Geraldine Page in the old American Magic thread)

The unproduced film in question is this great 'what if' moment from Kaiju film history...Nessie!

When you put up the release of the 1954 Godzilla, I got thinking as maybe this could actually get made for a 1977-78 release and potentially have a interesting effect on British film industry as it might've saved Hammer Films as IIRC, this was a last ditch attempt to save themselves.

You can find more info on the film here, but in short it was a co-production from Hammer and Toho to be released by Columbia Pictures and seeing these two studios working on such a film a an alleged $7 million budget would have been truly something. All it was that stopped the film was due to Columbia Films' president was caught forging cheques and that ultimately caused the film to fall apart. Perhaps one minor butterfly is another studio other than Columbia distributing the film and thus avoiding such a scandal.

IIRC too, had the film been made, Toho had the rights to trademark Nessie to join the Toho gallery of monsters and yes, it did mean Nessie would face Godzilla in some form. Who knows, maybe if the film was a success perhaps Hammer could start their own kaiju film series? Fascinating thought that though as a Scot, quite a proud thought to have a Nessie film that wouldn't be one of those silly B-movies we got of Loch Ness over the years.

Moving on topic regarding Alice, quite a very different film and I like quite the sound of it, though I do wonder if in retrospect for animation historians might see the 'modern' setting of 1969 at the start (and ending if it's just a dream?) look a little bit dated? Also it seems that with an older Alice here that some forms of fanservice is at play here in the film such as the briefs shots in the rabbit hole scene, though how old is Alice here compared to the OTL 12 year old Alice? I get the feeling this version of Alice would be popular for, um, certain reasons...

Finally with your cast for Hansel and Gretel, I have these in mind to voice them.

Gene Hackman as Gunther/Farther
Maggie Blye as Olga/Stepmother
Bill Owen as Scuffler
Rikki Fulton as Toasty
Ian Lavender as Hardtuck

Haven't got anyone in mind for the witch unless you might have an idea, however I've added Scottish actor Rikki Fulton as I remember in the old American Magic TL how the birds were played by English actors (forget who though) that helped British humour find s footing thr states, maybe the same for Scottish humour with Fulton? Hope that all helps.

 

[OldNavy1988]

The unproduced film in question is this great 'what if' moment from Kaiju film history...Nessie!

When you put up the release of the 1954 Godzilla, I got thinking as maybe this could actually get made for a 1977-78 release and potentially have a interesting effect on British film industry as it might've saved Hammer Films as IIRC, this was a last ditch attempt to save themselves.

You can find more info on the film here, but in short it was a co-production from Hammer and Toho to be released by Columbia Pictures and seeing these two studios working on such a film a an alleged $7 million budget would have been truly something. All it was that stopped the film was due to Columbia Films' president was caught forging cheques and that ultimately caused the film to fall apart. Perhaps one minor butterfly is another studio other than Columbia distributing the film and thus avoiding such a scandal.

IIRC too, had the film been made, Toho had the rights to trademark Nessie to join the Toho gallery of monsters and yes, it did mean Nessie would face Godzilla in some form. Who knows, maybe if the film was a success perhaps Hammer could start their own kaiju film series? Fascinating thought that though as a Scot, quite a proud thought to have a Nessie film that wouldn't be one of those silly B-movies we got of Loch Ness over the years.

Moving on topic regarding Alice, quite a very different film and I like quite the sound of it, though I do wonder if in retrospect for animation historians might see the 'modern' setting of 1969 at the start (and ending if it's just a dream?) look a little bit dated? Also it seems that with an older Alice here that some forms of fanservice is at play here in the film such as the briefs shots in the rabbit hole scene, though how old is Alice here compared to the OTL 12 year old Alice? I get the feeling this version of Alice would be popular for, um, certain reasons...

Finally with your cast for Hansel and Gretel, I have these in mind to voice them.

Gene Hackman as Gunther/Farther
Maggie Blye as Olga/Stepmother
Bill Owen as Scuffler
Rikki Fulton as Toasty
Ian Lavender as Hardtuck

Haven't got anyone in mind for the witch unless you might have an idea, however I've added Scottish actor Rikki Fulton as I remember in the old American Magic TL how the birds were played by English actors (forget who though) that helped British humour find s footing thr states, maybe the same for Scottish humour with Fulton? Hope that all helps.

It sure as hell won't be Columbia distributing Nessie ITTL.

Since Walt Jr. has George Lucas in his corner, it'll likely be one of two studios:
- Universal, to make up for American Graffiti being made at Hyperion.
Or...
- 20th Century Fox since Star Wars is also likely to be made under Walt Jr.'s watch. It is possible that Walt Jr. might share producer credit with Gary Kurtz. Or...it is possible Junior might release the film under his father's label.

The ending is pretty much live action Alice waking herself up on a bench next to the Mickey Avenue/Dopey Drive sign. A reprise of the Alice in Wonderland theme is sung by a chorus while Junior walks her to a limousine waiting to take her home.

I am not sure how old Kathryn Beaumont was when she recorded her lines for the '51 version, but Olivia Hussey was already 18 by the time TTL's Disney Alice came out. Hussey would've recorded her lines around '66 or '67ish depending on how long it took to make feature cartoons at the time. Alice is in her late teens in the movie.

I'm sure there were plenty who bought tickets for the fanservice, like a certain flamboyant DJ shielded by the BBC, or a 14 year old in Ontario, Canada who would grow up to achieve great infamy. Besides the rabbit hole scene, there was still the flowers lifting up Alice's dress right after the Golden Afternoon song, and a few instances when she's trying to evade the card soldiers.

In the original American Magic, I had Tim Brooke-Taylor and Wally Boag as two of the Breadcrumb Birds.

 

[QTXAdsy]

I'm sure there were plenty who bought tickets for the fanservice, like a certain flamboyant DJ shielded by the BBC, or a 14 year old in Ontario, Canada who would grow up to achieve great infamy.

Oh God, almost forgot about the certain villain who has yet to appear yet ITTL. Can imagine that this Alice might have gotten his interest for all the wrong reasons that we might find out years later...

Anyway for Nessie, probably put it with Universal and who knows what franchise it might spawn if successful, anyone with 'verses' monster opponents later on is welcomed.

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

I don't get the reference.

 

[HonestAbe1809]

Could we not have John K not monopolize the timeline as it seemed at times in the previous version? At points it seemed like the thread was less "What if Disney Lived Longer?" but "John K Sucks: The Timeline".

I don't get the reference.

They're talking about notorious Ren and Stimpy creator John Kricfalusi. The previous version of this timeline turned him into a huge monster before killing him off. And by the time the old timeline was done I was getting sick of all the references to John K that kept on popping up in the thread.

 

[TheFaultsofAlts]

Anyway for Nessie, probably put it with Universal and who knows what franchise it might spawn if successful, anyone with 'verses' monster opponents later on is welcomed.

I would also put it with Universal, for two reasons.

1: Nessie could be part of the Universal Monsters catalog. And, if Universal does go into theme parks like it would IOTL, having that particular monster in their arsenal could prompt them to include a parade based off of that franchise, with Nessie being a float, much like Elliott's role in the Main Street Electrical Parade.
2: 20th Century Fox could pool more money into the making of Alien, as well as any potential continuations of that movie.

 

[OldNavy1988]

Could we not have John K not monopolize the timeline as it seemed at times in the previous version? At points it seemed like the thread was less "What if Disney Lived Longer?" but "John K Sucks: The Timeline".

They're talking about notorious Ren and Stimpy creator John Kricfalusi. The previous version of this timeline turned him into a huge monster before killing him off. And by the time the old timeline was done I was getting sick of all the references to John K that kept on popping up in the thread.

I'll try to limit the amount of John K references as much as I can.

I would also put it with Universal, for two reasons.

1: Nessie could be part of the Universal Monsters catalog. And, if Universal does go into theme parks like it would IOTL, having that particular monster in their arsenal could prompt them to include a parade based off of that franchise, with Nessie being a float, much like Elliott's role in the Main Street Electrical Parade.
2: 20th Century Fox could pool more money into the making of Alien, as well as any potential continuations of that movie.

Universal it is.

@QTXAdsy Please remind me when Nessie was supposed to be released IOTL. Thanks.

 

[Light_Star 1]

Binged the threadmarks. Great Timeline!

Will Tim Burton be part of Hyperion Pictures? Seems like an obvious choice given OTL Burton was a Disney Animator and his darker tone would be better fit at Hyperion.

Actually what if Walt Jr had his own team similar to Disney's Nine Old Men?
George Lucas, Tim Burton, Steven Spielberg and Jim Henson. Walt Disney Jr's Four Young Men?

I would add Stan Lee & Don Bluth to that list. Could we get all 6 people working at Disney please? @OldNavy1988

 

[OldNavy1988]

Hansel and Gretel

Poster design later used for home video releases. IOTL, this was the cover of a Hansel and Gretel record album Disney put out prior to Walt's death. Please note, this artwork is heavily edited to remove text for TTL.

Released by Walt Disney, Sr. on December 3, 1971

Directed by
Wolfgang Reitherman

Music
George Bruns

Songs by
Robert B. Sherman
Richard M. Sherman

Story
Floyd Norman
Bill Peet
Ken Anderson
Larry Clemmons
Julius Svendsen
Vance Gerry
Ralph Wright
T. Hee

Voices
Danny Bonaduce as Hansel
Pamelyn Ferdin as Gretel
Geraldine Page as Olga/The Stepmother
Gene Hackman as Gunther/The Father
June Foray as The Witch
Sterling Holloway as The Sandman
Petula Clark as The Dew Fairy
Tim Brooke-Taylor as Scuffler
Rikki Fulton as Toasty
Wally Boag as Hardtack

Animators
Frank Thomas
Ollie Johnston
Milt Kahl
Xavier Atencio
Hal King
Eric Larson
John Lounsbery
Cliff Nordberg
Burny Mattinson
Don Bluth
Fred Hellmich
Walt Stanchfield
Eric Cleworth
Ted Berman
Dale Baer
Dave Michener
Whitey Larkin*

*Fictional animator

Layout
Don Griffith
Basil Davidovich
Sylvia Roemer

Backgrounds
Al Dempster
Bill Layne
Ralph Hulett

Hansel (Danny Bonaduce) and Gretel (Pamelyn Ferdin) are tricked by Olga, their wicked stepmother (Geraldine Page), into going deep into the woods in search of berries. Unbeknownst to the vile woman, Hansel had laid down a path of breadcrumbs so he and Gretel can find their way home. However, this path would be gobbled up by the Breadcrumb Birds, Toasty (Rikki Fulton), Hardtack (Wally Boag) and their leader, Scuffler (Tim Brooke-Taylor). The birds initially taunt and tease the pair, leaving them to wander absentmindedly until they come across a Gingerbread House. The kids help themselves to the goodies on the walls until they come face to face with the demented witch (June Foray). Once the Witch has Hansel and Gretel in a cauldron to make into a stew, she sings herself a maniacal song about how sugar, spice and everything nice make human flesh taste mighty nice. Realizing their mistake, the Breadcrumb Birds have a change of heart and break the kids out of the Gingerbread House. Before they can escape however, the kids shove the witch into the oven. Afterwards, Hansel and Gretel are happily reunited with their father Gunther (Gene Hackman). As for the stepmother, the Breadcrumb Birds pretty much chase her away.

Charles Solomon; Animation Historian (2006 interview for the 35th Anniversary Platinum Edition DVD)
"All of a sudden, every British comedian from Spike Milligan to the Monty Python guys began knocking on Disney's door."

Jerry Beck; Animation Historian (2006 interview for the 35th Anniversary Platinum Edition DVD)
"The amount of British humor in Hansel and Gretel came as a real shock to American moviegoers when Hansel and Gretel first came out. The Hitchcock spoof with the Breadcrumb Birds circling around the narcissistic stepmom was another moment in the film that had people scratching their heads."

Rikki Fulton (1980 BBC interview)
"As soon as I finished recording my dialogue for the Disney version of Hansel and Gretel, I knew one way or another my life was going to change. When that picture was released to the cinemas, and proved successful, a lot of doors started opening up in Hollywood for Tim and myself. Never again would I walk the streets of Glasgow without parents asking me to sign autographs for their wee bairns."​

 

[OldNavy1988]

Richard Nixon confirms he is running for a second term.
- The Washington Post

AVCO Embassy confirms a summer 1972 release for the English dub of Asterix and Cleopatra.
- The Hollywood Reporter

Universal in talks with Toho and Hammer for a possible strategic alliance.
- The New York Times

@Light_Star 1
The 12th and final franchise in the World Hockey Association is granted ahead of its 1972-73 debut. The alignment for the new league will consist of twelve teams in two divisions of six each.

Eastern Division
Minnesota Fighting Saints
New England Whalers
New York Islanders
Ottawa Senators
Philadelphia Blazers
Quebec Nordiques

Western Division
Calgary Broncos
Colorado Rockies
Edmonton Oilers
Houston Aeros
San Diego Gulls
Winnipeg Jets

- The Hockey News

 

[ian5786]

Excuse me is Robin Hood gonna be a female ITTL instead being a male Like IOTL and Maid Marian will probably be her sister

 

[QTXAdsy]

@QTXAdsy Please remind me when Nessie was supposed to be released IOTL. Thanks.

If all goes to planned as hope, the film was earmarked for a Spring 1977 release.

 

[OldNavy1988]

Excuse me is Robin Hood gonna be a female ITTL instead being a male Like IOTL and Maid Marian will probably be her sister

I'm afraid not.

 

[ian5786]

I'm afraid not.

all right he still is a male not a female

 

[QTXAdsy]

I would also put it with Universal, for two reasons.

1: Nessie could be part of the Universal Monsters catalog. And, if Universal does go into theme parks like it would IOTL, having that particular monster in their arsenal could prompt them to include a parade based off of that franchise, with Nessie being a float, much like Elliott's role in the Main Street Electrical Parade.
2: 20th Century Fox could pool more money into the making of Alien, as well as any potential continuations of that movie.

Forgot to add, having Nessie at Universal, as well as hopefully a successful film that Toho prove their worth with special effects ($7 million to play with will almost certainly blow all the efforts of the 70's Godzilla flicks for sure) and may make giant movie monsters less of a joke, mostly.

Anyway I'm almost certain if all goes to plan here that when it comes time to sell the rights to make a American made Godzilla film in the '90's that Universal, not Tri-Star, that Toho will certainly go with to make the film and a early MonsterVerse here?

Anyway that wouldn't be a bad thing for us in the UK as Tri-Star never gave us the Heisei or Millennium series for release here even to this day having to import Region 1 DVD's for our annoyance and it was only last year that we finally got the whole Showa series on Blu-ray here. Bottom line, it's not easy being a Kaiju fan here than in the States.

 

[Pyro]

The 12th and final franchise in the World Hockey Association is granted ahead of its 1972-73 debut. The alignment for the new league will consist of twelve teams in two divisions of six each.

Eastern Division
Minnesota Fighting Saints
New England Whalers
New York Islanders
Ottawa Senators
Philadelphia Blazers
Quebec Nordiques

Western Division
Calgary Broncos
Colorado Rockies
Edmonton Oilers
Houston Aeros
San Diego Gulls
Winnipeg Jets

- The Hockey News

Interesting to see the Islanders and Rockies join (though the latter franchise started in Kansas City as part of the NHL.) It will be interesting to see if the Broncos last long enough to establish a rivalry with the Oilers.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I think a good idea would be for next the Disney film to perform badly. Convincing Walt to direct his version of Beauty and the Beast, then pass the torch to Don Bluth. Don then contacts Andrew Lloyd Webber to create a new take on the Disney film.

 

[Goldwind2]

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