Anno Obumbratio: A 16th Century Alternate History
- Thread starter DrakeRlugia
- Start date
I swear to God, if you kill Mary in childbirth or something… EDIT: I am livid
This time it is sure that Denmark’s line will rule over England <3
William and Jane making their way up the ladder!
Excellent work wringing cash out of that micer
So pretty! It reminds me of Glücksburg Castle
Palace of Saint Sylvester, 19th c. Watercolor; AI Generated.
Well well, if it isn’t the consequences of your own actions…
Poor Mary. Love will unfortunately leave you vulnerable to betrayal
Two bros, chilling in the forest
Not sure that I buy him saying that. The Scots have fought against that idea for 200+ years
Nice! Another child for them! Hopefully a girl this time. Too many sons are risky too
NO! NO NO NO NO NO! I didn’t want John to die either! God, no! God fricking damnit!John, having taken a position upon the edges of the fortress to attack the upcoming rebels, was wounded deeply in his stomach with a terrible shot of a gunslinger. The troops did not take time to rush the young king into the recovery wing. “There was no doubt,” one poet in Akerhaus wrote with a fragile hand. “Ghosts at Thérouanne had come to reclaim another soul.”
Your Majesty,
King John's Forgiveness VS. King John Fades, 19th Century Paintings that deal with John II's death; AI Generated.
I write to you with the most incredible sadness regarding these terrible events at Akerhaus… though your husband has held valiantly against the forces that sought to depose me, it has come at a most terrible cost. I have no doubts that this letter will reach you in the strangest of energies, but I beg that you look upon each word given to you carefully. I must admit to you and realize fully that your husband, our prince, is no longer there. He has perished in this great assault, seeking victory and absolution amongst the enemies of Christ. This news will reach deep into your soul and shock you most heavily…. I can only hope that your servants and ladies will provide the aid your mother sought during her struggles. Remember, as your mother did, that your lord husband’s death was not in vain—he fought against the heretics until his final breath. He died as a man, warrior, and knight—as a man ought to. He shall be remembered for his pursuits, and as his father-in-law… his golden youth shall forever be preserved. Our Lord shall provide comfort—as always. Let the young king’s memory and true faith nourish you—as it nourished your mother.
We pray most fervently for you and your child.
I remain your devoted father and ally.
CHRISTIAN II, REX DANIAE NORVEGIAE ET SUECIAE.
Edit: I hope that Mary and Christian rain such a fury down on the Norwegian rebels that William the Conqueror’s harrowing of the North seems like child’s play in kindergarten. They killed my boy
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Join me in mourning for our boy, my friend. Some things united even the swedes and the danes at trying times. *offers tea and biscuits*
Are we having our Legolas and Gimli moment now? Also, I don’t think tea will do it. I’m getting the snaps
I think we are. And I understand if you need something stronger. I'm sticking to tea.
I know! Poor Mary being left pregnant while her husband dies fighting overseas like her mother. But on the other hand she is a reigning sovereign in her own right and her son is six-seven now, so she is gonna have it easier. On the other hand, she need to make sure her sons inherit Denmark as well...
To quote the group of bards known as ABBA: “The history book on its shelf, is always repeating itself” 🥲 Poor Mary will deffo understand her mother now. As for Denmark-Norway, it shouldn’t be too difficult. They’ve neutered the Frederickan branch, so John’s sons are really the only candidates out there who can succeed Christian. She probably will have to ship Charles away to Denmark soon tho. Also, we’ll get a King Karl of Denmark now… Eww
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The minute John was mentioned in the chapter I had a feeling- widowed Mary may find sole rule less attractive than she might have thought during their arguments.
I wonder what the actual dispute in Norway was about- which articles of the Handfaestning of Oslo was Christian trying to overrule? Will Mary choose to dedicate a full on campaign to the memory of her warlike husband, or will she see it as a foolish cause that already cost her more than she had ever thought to lose?
The danish succession is threatened as well- it would have been a lot more acceptable for danish nobles to be ruled by a king born in Denmark, even if he ruled from England and had been raised in exile than to be ruled by that guys son who really had nothing to do with their country. Could Henry be sent for a few years to Denmark? Would surrounding him or the other princes by danish tutors help?
If the Danes look for someone else- support could maybe coalesce around Christina’s sons, who were raised in Denmark and have no foreign connections considering they were displaced from their Bavarian inheritance. Then again if we’re accepting the female line, perhaps Dorothea’s marriage to Otto gives the Pomeranians a claim.
I wonder what the actual dispute in Norway was about- which articles of the Handfaestning of Oslo was Christian trying to overrule? Will Mary choose to dedicate a full on campaign to the memory of her warlike husband, or will she see it as a foolish cause that already cost her more than she had ever thought to lose?
The danish succession is threatened as well- it would have been a lot more acceptable for danish nobles to be ruled by a king born in Denmark, even if he ruled from England and had been raised in exile than to be ruled by that guys son who really had nothing to do with their country. Could Henry be sent for a few years to Denmark? Would surrounding him or the other princes by danish tutors help?
If the Danes look for someone else- support could maybe coalesce around Christina’s sons, who were raised in Denmark and have no foreign connections considering they were displaced from their Bavarian inheritance. Then again if we’re accepting the female line, perhaps Dorothea’s marriage to Otto gives the Pomeranians a claim.
My worries is that that Bille hussy will be carrying the late king's child and that if she has a son, that Danish born child will have the support of her family and the rest of the Danish nobles. Danish blackfyres!
Hmmmm, I don’t think the Danish estates will try that. This isn’t the age of Svend Estridsen anymore hahah. Also, they wouldn’t risk the wrath of England
I've been pondering over the fact that many Scottish kings historically had relatively short reigns. I wonder if it would be possible to imagine an alternate history where Alexander becomes the longest-reigning monarch in Scottish history. It would be fascinating to explore how his extended reign could have shaped Scotland and its relationship with England. Additionally, I'm now even more excited to see how you will create and transform 16th century Europe in this alternate history. How might the changes in Scotland's monarchy influence the political, cultural, and economic landscape of Europe during that time?"
Sorry for the length of this question, but if it's not too much to ask, I've been curious about an alternate history where Scotland and England remain separate. Most of the histories I've read always depict them as united. Would it be possible to explore a different scenario? I would greatly appreciate it. Additionally, I would love to see a focus on the Scottish section of the story. For example, if Charlotte and Alexander had more children instead of the two that passed away, it would be wonderful, as the Scottish royalty could benefit from an expanded lineage. I'm particularly interested in how this altered family dynamic might shape the course of Scottish history, both politically and culturally. Your insights into this would be truly invaluable.
Sorry for the length of this question, but if it's not too much to ask, I've been curious about an alternate history where Scotland and England remain separate. Most of the histories I've read always depict them as united. Would it be possible to explore a different scenario? I would greatly appreciate it. Additionally, I would love to see a focus on the Scottish section of the story. For example, if Charlotte and Alexander had more children instead of the two that passed away, it would be wonderful, as the Scottish royalty could benefit from an expanded lineage. I'm particularly interested in how this altered family dynamic might shape the course of Scottish history, both politically and culturally. Your insights into this would be truly invaluable.
Counterproposal: Kill him in a really funny way. We have to maintain the Stewart habit of dying relatively young in various stupid ways.
He chokes on something during his daughter's wedding to the Prince of Wales. Long live the Second North Sea Empire!
Thank you so much Mickey!! It's been in the planning stages for many many months, so to bring it to fruition was excellent.
A very unfortunate end for our hero king. He should've just stayed home!
Yep!
These sorts of florid speeches are not uncommon at such diplomatic meetings. The Scots are already in the English line of succession, so it's fair for the English to enter the Scottish one. At any rate, it's just that: a speech. Alexander and Charlotte are still young and hope for more children, and a son to boot. Both Henry and Anne are still young, and much can happen between now and their (eventual) marriage.
All I will say is much like her marriage plans with the Dauphin, this betrothal is subject to change and may change.
It's a girl. She'll be named Joan in honor of her father.
Mary doesn't exactly have the finances to furnish another expedition. John was literally clipping coins to fund his last expedition in Germany. I cannot see Parliament offering her an open hand. In her mind, it's Christian's job to deal with. It's his nonsense that John's continual cleaning up of his messes that got John killed.
I wouldn't exactly called the line neutered. Christian III is dead, but three of Frederick's spawn are still alive: John (b. 1521) who was fostered in Prussia and remains there. Adolf (b. 1526) is in exile in Hesse. Both have spent their lives in exile, and they're Lutheran. Frederick, the youngest is the only one still in Denmark, but he's being educated for a Catholic clerical career.
Christian's daughters with their sons also say hi. 👋
Mary does not send Charles to Denmark.
Perhaps, but their co-reign has proven difficult in some aspects: it functions when they are in agreement, it is down right a disaster when they are not...it is better that sovereign be one person, not two. Mary also has reigned solo before: the brief period before her marriage, and she several times during her marriage when John has been abroad (which has been often). I've not calculated it, but with John's frequent absences she's likely reigned more solo than she did with him.
The Handfaestning granted Norway a great deal of autonomy, perhaps more than it's ever hand while under Danish rule. It's no surprise that Christian II has tried to buck these odious restrictions. The next Danish chapter will cover the conflict in more detail.
As for Mary sending an expedition to Norway: it's been brought up before, but there's little reason for her to do so beyond emotionally. Plus, with what money? John hasn't exactly been frugal with the English treasury, and I'd argue him essentially debasing the coinage to raise a campaign chest point to English exhaustion to funding his excursions abroad. Plus, naval expansion and militia reforms... while good ideas, they need to be paid for, and with his death, Mary is left with the bill. The debasement will also have greater repercussions considering no one knows about the debasement except a few members of his household, and the architect of it is now dead, and never revoked the decree. Of course those coins are being stored in the jewel house, but if they keep being made, there's going to come a time where they will need to enter circulation.
I don't see Mary looking to Parliament for a subsidy to send more English troops to bleed in Norway. She sees it as Christian's problem to deal with, as he is the one who got her husband and his son and heir killed.
Mary is not sending Henry to Denmark, nor any of her sons for that matter. None of them will have any Danish tutors, either. They are English princes first, and grow up culturally and linguistically as English princes. Use that information as you will.
You make a very interesting point re: Christina and Dorothea.
You may breathe a sigh of relief: Bille is not carrying the king's child, nor did she ever give him any illegitimate children. No Danish Blackfyres here.
I haven't yet decided when Alexander dies, but at 34 he's already older than his OTL counterpart when he died, James V. The first two Stewart kings lived for rather long times (Robert II died at 74, Robert III at 68-69). Of the 15-16th century Stuarts, 40-42 seems to be their usual tap out point. Alexander does live longer than that, though it's possible his successor might still have a regency. Unsure yet.
Someone asked this question previously, but I'll gladly answer it again: Scotland and England do not unify through Anne and Henry's marriage. I'm unsure if they will unify, but if they do it's likely outside the scope of the TL. I do not plan for them to unify during the timeline's time period, which covers Mary's life.
There's a few Scottish chapters already if you'd like to go back and read them, but I think the most recent was Chapter 26, and Chapter 36 includes a decent portion on Scottish events as well (primarily military, but there are a few peeks at the court). I do plan on going back to them, but England and Mary are the TL's main focus.
Alexander and Charlotte do have more children though, yes! I just cannot say how many, if they survive, and the genders - yet.
I will add it into the suggestion pile. 😂
Damn, I was hoping that Scotland would be added to the Oldenburg family pact
😭
It just seems very Tudor to start an invasion to avenge your dead spouse. But you’re right. The English warchest isn’t exactly stocked with gold
Oh God, so we might be heading towards a War of the Danish succession?
It seems very foolish that Mary and John haven’t trained at least one son for a future as king of Denmark-Norway. That certainly won’t be in their favour when they claim the throne…
Given how many times the story mentioned that John was great with military matters and that he was the son Henry never had, especially as Henry died in France chasing something fruitless, I probably should have seen this coming.
My poor heart is bursting. 😭
This was the exact opposite that the Lords of England wanted him to marry Mary. That he would stay in England and not draw the kingdom into some unnecessary wars and to not let Mary reign alone like a woman. Bet they are regretting that pretty hard now!
Looks like the English-Danish union is over at this point. And given that Henry VIII died fighting for the lands in France and left a unborn child to inherit the crown and that led to over a decade of regencies and that disaster where English men died for the goals of the emperor and then the treasury got drained to fight enemies in Denmark-Norway and their other beloved king died for that. I can honestly see England refusing to get involved in foreign affairs after this. I hope Mary tells Denmark to eat her ass if they come knocking again for her help.
Oh crispy fried jesus on a barbecue stick, thank you for not doing that storyline. I think I might have screamed otherwise.
Noooo! You coward!
As you should!
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Christian was always his own worst enemy, glad to know that never changed.
As she should. You know, for all of our cheering on the Second North Sea Empire, this actually shows how it would realistically be and that in the long run it would not last. So kudos to you @DrakeRlugia for this work of art.
*goes off to cry for my boy John, rip you absolute icon.*
Yep! It's gonna be a cluster.
It definitely is foolish, but at the same end, John was still very young when he died... only thirty-one. And their sons are all very young, Henry has only just formally been breached, while the others are young babes.
I think both of them expected to have a lot more time, both with one another, and that John would've eventually became King of Denmark and Norway. If John had not died, he would've absolutely taken Charles to Denmark to be reared at his grandfather's court, or possibly even tried to have Henry acclaimed as his heir. With his death, that is unlikely. Some might see it as bizarre for Mary to turn away from Denmark and possibly give up a crown for one of her younger sons, but I'd say it's a human / emotional reaction, not a political one. Relations with Christian II will be a lot harder, since Mary will no doubt blame him for John's death. She has no interest in sending one of her boys into the Danish meatgrinder: her paranoid side will say that she'll simply be sentencing them to death when they're eventually leading armies for their grandfather like John did.
Rather a son be Duke of York or Somerset and live to happy old age, than be King of Denmark for a day and die in battle.
There has been some foreshadowing towards it (especially in last chapter, with his near miss). Still, given that Henry VIII had died a violently death, I think many thought John would be fine.
Yep. He was the son of a deposed king brought to England to be their king. Then he went and helped restore his father and it deteriorated from there. John II spent quite a bit of time abroad... I've not calculated it, but I do believe he spent more time abroad than he did in England. His histography would be quite interesting, he'll be remembered for his military prowess, but some English historians might remember in similar light to Richard I: the man who became king and was never there and essentially bankrupted the kingdom on his wars and expeditions.
As for the council and Mary's position... Now they really have no choice but to accept her as sole sovereign: Mary is thirty-six and has three sons. While she could remarry, she doesn't need too. It would be her choice. They're gonna have to get used to her being in charge completely!
This was also Catherine's dream. She always wanted her daughter to reign alone. Fortunately she didn't have to live to see how it came about, but her prayers have been answered...
You are correct. Denmark is going to have some... interesting times soon, but there is no personal union with England. Christian II and Mary do not have a good relationship going forward. At all. Without John as a middleman, things deteriorate drastically. Mary has nothing left to give for Denmark-Norway: Christian's problems are his problems. John had an obligation to assist, she does not.
Oh no, I promise I treat my characters badly too. 😂 It just depends when the bad things happen. Sometimes it's right away, sometimes it's way down the line. Everyone loses at some point!
You are probably the most spot on.
While all your guys' cheering was very fun to read (even as I planned something else), I wanted to show the reality of such unions based around a single person. Just in real life history, sudden deaths could throw a spanner into any well laid out plan. John's death and Mary's ambivalence has basically doomed the idea of a union between England and Denmark-Norway into the dustbin of history. England likely breathes a sigh of relief.