This definitely has me intrigued. I'm hoping we get an explanation as to how TTL's Christianity, (which, if I'm reading this correctly, is Nazarene Judaism) developed without the Crucifixion, and therefore I'm assuming without the resurrection. How are Nazarene's maintaining that Jesus was the Messiah without fulfilling either the OTL Jewish expectations, nor the OTL Christian explanation?

With a PoD of Jesus not being crucified, I'm assuming the author is taking the Gibbonesque position that Christianity is responsible for the fall of Rome?
 
Christianity is monogamous because monogamy was a Roman idea, not the other way around.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_ancient_Rome?wprov=sfla1


Uhhhh... going to have to interject here. Jesus in Matthew 19:5 spoke of a man and his wife becoming “one flesh” that nothing can tear apart. And Saint Paul in 1 Timothy 3:2 said a bishop should only have one wife.

There is nothing in scripture explicitly barring polygamy, but it appears that monogamy was preferred even early on.

Granted, in this world where much of Christian teaching is different, I would expect this to differ as well.


EDIT: After rereading what you were referencing once more, I see that you are in the right referring to Roman monogamy and the author misspoke. Rather, I think he was trying to refer to good old Judeo-Christian prohibitions on adultery, which prohibit sleeping with anyone not married to.

It is unsurprising that Christianity would be monogamous, because it began as a movement among Romanized Jews and ended up as a Romanization of Judaism that non-Jewish Romans adopted.

Citing to Christian scripture doesn't cut against that claim.

The author was speaking about the Emperor's harem, and so could not have been referring to adultery as far as I can tell

You are both correct. Yes, I did misspeak on monogamy. I meant the modern concept of monogamy and not the Roman concept of monogamy where a man was allowed to take concubines as long as it did not disrupt the familial structure of his family.

This definitely has me intrigued. I'm hoping we get an explanation as to how TTL's Christianity, (which, if I'm reading this correctly, is Nazarene Judaism) developed without the Crucifixion, and therefore I'm assuming without the resurrection. How are Nazarene's maintaining that Jesus was the Messiah without fulfilling either the OTL Jewish expectations, nor the OTL Christian explanation?

With a PoD of Jesus not being crucified, I'm assuming the author is taking the Gibbonesque position that Christianity is responsible for the fall of Rome?

The main difference between OTL Christianity and ITTL Nazarene Judaism is the Divinity of Christ. Except for some splinter sects, most Nazarenes reject Jesus' divinity and instead acknowledge him as a kind of Prophet-Messiah. I'm not really a believer in Gibbon's theory while I do believe that Christianity's rise contributed to the upheaval in the Empire I do not think it the main reason for the West's fall. Also if you (the readers) haven't figured it out yet the Western Emperor's Nomen may give a clue to the identity of the " Saviour of Rome ".
 
You are both correct. Yes, I did misspeak on monogamy. I meant the modern concept of monogamy and not the Roman concept of monogamy where a man was allowed to take concubines as long as it did not disrupt the familial structure of his family.
Neat. Thank you for clarifying.

The main difference between OTL Christianity and ITTL Nazarene Judaism is the Divinity of Christ. Except for some splinter sects, most Nazarenes reject Jesus' divinity and instead acknowledge him as a kind of Prophet-Messiah. I'm not really a believer in Gibbon's theory while I do believe that Christianity's rise contributed to the upheaval in the Empire I do not think it the main reason for the West's fall. Also if you (the readers) haven't figured it out yet the Western Emperor's Nomen may give a clue to the identity of the " Saviour of Rome ".
Flavius Armatus Achilli III
???
 
Wait wait, the Prophet was killed by Umar in that night, pre-Hijra?
...
Well, at least we have strict monotheist Nazarenes in this timeline, such an interesting thought exercise.
 
Neat. Thank you for clarifying.



???

Perhaps the Flavian dynasty began by Vespasian?

(This would be a good idea- get him in power a decade prior to OTL and he can pull off a lot of reforms that he never got a chance to due to declining health)

Nah. Its Flavius Armatus the Eastern Roman General that pranced around Rome proclaiming himself the new "Achilles" to the Romans who believed themselves to be descendants of the Trojans

Wait wait, the Prophet was killed by Umar in that night, pre-Hijra?
...
Well, at least we have strict monotheist Nazarenes in this timeline, such an interesting thought exercise.

He wasn't killed on the Night (By night I assume your thinking of the night were the Quraysh tried to murder him before he could flee Mecca) but a year or two earlier.The Nazarenes are fun to play around with and their not a rare breed in the Eastern Empire considering their Proselytizing fervour.But you certainly won't find a lot in Hispania for instance.
 
Map 134 A.M.D.
Drawing.jpeg

All Cities are written in the Aladin font
All other "writings" are written in Merriweather
Eastern Roman Offensive is written in this shade of purple
The Western Roman Empire's territories and the Text are shaded in this shade of red
The Barbarian Offensive is written in this shade of Orange

---

Authors Note: This is the Map for the Next Chapter. It will be a teaser to the contents of the next chapter.
 
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I'm disappointed. I was hoping for an update:teary:. Are you planning on continuing this TL?
I am continuing it but I've just started school again so I have abit of catching up to do. I intend to put out a chapter as soon as possible tho. Also thanks for reading the TL!
 
Chapter Three: The Great Crisis of the West Part I
A History of the Great Crisis of the West


The Western Empire which had once ruled in concert with its Eastern counterpart had begun to decline by the 3rd century before the Revelation[1]. As Rome’s patricians and ruling classes lazed away in summer palaces in Sicilia and the African provinces. The Emperors of Rome likewise revelled in decadence and the desires of the flesh leaving the work of ruling to their lessers. Romans who had enjoyed centuries of superiority over barbarians and the other lesser civilizations had grown lax. The streets of the Eternal City were said to be filled with every kind of vermin from the thieving rat to the whorish adulteress.

The Scourge of Rome’s [2] advance into the heart of the Empire was to be the final deathblow to the idea of Rome’s invicibility. Rome which had withstood mighty Carthage conquered fair Aegyptus and destroyed the great hosts of Persia was to be defeated by horse-riding illiterate barbarians from beyond the Steppe. Through the instrument of the Scourge was God’s will manifest as the Romans made a mockery of his chosen people and diluted the message of his Messiah[3]. The Lord’s curse fell upon Rome as it had done so long ago in the time of the Pharaoh of Aegyptus. As Attila's Hordes stood outside Rome's walls many believed it to be joining the ranks of Babylon and Carthage. Others saw Atilla " Augustus " and thought of the Parthians who had adopted Persian custom.

The Most Merciful however had different plans for the Roman Empire. From the South, the Eastern Emperor would arrive to beat back the barbarian Huns. The Empire was spared so that the citizens of the Eternal City would return to the religion of the Lord and for a time this was so. But again did Rome’s citizens fall into disbelief and debauchery and so the Lord again grew furious with the decadent ways of Rome.

Rome’s golden age had long gone and its provinces began to ignore Caesar’s edicts and laws and openly deviated from the righteous and just laws of Rome. Regnum Brittania was effectively established during this period of upheaval in the Empire.The Prefect Syagrius proclaimed the Regnum Brittania as an Autonomous vassal Kingdom of Rome much to the distaste of Rome's Senate. In the reign of Emperor Maxentius, a Pannonian General named Orestes would rise through the ranks of the Military. Orestes from our sources was born in the province of Dalmatia[4] to the Prefect Maximinianus and his Illyrian[5] wife Theodora. Rome’s military was by this point was dominated by Germanic Generals and Gallic Auxiliaries. It was unbecoming for a Roman to seek out a career in its military and was even more so for the son of a Roman Prefect. Orestes would quickly rise through the ranks becoming a General a decade after enlisting in the military. His superb oratory skills made him well-liked in the Senate. The Emperor did not feel ecstatic about an ambitious upstart provincial and fearing a coup sent him to Hispania to quell the rebellious Iberian tribes.

This, however, would backfire as Orestes’ defeat of the Coalition of Lusitanian[6] tribes increased his support. Orestes’ Triumph awed foreign dignitaries and vassal Kings. Maxentius ever paranoid in his old age would try to assassinate the General. The Emperor angered at the failure of his agents would order their executions which would be a fatal error for the senile Emperor. The Historian Postumius Volusianus reports that the assassins poisoned Maxentius’ wine. Marcus Gratidianus, however, reports that the Emperor was stabbed to death by an enraged assassin.


--------

[1] 3 centuries before the Revelation (ie. 3 centuries before 610 A.D.) or the 3rd Century A.D.
[2] Atilla the Hun's epithet ITTL
[3] Jesus Christ or ITTL Rabbi Yeshua
[4] A Roman Province comprising OTL's Albania, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo and Serbia
[5] A Pre-Roman people native to the Roman Province of Dalmatia.
[6] A Roman Province in Iberia

Authors Note: I'm really sorry for this being such a short chapter and for taking so long to write this. Updates will come out slower than the last few chapters because of School and Life. Also please ignore the text in the upper right part of the map. The map was made before I made the chapter so most of it will be wrong or changed.
 
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This is so far really intriguing, and I really love how you haven't gone with the typical 'christianity never happens' route here. I look forward to seeing it continue :)
 
Chapter Four: The Great Crisis of the West Part II
A History of the Great Crisis of the West

The day following the Emperor’s death, the Senate proclaimed Orestes Emperor of Rome. Surprisingly, his appointment by the Senate seemed not to have produced any contenders. His counterpart in the East, Emperor Leo IV affirmed the Senate’s decision and made the journey from Constantinople to Rome. Seemingly satisfied with the personage of his Co-Emperor the Eastern Emperor returned to Constantinople. Orestes, secure in his position as Emperor of Rome, then launched the famed “Oresteian Reforms“[1].

By the 3rd century A.M.D.* the Western Legions had become corrupt and ill-disciplined in contrast to their Eastern counterparts. The Western Empire’s military by the reign of Emperor Orestes was comprised of a core of Non-Latin citizens headed by a Romano-Gallic elite and supported by Barbarian mercenaries (Often but not always from Rome's Allies). Barbarian mercenaries by the 3rd century A.M.D. made up half the military of the Western Empire[2]. Orestes’ set about to correct the follies of past Emperors by returning the Roman Military to its true state. Finding the average Latin citizen uninterested in fighting for Rome, Orestes would encourage the idea of the “ Courageous Roman Warrior “ amongst Rome's citizenry. In the days of Republic Roman soldiers had been entitled to land after retirement but as the Empire’s borders had shrunk so too did the Empire’s coffers. The Empire’s many civil wars and coups forced both Emperors and Usurper to rely on Barbarian mercenaries.

Orestes next sought to rein in the powerful Romano-Gallic Hierarchy that made up the core of Western Empire’s military. Vespasianus the Romano-Gallic governor of Lusitania was the first to be
“ retired “. Yet the Oresteian Reforms were not to go unbloodied as more of those of Gallic heritage were stripped of their rank, Romanised Gauls grew suspicious of the Emperor's intentions. Galerius, Governor of Dalmatia fearful of losing him and his kin’s privileged status in the Empire approached his distant cousin the Imperial Legate Maximianus. Maximianus[3] had been Orestes’ closest confidante in the early days of Orestes' reign. Yet, as Orestes began to assume the role of Augustus their friendship became more strained. Orestes’ seeming vendetta against Maximianus kin further strained relations between the two. As civil war brewed an outside threat loomed with teeth bared over a divided Empire.

Odoacer[4] now the King of a coalition of Barbarian Tribes had made an alliance with the Gothic King Wallia. The Visigoths unlike their eastern cousins the Ostrogoths had not assimilated into the greater Roman society. The Visigoths had like their cousins the Ostrogoths swore to Augustus, but in reality were only nominal subjects of Rome. Odoacer a Tribal Chieftain of most undignified character had been born a Prince of the Scirii[5] sometime in the Autumn of 190 A.M.D [420 A.D.][6] to King Edeko and his wife Julia. The Historian Maximus Damascenus however, claims otherwise, Maximus believed Odoacer’s mother to be a Frank and not a Roman. King Edeko was a hated enemy of Rome throughout his reign over the Scirii. Edeko from the sources of the esteemed historian Marcus Gratidianus, died from alcohol poisoning as the Lord had warned against through his Messenger. The title of King of the Scirii was traditionally passed down from father to the eldest son, however, Odoacer was disliked by most of his father’s vassal chieftains for his infamous cruelty and ruthlessness. A night before Odoacer would be proclaimed King of the Scirii by the Shaman of the Scirii the Chiefs surrounded the young king’s palace. Thinking they had outsmarted Odoacer they set fire to the palace. Odoacer meanwhile had escaped early in the night having been warned by one of his loyal chieftains.

Odoacer rode on his steed to Eastern Roman province of Moesia where he sought asylum in the lands under the protection of Rome. He would enlist in a Roman Legion and would fight against both the armies of the heathen Shahanshah and the Barbarian Tribes to the North of the Empire. After a decade spent fighting in Rome’s Legions, he would return to the Scirii with an Army.


Damasco 26th of Augustus 11 A.P.R.
( Anno Post Revalationem )


" Allahuakbar " Omar raised his hands to his ears before folding his right arm above his left. The congregation of both women and men standing behind him echoed him before following suit. A year had passed since Omar had set foot in the city. Omar had come to Damascus before but never had he come alone he had always come with at least a caravan of camels stacked with Incense from Yemen, Spices from al-Hind and Idols from the Hejaz. After the prayer Omar would sit to listen to the various ails of his congregation, handing out advice and religious guidance. Today was no different, and the congregation's problems were likewise no different. " Ya Allah " Omar sighed as Zulayqah argued with Romulus over the same disagreement they had aired the week before. Zulayqah, the daughter of a rich Arab merchant had been one of Omar's earliest converts but was also one of Omar's most zealous. " Ya, Omar how can we tolerate the Kafir[7] when they fornicate in public and worship their Idols. Thank God my Family converted I could not bear to see the false gods worshipped by my own kin ". Romulus the Roman convert was as devout as Zulayqah, however, that was where the similarities ended. Romulus was of humble origin and preferred a soft mysticism to Zulayqah's harsh literalism. " Sister[8] Zulayqah we must tolerate the Pagans for is not patience a tenet of the faith? ". Zulayqah glared at Romulus through her veil " We should smash the idols of Bacchus as the Messiah did with the merchant's stalls in the Temple ". Romulus horrified at his Sister in faith's treasonous zealotry turned to Omar.

Omar sighed " Ya Zulayqah it is true that the Kufr are outrageous in their beliefs but to destroy the idols of the Temple would be to invite the ire of the Prefects and the city of Damascus as a whole. Do you desire the scrutiny of the Prefects? Would you invite the persecution of your brothers and sister in the faith? ". Zulayqah now looked thoughtful " I see your point Ya Omar. I could not bear it if a Brother or a Sister were to die due to my impatience and anger ". Omar then turned to Romulus " Romulus it is true what you say of Patience. But is not the act of fornication in public disrespectful to Humanity is it not a private act? Is it not meant to be kept between woman and man, husband and wife or lover and beloved? Thus, it cannot be tolerated as it reduces Humans to the status of Animals ". Romulus flashing his characteristic grin nodded " I did not mean to say it was permissible Brother, but I thank you for your judgement ". As the two left Omar's house, no doubt to continue their argument, Omar looked on at the congregation. The congregation had grown drastically over the past year especially ever since the monk Izates had submitted to God. Omar preached to a congregation of over a hundred from many backgrounds and peoples. Most of his converts were Nazarenes both of the Imperial and Orthodox creeds which surprised the Arab but upon reflection was unsurprising. A minority like Romulus had followed Jupiter (or Zeus as he was called by the Greeks) before converting to Islam a still smaller minority were Persians who were uncommon but not rare in this part of the Empire. Hebrews surpassing the Nazarenes made up a plurality of his congregation which did not surprise the Meccan for did not both Moshe[9] and Muhammad believe in the same God?

Omar began to read from a scroll sent to him from Makkah. The first of such scrolls that had been written down by a literate Muslim. " In the name of God the Beneficient, the Merciful. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds... "[10]. Lost in his recitation of the holy script he did not realise Izates had sat down beside him until he heard his soothing voice recite along with him. Omar smiled but continued reciting the verse. After he had finished reciting the verse he embraced Izates " My Brother! You almost stopped my heart! ". Izates chuckled " Then I would have envied you for you would have gone to Jannah earlier than me ". Omar grimaced " How can God forgive me? The one who killed his beloved? ". Izates hugged the big oaf of a man tightly " Ya Allah! Do you doubt Allah's capacity for forgiveness? ". Omar shook his head " No my Brother, the question is does he want to forgive me? ". Izates began to recite another verse Except those who repent and come to believe and do the right, for whom God will turn evil into good, for God is forgiving and kind.[11]. Omar broke into tears " Ya Allah how great is the Lord !!! ".

-------

[1]ITTL a Meijiesque Roman Reform started by Orestes and continuing on into his successor's reigns
[2] ITTL faster deterioration of Roman professional Armies and a ridiculous reliance on mercenaries
[3] Roman Legate and close friend of Orestes ITTL. He is a made up character. Doesn't exist
[4] Not the same Odoacer. Though they both have similar roles and are both highly intelligent.
[5] An East Germanic Tribe of Eastern Europe. OTL's Odoacer is suspected to be a Scirii

[6] Trying out writing the dates right next to my custom date. Tell me if you like it.
[7] Unbeliever. Literal Translation: One who covers the Truth. Used to refer to non-muslims but generally disliked OTL to be thrown around as the word has sharp connotations and it can be considered a sin in OTL Islam to misuse the word.
[8] Not a literal Sister but a Sister in the Faith just in case you're unfamiliar with religious people using the term to refer to others of the same faith
[9] Moses
[10] Surah al Fatihah (English: The Opening). The first chapter or Surah of the Quran.
[11] 25:70, Surah al-Furqan. An OTL Meccan Surah
* Third century before Muhammad's Revelation.



 
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