TDM
Kicked
I agree with pretty much all this, but how is France going to cut Germany off from Romanian oil?
American industrial contribution to the British war effort post-June 40 if France doesn't fall?
- Thread starter Bougnas
- Start date
Jonathansouth
Banned
Up until the Fall of France. France and Romania were politically very close France was Romania's largest supplier of many goods including weapons hence why Romania fielded Hotchkiss Tanks even before the war started. Romania's realignment to the Axis was after the fall of France and after they were forced to cede land to Hungary as Romania had no allies left who could potentially intervene. If France doesn't fall not only does Romania not pivot towards the Axis but it almost certainly joins the allies.
It's more complicated than that. Romania played both sides in that they actually signed an agreement with Germany to export some 130 000t of oil per month to Germany in exchange for weapons and other goods, and that was between the DoW and the Battle of France. France and Britain also made agreements with Romania.
This situation is unlikely to last after a failed German invasion of France because of Allied pressure and the German need for its weapons, but Romania was definitely willing to trade with Germany as long as they could get something out of it.
Jonathansouth
Banned
Romania was part of the Little Entente, Romania was the reason why so many Polish troops were able to fight on, Romania did offer to join the Allies in September 39 but were talked out of it by the French
TDM
Kicked
It's not a question of desire but harsh reality. Because unless France can shift a meaningful amount of troop into Romania, Romania knows it's potentially the next adjustment Eastern European areas of influence between Germany and the USSR
Didn't Romania also intern half the fleeing Polish government under pressure from USSR & Germany?
and the only Little Entente I can find is this one?
You have link for that, because that suggests a very different picture to the one I'm aware of?
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Their offer to join the war was contingent on a very large Western Allied expeditionary force coming to fight in Romania/Poland, obviously that wasn't going to happen and when the Allies stood by and let Poland get overrun the whole idea died.
Yes, any intervention from Yugoslavia or Romania is only going to happen if Germany is collapsing (maybe to secure Czechoslovakia), but more likely they would have stayed put. Both of their forces were in the middle of rearmament programs in 1940-42 and the USSR was still scary enough to warrant caution next to occupied Poland.
So I've found some more info on the combined Franco-British orders.
These included:
- Martin 167 and 187
- P-38 Lightning (up to 800 considered)
- Curtiss P-46 (would most likely have been converted to P-40D by both France and the UK due to the 46's failure)
France and the UK also had exchange programs for niche weapons that one country didn't have in enough numbers domestically. This is how France was going to purchase Boys AT rifles to bolster AT capability at the company level, while Britain was going to receive B1 Bis/Ter tanks as an interim to A20/22/TOG, 25mm AT guns as they were lighter than 2pdr and to compliment it, and French LMGs.
Finally, France bought at least 3500 Allison V-1710 engines for their own uses. It was expected to stop receiving or ordering US weapons at the end of 1941 since by then the French industry should be good enough.
These included:
- Martin 167 and 187
- P-38 Lightning (up to 800 considered)
- Curtiss P-46 (would most likely have been converted to P-40D by both France and the UK due to the 46's failure)
France and the UK also had exchange programs for niche weapons that one country didn't have in enough numbers domestically. This is how France was going to purchase Boys AT rifles to bolster AT capability at the company level, while Britain was going to receive B1 Bis/Ter tanks as an interim to A20/22/TOG, 25mm AT guns as they were lighter than 2pdr and to compliment it, and French LMGs.
Finally, France bought at least 3500 Allison V-1710 engines for their own uses. It was expected to stop receiving or ordering US weapons at the end of 1941 since by then the French industry should be good enough.
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Driftless
Donor
^^^ By the contents of the list shown above, none of that should materially disprupt any goods for Britain - even with a different set of demands, coming from a "France Fights On" scenario.
The one potential constraint I could see is shipping capacity, with increased demand from both allies. Not much different than WWI problems. Who and what material goes first, and where?
The one potential constraint I could see is shipping capacity, with increased demand from both allies. Not much different than WWI problems. Who and what material goes first, and where?
Do you mean in the FFO from North America scenario or just a continental FFO scenario? In both cases the French merchant fleet would also help.
Driftless
Donor
Good point about the French merchant fleet. Still, there may some issues of protecting those merchies in early days from UBoats and potential raiders, before convoys and ASW gets up to speed. Even if France is still fighting on the mainland, merchies are going to both British and French ports, which is a wider swath to protect. Maybe a different twist to "Happy time" for the first year or so?
But at the same time those U-Boats don't operate from the French coasts and the density of ASW assets is greater, so it might cancel out.
Romania would have to reorient towards German after June 1940, no matter what happened in France. That month The Soviet pressed Romania to give up Bessarabia, and N Bukovina. Without German backing all of Romania would be in danger of Soviet invasion.
To further complicate it, Standard Oil & Chase Bank of the US were heavily invested in Rumanian Oil industry, and Italy had its hand in. Mussolini viewed Rumania as one of the remnants of the Roman Empire he thought to restore, & Rumania was a close source for fuel for the italian Navy and industry. So, political and financial connections followed. Politically and financially Rumania was in a great position to exploit the war. Geographically it was in a impossible position as Sweden, Yugoslavia, and about any other nation in Europe.