Apollo without the Moon

Even if the N1 worked it wasn't likely the Soviets would have used it to be 'second' to the Moon as the mission plan was quite obviously and well understood to be much lower quality than the American Apollo program. What they really needed (assuming they have the will to actually admit to still competing with the Americans*) was to be "second" to get the there but do it BETTER than the Americans. (While telling the world "We weren't "racing" the Americans, we were just planning on doing it RIGHT instead of first" :) )

Well the thing is the Soviets were actually working on a Lunar lander that was better than the Apollo mission, it was called the L3M and the 1972 variant of it would have accomplished the goal of being better than the Americans with bringing 3 men onto the moon and would've been able to stay on the moon for 90 days.

The moon lander would have an enlarged Soyuz descent capsule cocooned instead of leaving it in lunar orbit and 23 metric tons in total would be landed on the lunar surface.

Two N-1 rockets would be still needed to launch and land the L3M on the moon with one carrying the crewed lander and the other carrying the crasher stage Engine block that would needed to propel the L3M onto the lunar surface safely.

The L3M itself would travel back to earth and burn up with the descent capsule being hatched out of the cocoon and safely returning to earth.

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Cutaway view of the L3M-1972

The Soviets would've likely have buried and hidden the true reason of the L3 Lunar lander to the world and declare that they were totally not racing the Americans at all and were instead just working on a lunar lander that better than the Americans when the time came to publicly unveil the lander.

Lets say that using the Proton/R7/Soyuz/Salyut technology the Soviets put a modified Salyut/Almaz into orbit along with a 'transfer-stage' capable of getting it to Lunar orbit and back. Attach a couple of their Lunar landers and send it off to the Moon where they land only two men but they do so in two separate locations that Apollo never visited. Or better yet they make the landers capable of multiple trips and they land the two men several different places each and bring the whole thing back to Earth orbit implying they can do this as often as they want. How does the US respond?
This plan will likely never happen and probably would've been killed by the leadership if it was ever proposed to them.

If I were to think on a late 1970s/early 1980s response with the Space Shuttle the only thing that comes to mind is the Shuttle-C type proposal to bring Americans back to the moon as the Saturn rockets are well beyond saving by the 1970s. Unfortunately whatever response the Americans have is likely to get doomed by budget cuts from Congress by the time the Eastern bloc collapses and the USSR soon after kicks the bucket.

The Americans might just stick to the futuristic Space Shuttle as their main response to the old N-1 rocket in the end with maybe a working Shuttle-C rocket and a Space station in orbit by the time the Soviets fall in the early 1990s. But that's the best that they will probably achieve.
 
Satellites are cheap, especially if you use decommissioned ICBMs (viz. Orbital Vehicle).

Space stations are very expensive. The ISS is the most expensive single project ever produced by humanity. Manned Orbiting Laboratory never got off the ground. Skylab was only possible because we'd blown so much on Apollo hardware -- it was a program of leftovers.
It helps that military rockets can be easily converted (talking in reletive terms) to space vehicle use. So a lot of the money spent on boosters is saved.
But you also are locked into design compromises compelled by military requirements. Sometimes that can help, the Titan II SLV could carry more fuel than the basic Titan II, but other times it can be a problem.
Satellites are a lots easier to modify than space station parts.
 
Well the thing is the Soviets were actually working on a Lunar lander that was better than the Apollo mission, it was called the L3M and the 1972 variant of it would have accomplished the goal of being better than the Americans with bringing 3 men onto the moon and would've been able to stay on the moon for 90 days.

The moon lander would have an enlarged Soyuz descent capsule cocooned instead of leaving it in lunar orbit and 23 metric tons in total would be landed on the lunar surface.

Two N-1 rockets would be still needed to launch and land the L3M on the moon with one carrying the crewed lander and the other carrying the crasher stage Engine block that would needed to propel the L3M onto the lunar surface safely.

The L3M itself would travel back to earth and burn up with the descent capsule being hatched out of the cocoon and safely returning to earth.

View attachment 763781
Cutaway view of the L3M-1972

I'd be really wary of that set up due to knowing that thrusters are going to 'leak' and such but it's quite a design :)

The Soviets would've likely have buried and hidden the true reason of the L3 Lunar lander to the world and declare that they were totally not racing the Americans at all and were instead just working on a lunar lander that better than the Americans when the time came to publicly unveil the lander. This plan will likely never happen and probably would've been killed by the leadership if it was ever proposed to them.

The leadership of course is the issue because there's no real 'incentive' for them to do this... But if there WAS a good reason then doing so would the onus is then on the Americans to react and while it might be tough 'justify' in the 70s, specifically since they are 'between launchers' at the moment but I suspect they will want to do 'something' and soon.

If I were to think on a late 1970s/early 1980s response with the Space Shuttle the only thing that comes to mind is the Shuttle-C type proposal to bring Americans back to the moon as the Saturn rockets are well beyond saving by the 1970s. Unfortunately whatever response the Americans have is likely to get doomed by budget cuts from Congress by the time the Eastern bloc collapses and the USSR soon after kicks the bucket.

"It depends" since the late 70s is the Reagan era and the resurgence of a "need" to directly compete (and 'beat') the Soviets. We'd likely get at least a surge of NASA funding though it will likely be more 'military' oriented. NASA did after all had a Shuttle based Lunar base plan at the time.

The Americans might just stick to the futuristic Space Shuttle as their main response to the old N-1 rocket in the end with maybe a working Shuttle-C rocket and a Space station in orbit by the time the Soviets fall in the early 1990s. But that's the best that they will probably achieve.

Actually I suspect that we'd stand pat on orbital operations and if the Soviets are on the Moon we'll follow them just to stay relevant and likely do essentially a Shuttle/Shuttle-C based "Apollo" type program where we go directly to the Moon each flight. Again pretty much similar to the proposed "First Lunar Outpost" plan.

Randy
 
It helps that military rockets can be easily converted (talking in relative terms) to space vehicle use. So a lot of the money spent on boosters is saved.
But you also are locked into design compromises compelled by military requirements. Sometimes that can help, the Titan II SLV could carry more fuel than the basic Titan II, but other times it can be a problem.
Satellites are a lots easier to modify than space station parts.

One of my sets of notes on timelines I'll likely never write, is one where the original Atlas (the five engine behemoth) is brought into use (if not service) and we've got that kind of throw-weight to work with instead of the OTL Atlas where we had wait to get the Titan to have the same payload.

Another, (as I mentioned above) is having the Air Force get serious and move forward with the "Space Launching System" (SLS 1960) instead of the Titan which would have a very wide application and might still be in use today.

Randy
 
Actually I suspect that we'd stand pat on orbital operations and if the Soviets are on the Moon we'll follow them just to stay relevant and likely do essentially a Shuttle/Shuttle-C based "Apollo" type program where we go directly to the Moon each flight. Again pretty much similar to the proposed "First Lunar Outpost" plan.

Randy
Quite a lot different, really, any Shuttle-C-based plan is necessarily going to be based on Earth orbital rendezvous and assembly of a lunar spacecraft (it just doesn't have the throw weight to do a single-shot mission) whereas First Lunar Outpost was built around building a gigantic new heavy life vehicle and then doing one-shot direct ascent missions. Nova 1990-style, basically. If NASA is being asked to do lunar missions in the late 1970s or early 1980s, it's more likely to fall back on a plan like the ones it developed at that time IOTL, which would be basically an EOR-LOR architecture built around an aerobraking space tug serviced at a LEO space station.
 
I'd be really wary of that set up due to knowing that thrusters are going to 'leak' and such but it's quite a design :)
Well I'm not aware of any potential thruster issues and I can't recall what incident your referring to, aborting the lunar mission and returning to Earth should be relatively speaking "easy" enough to do...

The leadership of course is the issue because there's no real 'incentive' for them to do this... But if there WAS a good reason then doing so would the onus is then on the Americans to react and while it might be tough 'justify' in the 70s, specifically since they are 'between launchers' at the moment but I suspect they will want to do 'something' and soon.
Well the leadership may be an complete mess of disinterest and Military influenced programs with plenty of infighting and backstabbing but at least the Lunar Program will still always be supported by the Academy of Sciences no matter what happens in the 1970s, The Military will be interested in the massive Space Stations (MKBS) that the rocket could launch into low Earth orbit which will certainly help to keep the N1 rocket alive in the Brezhnev era and forced the US to respond with their own Space station.

Speaking of the leadership they are likely to get terrified from the American Space Shuttle, so a mountain of workers and resources will be throw into the Space Program to build the ATL Buran Shuttle, which will logically be launched on top of the N1 Rocket, even if their are some complains from the Leadership wanting to copy the American Space Shuttle its likely that a MTKVP design type Soviet Space Shuttle will be built instead of OTL Buran.

The ATL Buran will unfortunately delay the L3M missions for a few years but will ultimately pay off in the 1980s with a Space Shuttle that is more impressive than the one in OTL and ultimately cheaper without bankrupting the USSR with developing the costly Energia Rocket, although launching the entire DLB Lunar base won't be cheap...

"It depends" since the late 70s is the Reagan era and the resurgence of a "need" to directly compete (and 'beat') the Soviets. We'd likely get at least a surge of NASA funding though it will likely be more 'military' oriented. NASA did after all had a Shuttle based Lunar base plan at the time.
President Reagan is likely to focus on defeating the Soviets on planet Earth and not on the moon, so NASA will likely not suddenly be given a surge between the Carter and Reagan years at all. At best they will be given a budget increase to make the Shuttle safer after a inevitable disaster happens and along with money required to build the Shuttle-C and Space station, but that will overall slow down the entire Shuttle program by months, the end of the Cold War will worsen the situation for NASA and likely lead to Congress slowly draining the surge, with underfunding and cost overruns to become far more prevalent over the decades, the possibility of poor decisions eventually being made with ocassional Congressional interference and ultimately outright program cancellations will occur sooner or later until private Space flight takes off in the 21st century.

Actually I suspect that we'd stand pat on orbital operations and if the Soviets are on the Moon we'll follow them just to stay relevant and likely do essentially a Shuttle/Shuttle-C based "Apollo" type program where we go directly to the Moon each flight. Again pretty much similar to the proposed "First Lunar Outpost" plan.

Randy
Yeah um, Workable Goblin already explained why it would not work. With the Space station and the orbital transfer vehicle missing.
 
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Well I'm not aware of any potential thruster issues and I can't recall what incident your referring to, aborting the lunar mission and returning to Earth should be relatively speaking "easy" enough to do...

I'd assume a lot of secondary cocooning with some sort of boundary between the capsule and the interior because the hypergolic propellants for the RCS will leak slightly no matter how 'sealed' they are and in a 'contained' area they will build up.
Well the leadership may be an complete mess of disinterest and Military influenced programs with plenty of infighting and backstabbing but at least the Lunar Program will still always be supported by the Academy of Sciences no matter what happens in the 1970s, The Military will be interested in the massive Space Stations (MKBS) that the rocket could launch into low Earth orbit which will certainly help to keep the N1 rocket alive in the Brezhnev era and forced the US to respond with their own Space station.

And there's the problem because it's an "either/or" situation since they can have a "Big Space Station" OR they can "Go To The Moon" they can't do both.

Speaking of the leadership they are likely to get terrified from the American Space Shuttle, so a mountain of workers and resources will be throw into the Space Program to build the ATL Buran Shuttle, which will logically be launched on top of the N1 Rocket, even if their are some complains from the Leadership wanting to copy the American Space Shuttle its likely that a MTKVP design type Soviet Space Shuttle will be built instead of OTL Buran.

They might but that would depend on background factors because "if" the Soviets have a "heavy rocket" then there is incentive for the US to keep a "heavy rocket" of some type which itself feeds into the design of TTL's "Shuttle" which might therefore be very different from OTL Shuttle. (All things being equal there might NOT be enough incentive but a "Saturn Shuttle" could well be in the cards which will have different effects on the Soviet leadership)

The ATL Buran will unfortunately delay the L3M missions for a few years but will ultimately pay off in the 1980s with a Space Shuttle that is more impressive than the one in OTL and ultimately cheaper without bankrupting the USSR with developing the costly Energia Rocket, although launching the entire DLB Lunar base won't be cheap...

By the mid-80s the Soviet economy is going to still be in trouble and if they haven't gone to the Moon before that they won't be going no matter how 'cheap' TTL's "Buran" is.

President Reagan is likely to focus on defeating the Soviets on planet Earth and not on the moon, so NASA will likely not suddenly be given a surge between the Carter and Reagan years at all. At best they will be given a budget increase to make the Shuttle safer after a inevitable disaster happens and along with money required to build the Shuttle-C and Space station, but that will overall slow down the entire Shuttle program by months, the end of the Cold War will worsen the situation for NASA and likely lead to Congress slowly draining the surge, with underfunding and cost overruns to become far more prevalent over the decades, the possibility of poor decisions eventually being made with occasional Congressional interference and ultimately outright program cancellations will occur sooner or later until private Space flight takes off in the 21st century.

If the Soviets are going to the Moon then Reagan has to respond, now how willing Congress is to support that it an open question (without some significant butterflies likely not but again having the Soviets actually GO to the Moon is a major butterfly, Congress was after all willing to support a competing Space Station to match the Soviets... Just not Freedom and what NASA really wanted :) ) but there has to be a response given the rhetorical and confrontational nature of the Reagan administration.

Yes very much Reagan was out to 'defeat' the Soviets on Earth but them going to the Moon is a direct challenge to American 'supremacy' in space which effects things on Earth as we well know and at a time where appearing 'weak' anywhere was a 'win' for the Soviets. Congress can balk but given the Moon was seen by one and all as an "American Triumph" challenging that if going to have outsized effects on the American psyche, especially if it happens while we're 'between' Apollo and what comes next. That's going to very much feed into American insecurities that developed in the mid-to-late 70s and propelled Reagan into the White House in the first place.

If the Soviets go with the original LK plan and land a couple of Cosmonauts a couple of places and bring back some small samples that's not going to be thought of much. But again if they appear to do it "better" than the US that's a direct challenge and danger to our legacy which will not stand.

Yeah um, Workable Goblin already explained why it would not work. With the Space station and the orbital transfer vehicle missing.

No I took it as him noting how my assertation that the "plans" would not be 'similar' as I suggested since those plans included other aspects to overcome the shortcomings in the systems. But you could still do it with orbital rendezvous and no space station, (I was actually thinking "Early Lunar Access" concept not FLO) if we had to and we'd have to since we had no space station at the time the Shuttle first flew. (And again it would be an either or decision for the US as well as public and political will would only likely support one of the other IF there was enough incentive to try and 'math' the Soviets)

If the Soviets don't go to the Moon then the US will still see itself (as will most of the world) as the premier Space power so as per OTL we won't likely change much in our response to the Soviets having the N1. We might pursue the Shuttle-C to get a higher payload to orbit than the Shuttle alone but then again, like OTL we may not do much of anything until the late 80s. If the Soviets do and do so in a manner that seems to threaten the US legacy then there will have to be a response.

Randy
 
Override Von Braun, (or convince him to take some risks, that happened later in the Saturn V testing so it can be done) and Sheppard flies first. Sure it's "only" suborbital but it IS a significant first and the US doesn't have another "Sputnik" moment like they did OTL.
his testing for the V
 
Override Von Braun, (or convince him to take some risks, that happened later in the Saturn V testing so it can be done) and Sheppard flies first. Sure it's "only" suborbital but it IS a significant first and the US doesn't have another "Sputnik" moment like they did OTL.
his testing for the V

Von Braun's "plan" was to test each stage successively as he did with the Saturn 1 but that was found to take too long so a decision was made to test the Saturn V as an "all-up" (all stages, at one time) vehicle instead of incremental test flights. As I noted in the original post he actually went against his usual style of gaining consensus and required another test flight before they sent up Sheppard. Had he been overridden then Sheppard would have been the first man in space, something that would have taken some pressure off of Kennedy which in OTL lead to the Lunar goal.

Randy
 
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