Anglo-German War in 1899-1900 (Who Wins?)

Anglo-German War in 1899 (Who Wins?)

  • Great Britain Decisively

    Votes: 53 30.5%
  • Great Britain Tactically

    Votes: 70 40.2%
  • Stalemate

    Votes: 46 26.4%
  • Imperial Germany Decisively

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Imperial Germany Tactically

    Votes: 3 1.7%

  • Total voters
    174

LordKalvert

Banned
I'm not so sure that 6" belt was impenetrable - not to a RN first class PC, anyway. Was that Krupp or Harvey armour?

The 8" guns have a penetration at muzzle of up to 19" wrought iron equivalent and the 9.2" can go as high as 16" to 19" at 2,000 yards (depending on mark). So an 8" mark IV could pierce a 6" Harvey belt at 2,000 yards - and, of course, the QF guns can damage the upperworks.

So what kind of "older" cruisers are you thinking of that the Garibaldis made obsolete?

The entire line of protected cruisers built before them for one. The concept of the armored cruiser isn't new by any means but armored cruisers of the period incorporate a host of inventions that put them out of the league of older vessels.

The Harvey or Krupp depending on national preference armor is not only stronger but lighter than the earlier compound armor, forced boilers raise the speed and the quick firing guns firing smokeless powders pack a much greater punch than the older monster guns

Girabaldi class cruisers are good enough to make many older battleships obsolete- as the Japanese demonstrated at Tsushima
 

Saphroneth

Banned
The entire line of protected cruisers built before them for one. The concept of the armored cruiser isn't new by any means but armored cruisers of the period incorporate a host of inventions that put them out of the league of older vessels.

The Harvey or Krupp depending on national preference armor is not only stronger but lighter than the earlier compound armor, forced boilers raise the speed and the quick firing guns firing smokeless powders pack a much greater punch than the older monster guns

Girabaldi class cruisers are good enough to make many older battleships obsolete- as the Japanese demonstrated at Tsushima
Yeah, but what I'd like is for you to name a class.

The first Garibaldi class vesel went into the water in 1896. So the RN PCs around in 1894 include... the Edgar class.

6" of Krupp is 15.5" of wrought iron equivalent (while 6" of Harvey is 12" of wrought iron equivalent).

Now, the Edgar class has 2 9.2" guns of the mark VI type. These can penetrate 16.6" of wrought iron equivalent - i.e. 6.4" of Krupp - at 2,000 yards.

The Edgars have a speed of 20 knots - identical to the Garibaldis.
Their secondary gun batteries are identical, 10 6" QF each.

Therefore, I consider your claim that the 6" belt was impenetrable to be incorrect. The Garibaldis are more powerful, it's true, but not by much considering that the Garibaldi was supposed to make the Edgar obsolete.

I also can't verify for sure if that armour was Krupp - it might be mere Harvey.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Let's also look at that claim they make any older battleships obsolete.
Meet HMS Centurion, a lightly armed battleship of 1894.

She has four 10" guns and a 12" (compound) belt. This belt is equivalent to 15" of wrought iron, much like the (if Krupp) belt of the Garibaldi class. When facing a 10" armed Garibaldi, their ability to penetrate the belts of the other ship is identical (though the Centurion has four guns to the Garibaldi 2); when facing an 8" armed Garibaldi they have the advantage.


Now let's look at HMS Royal Sovereign, a battleship of 1892. She has an 18" belt of compound, which equates to a 22.5" thickness of wrought iron, and she carries four 13.5" guns which can penetrate 26" of wrought iron at 2,000 yards.
Royal Sovereign completely destroys the Garibaldi.

ED: in fact, you have to go back as far as the Ajax class of 1884 to get a ship which could not penetrate 6" Krupp (i.e. 16" wrought iron equivalent) at 2,000 yards.
 
As I'm at it the Naval Defence Act (1889) provided for a grand total of 42 protected cruisers (9 first, 29 second and 4 third class). The second and third class ships consisted of:

21 Apollo class (2nd class) which were enlarged Meda class
8 Astrea class (2nd class) which were enlarged Apollo class
4 Pallas class (3rd class) which were repeats of the Pearl class

The Spencer Programme was originally for a grand total of 32 protected cruisers (8 first, 20 second and 4 third class) as well. However, the numbers actually built were different. That is there were more first class cruisers (10 built - 2 Powerful and 8 Diadem), fewer second class cruisers (15 built) and more third class cruisers (11 built). The orders placed after the Naval Defence Act to 1900 were as follows:

1893-94 3 Eclipse class
1894-95 6 Eclipse class
1895-96 4 Arrogant class
1896-97 3 Highflyer class (repeat Eclipse)
1900-01 2 Challenger class (repeat Eclipse)

Total 20 ships - the same as planned under the Spencer Programme, but they were built over a longer period than planned in 1893.

Most sources say that 12 Eclipse class were planned (only 9 were built) and 6 Arrogant class were planned (only 4 were built). Reference books do not count the Highflyer and Challenger classes as part of the Spencer Programme, but they usually count the last 4 Diadems as part of it and they were ordered concurrently with the Highflyers. Therefore I think the Highflyers which were repeats of the Eclipse class were part of the Spencer Programme.

My spreadsheet doesn't have the estimates for the Pelorus class third class protected cruisers that were built under the Spencer Programme. The original plan was for 4 third class cruisers and 7 torpedo gun boats, but it was changed to 11 third class cruisers.

Thus a grand total of 62 smaller cruisers were ordered 1889 to 1900. That is 47 second class and 15 third class ships.

There were also a number of unproteced cruising vessels classed as sloops and torpedo gun boats (TGB and also known as torpedo catchers). E.g. 18 TGBs (2 Sharpshooter, 11 Alarm and 5 Halcyon class) were built under the Naval Defence Act.
 
Most of the industrial capacity of Britain is used the same way but when war comes, immediate needs are sacrificed

Actually and this the thing the British have to sacrifice less,at least initially as they have far more industrial surplus than anyone else. Even more to the point they have more of their industry already located in the support of naval armaments. Now in the long run that was not such a good thing as naval armaments do not by themselves promote growth but at the point in question it is a big advanatge.

No, I wouldn't suggest that anyone come to the aid of Germany to help them out of a humiliation- they might join for their own reasons such as Italy deciding she needed Germany more than Britain or France and Russia deciding that Britain was her bigger enemy.

Yes that is precisely why you and other Anglo-phobes blatantly threadjacked this whole debate to make it one about the Chimerical Alliance Against Britain for Notional and Unexplained Reasons. There was not a lot of reason for anyone to fight the British and the rest of us have tried to explain why and why even for those nations tempted it was seen as a bad idea but you simply expect your arguments to outweigh a look at the circumstances that actually applied in the era because reasons.

No one does anyone favors in politics

Again that is exactly what you are assuming people will do for Germany here because of the unpalatable truth that Germany did not have sufficient heft to go toe to toe with Britain over Samoa at this time. She could dick the British about but when push came to shove Germany would get shoved over and knew it and it rankled then as much as it does to you now.



Completely off base- no one is aiding Germany because they "love" her. That's just silly. But taking the British down a notch and grabbing some spoils? That's a different story

No it is not, the cost benefit analysis simply ruled it out as an option, then as now, there was too much risk for not enough surety of gain.



well on the off chance that the British do manage to blockade the continent, they just trade with each other and manage quite well. It might even induce them to reduce their trade barriers with each other and then their economies would boom

No just about it, the dislocations involved in changing their patterns of trade would hurt and sea transport is more economical than land transport of any form which is why so much use is made of it. Even with cross border trade flourishing the loss of cheaper good from overseas would hurt.



Funny how the British never really thought they had this kind of power- when like the cabinet told Salisbury that even with Italian support, they would never agree to attack the Sultan without a French declaration of neutrality

No the point is the British made cost benefit analyses on a case by case basis, something you require the rest of the world to forget how to do because hatred of Britain. We are asked to assess what Britain will do in the face of outright attack...well we know the Boers tried and the British went to war and they kept spending on that war until they won. What the British did not do was go around blindly attacking everyone else because yup, that is the way you do find yourself facing pan-global alliances of hostile powers. Yet here with Germany pushing to outright war over a minor tussle the other side of the world you ask us to believe that everyone will attack Britain because you ask us to believe only the British are capable of cost benefit analysis.


Not "more" powers but yes the French-German-Russian combination is lord of Europe and all the continental powers would ally themselves with it

Only in badly programmed computer strategy game, to maintain their independence the lesser powers would flock to British protection against these as Britain was balanced by these would be hegemons and so their own best interest is best served by that alliance. Only given the natural rivalries of the afore-named nations you really need to provide better motivation for such as alliance as 'hates England' was not enough, France and Germany competed for English friendship in fact.


See Arube and Jeune ecole. Torpedo boats were high on the list of weapons for commerce raiding. The biggest threat to the British from them is that the French have massive numbers and the short channel to deal with

Cruisers were to undertake the offence against commerce while torpedo boats were to defend French shores to make up for the disparity in the two sides battle lines. The British did study the effectiveness of torpedo boats on the attack but the conclusion was it was not enough and other navies agreed hence why spending on cruisers and even battleships for the smaller powers still exceeded that on torpedo boats even though the same number of francs buys more torpedo boats.


Quite interesting- a bigger ocean makes raiding commerce harder? How exactly? A bigger ocean means that the British have to spend more protecting their commerce. You only have to attack a ship once but you have to protect it for the whole journey

To raid it you have to find it.

Forcing the British into convoys around the entire world would be tantamount to sinking more than 75% of them it would reduce capacity that much

We both know you cannot substantiate that claim as it is just silly now don't we? :D

And when did I ever say that anyone loved the Germans?

Well unless they do they are not going to make the sacrifices required to make your alliance work so if even you cannot bring yourself to say it you had better hope they felt it in their hearts
 
Regarding the comments about torpedo boats I think the Royal Navy was well prepared to meet the threat.

It had acquired 96 first class torpedo boats between 1876 and 1894. Another 30 were planned under the Spence Programme, but it was decided to use the money to build 12 torpedo boat destroyers (TBDs) in their place. Then they ordered another 13 in the 1899-00 to 1902-03 programmes, which in my opinion was a backwards step, because I think they should have ordered more TBDs even if they were more expensive. The RN also acquired 7 first class boats that had been bought by India at about the same time a the 1899-03 boats, bringing the total to 116, although some of the earlier boats had been scrapped by the time Her Majesty's Torpedo Boat No. 117 completed in 1905. Note that 117 ordered in total but only 116 accepted because No. 16 was cancelled due to delays in her construction.

Meanwhile the first 6 TBDs had been ordered in the 1892-93 estimates and a grand total of 113 had been ordered by the 1900-01 estimates. As the first 108 were ordered between 1892-93 and 1898-99 the vast majority would have been in service when the Anglo-German War breaks out.

Edit

I forgot to add the 33 TGBs (1 Rattlesnake, 3 Grasshopper, 13 Sharpshooter, 11 Alarm and 5 Halcyon class) which were considered failures at the time because they were not fast enough to catch up with the torpedo boats they were meat to counter (hence their original name torpedo catchers (probably)). However, the trials were carried out in unrealistic (i.e. perfect) sea conditions and the torpedo boats would have been slower in realistic sea conditions. Furthermore by 1900 the Royal Navy worked out that it was more effective for the TGBs and TBDs to screen the battleships rather than patrol off the enemy's torpedo boat bases. Both reasons contributed to the Royal Navy discontinuing production of the 30-knot TBDs (which became the A to D classes) in favour of the 25-knot River (later E class), which although slower than its predecessors on paper was faster under realistic sea conditions.

British warships of the White Era (after William White the DNC in the 1890s) were criticised for being under armed for their size. However, they were usually more seaworthy and more battle worthy. That is:

  1. Had more ammunition per gun;
  2. Were usually faster in realistic sea conditions (because of a requirement for rapid transfer between the Home Station and Mediterranean);
  3. Carried more coal or greater endurance;
  4. Could take more punishment. The latter did not just include thicker armour, it also included better internal subdivision for damage control, e.g. counter flooding.
 
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"See Arube and Jeune ecole. Torpedo boats were high on the list of weapons for commerce raiding. The biggest threat to the British from them is that the French have massive numbers and the short channel to deal with"

The French torpedo boats were mostly concentrated on the Med with their eyes set firmly on Malta. As was most of the French cruiser fleet which was based at Touloun. The sheer material abudance of the RN is obscene, they outnumbered every navy worth a damn combined. They had bases all over the world and this gave them a HUGE strategic advantage. If someone wanted to cause havoc in the atlantic with cruisers. Namely france, then they have to get out and then go cruising hunting for individual targets whilst blitzing through coal. Triple expansion engines are not that efficient and tended to be quite fuel hungry. Lets use the French as an example.

Because of the absolute chaos in their naval ministry which was caused by the idiocy of the Jeune Ecole, their ships were very often utterly obsolete when launched, with massive building times (a decade in quite a few cases, the RN was able to fart out a Royal Soverign in 18 months) The older French ships had older guns, boilers and armour. Lets take a look at one of the main ships of the MN at the time.

Marceau Class battleship.

3 guns on a broadside but their propellant was an older generation due to the age of their guns, and wasn't that different to the black powder propellant of Nelson's era. They had cylindrical compound boilers which were far less efficient because again, they were of a previous generation. They took over a decade to build 1 ship, and of the class, each one was different because they were built at different yards who seemingly looked at the plans went 'HON HON HON FUCK IT' and built something LIKE what the plans were with their own take on it.

The torpedoboats of the time were not good. Nor were their torpedoes. Seriously if the MN threw its torpedo boats at the RN the RN could just turn away and go to flank speed. at about 18 knots with a torpedo boat doing 21 - 23 you're overtaking so slowly whilst under fire from the BB's guns. And lets not forget the RN went destroyer crazy (thank you Fisher) as they were to 'destroy' the french torpedo boats.

Assuming that the whole world does an immitation of most of this thread and suddenly dogpiles the British because of some squabble in a place that 3/4 of them can't find on a map, the RN is not going to go and snort powdered glass and say 'leave the destroyers at home lads' But then again its this forum and making the British or Allies be about as smart as a brain damaged spaniel, (usually to help those poor spunky underdogs the Nazis who would have won if not for that nasty Mr Hitler) is very much in vogue...
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Actually and this the thing the British have to sacrifice less,at least initially as they have far more industrial surplus than anyone else. Even more to the point they have more of their industry already located in the support of naval armaments.
In this vein, it's worth noting that those ACs mentioned - the Garibaldi class - used British weapons. Elswick and Armstrong Whitworth between them built all of their main guns and their 6" QF guns, a total of
8 10"
22 8"
128 6"
provided to ships being built by other navies, just in this one class.

Without the help of the British, those ACs which are supposed to have frightened them so didn't exist - thus I think we can see the RN felt it probably had a handle on it.

Nor were their torpedoes


And in this vein - 1900 era torpedoes. Let's look at the torpedoes of Germany and France in 1900.

The newest German torpedo in service has a range of 1,310 yards. This is a cruiser torpedo - the torpedo boats had ones with a range of 550 yards (at 29 knots) and a 40 kg TNT warhead.

These are shorter ranged than a smoothbore cannon.

The French? They're using the Whitehead, like everyone else. A range of 800 yards is possible.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
I'd also like to relate something about British anti torpedo tactics and training. It's from a bit earlier, but it shows they weren't just fat, dumb and happy:




On the 7th, the weather continuing bad and the sea being too heavy to admit of placing the mines as contemplated, the torpedo-boats, eight in number, were sent away under Commander Galway to attack the squadron after nightfall. It was arranged that the gunboats and corvettes, which were anchored outside and around the three central lines of armoured vessels, should display their search lights in such a manner as to encircle the fleet with a band of light, outside of which armed launches and boats, in sight of each other, should be anchored to act as lookouts ; and beyond these again the second-class torpedo-boats (carried by the vessels of the fleet) should patrol the outer zone. The vessels had their torpedo-nets down. A quarter watch was kept at the guns and on the lookout.

The night was fairly clear and there was a steady breeze with a choppy sea. About 11.20 the enemy was discovered to the south and the guns of the Ajax were immediately after engaged. This attack failed. In the second, while several of the torpedo-boats reached striking distance, they were in most cases put out of action by the fire of the ships before they could effectively discharge their Whiteheads. Other attacks were made until the supply of torpedoes were exhausted. No ship struck by a torpedo, but torpedoes hit and were stopped by the nets of the Rupert, Hotspur, and Ajax.




The full text has more details of the exercise, which was in about 1885. Notable is that the British were using torpedoes with the warheads pulled and lights to show where the guns were "firing" - with hard rules about how long a ship had to be caught in a light beam before it was disabled. It's a very modern exercise.
 
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Oooh very interesting :) Thanks for this and the source too! But don't forget, this is this forum and its about the British, so special padded helmets on before we get on the short bus *insert British armed forces of any time period here*
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Oooh very interesting :) Thanks for this and the source too! But don't forget, this is this forum and its about the British, so special padded helmets on before we get on the short bus *insert British armed forces of any time period here*
That's the fun bit. I'm fairly sure we can rely on the lack of Britwank in the opinion of the Office of Naval Intelligence (United States), though the way they say spar torpedoes are more useful than fish torpedoes in 1885 is interesting - as is the way it's worded to suggest that the usefulness of the spar torpedo is a recent state of affairs! (They do suggest the spar torpedo as being an effective replacement to a ram, which I think is quite sensible from the point of view of avoiding OOPS!)
(Also that Norway took a month from a standing start to lay a protective minefield across Christansund, using existing mines and minelayers.) I'm quite glad of that as it supports a contention from a recent TL of mine...
 
I'm trying to remember the range of a Whitehead torp (an early one) at the time, It can't have been more than 500 yards and even then that has to be an obscenely long ranged shot.
 

Ryan

Donor
When I read these sorts of scenarios on here I can't help but think that otl must have been utterly miraculous on Britain's part for:

1) Europe to not unite in its hatred of Britain and lead a grand crusade against Britain to conquer it and divide the empire, and
2) For any country in Europe to get over it's seething hated of Britain (which surpasses their hatred of every other country in Europe combined) and actually ally with them and later on fight by their side.
 
When I read these sorts of scenarios on here I can't help but think that otl must have been utterly miraculous on Britain's part for:

1) Europe to not unite in its hatred of Britain and lead a grand crusade against Britain to conquer it and divide the empire, and
2) For any country in Europe to get over it's seething hated of Britain (which surpasses their hatred of every other country in Europe combined) and actually ally with them and later on fight by their side.

And don't forget that in WW2 the Nazi's really were not that bad (I mean they produced such AMAZING looking equipment and wore such snazzy uniforms they can't be the bad guys...can they?), sure it was all that Mr Hitlers fault for those nasty ideas about..well..EVERYONE...but omlette, eggs you know how it is. *eyeroll*

 

Saphroneth

Banned
UPDATE on the assessment of the Garibaldis - apparently Jane's and Renao Sicurezza agree that the belt was Harvey (making it equivalent to 12" of wrought iron). This means that the British 12" 35-ton RML gun could penetrate it at battle range, and that some British 6" guns could penetrate it at battle range too (2,000 yards) though the 6" QF gun was not among them.

So no - worthwhile ship, harder to sink than a PrC of the same rough size and armament, but not a revolution. I suspect part of the reason they were so effective when used by Japan is that the Japanese gun crews were so good and that the Russian fleet was rubbish. (e.g. so overloaded that the belt was underwater.)


And while I'm at it:

Because of the absolute chaos in their naval ministry which was caused by the idiocy of the Jeune Ecole, their ships were very often utterly obsolete when launched, with massive building times (a decade in quite a few cases, the RN was able to fart out a Royal Soverign in 18 months) The older French ships had older guns, boilers and armour. Lets take a look at one of the main ships of the MN at the time.

Marceau Class battleship.


Very much so. The first Marceau was ordered in 7 Oct 1880, laid down two years later and commissioned in 1892. The Marceau was ordered well before the Admiral class and commissioned barely ahead of the Royal Sovereigns.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Reading up on the Fashoda Incident, it was settled diplomatically because France realised they'd really like British help in any future war with Germany. A year later, a war breaks out over some far-flung Pacific islands. Yeah, no friggin way is France going to side with Germany, that would lose them the opportunity to regain Alsace Lorraine. Also, Britain can offer them help with taking German Cameroon (possibly the Sanaga River acts as a border), which would likely make up for much of the resentment over Fashoda. So at the least it's likely to be Britain+France vs. Germany. Who muscles in from there is anyone's guess.

The question is why wouldn't this supposed Anglo-German confrontation ALSO be settled diplomatically? The Samoan crises were historically (the hurricane helped) and the Germans weren't stupid.... At least not in 1900.

Best,
 

Ryan

Donor
The question is why wouldn't this supposed Anglo-German confrontation ALSO be settled diplomatically? The Samoan crises were historically (the hurricane helped) and the Germans weren't stupid.... At least not in 1900.

Best,

because the op says it isn't.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
every country in Europe which you said would suddenly attack Britain. are you forgetting what you've said in this thread?



in otl yes, but what's that got to do with this thread? the OP is asking about a situation where Germany escalates the crisis to the point of war with Britain.

So the Germans are reckless enough to risk a war with Britain over Samoa without allies is worth considering, but a Germany that is prudent enough to line up an alliance that is all of one nation off from the DreiKaiser alignment is not?

Yeah, okay.

Best,
 
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