American industrial contribution to the British war effort post-June 40 if France doesn't fall?

[Driftless]

Rube question: when it would come to rarer, or other supply constrained supplies, how much of a bone of contention could those portion discussions become? And no, I have no clue what I mean in specifics, maybe special alloys for specific equipment, that kind of thing.

In effect, the "pie" would be getting split four ways vs three: US, Britain, France, USSR. Who goes to the head of the line for rare commodities?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The USSR isn't going to be getting US supplies because if France is still fighting there won't be an operation Barbarossa. The Soviets will still be Germany's near ally. At least until Stalin stops sending Germany food and supplies.

 

[marathag]

They likely would have struggled at first. The French Ford factory had no experience with non-standard designs. They generally had all plans and drawings, and often jigs prepared for them by the parent company. So unless they are Ford engines (which is possible) then the factory will have to go through the a steep learning curve before they are a reliable source of material.

Ford had no experience with large radials, but made over 50,000 R-2800s at a new plant at the Rouge

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Ford had no experience with large radials, but made over 50,000 R-2800s at a new plant at the Rouge

We have to consider timing in this. If France is to win this war before bankruptcy the material that can be delivered 1940-42 are the relevant items. The US hit its production mass 1943-44. So we want to look at whats practical 1941-42.

 

[ArtosStark]

Ford had no experience with large radials, but made over 50,000 R-2800s at a new plant at the Rouge

Ford US did, who had plenty of experience with building large numbers of engines and mass production techniques, and the company structure and people to make that happen. With those in place, the switch to radials is a relatively minor change. Ford France would largely have to build that from scratch. Possible, given time, but Ford France was not Ford US, or even Ford UK or Ford Germany at this point.

 

[Bougnas]

Ford had no experience with large radials, but made over 50,000 R-2800s at a new plant at the Rouge

Ford US did, who had plenty of experience with building large numbers of engines and mass production techniques, and the company structure and people to make that happen. With those in place, the switch to radials is a relatively minor change. Ford France would largely have to build that from scratch. Possible, given time, but Ford France was not Ford US, or even Ford UK or Ford Germany at this point.

Fordair at Poissy originally tried to build Merlins but this fell through as the British were in no position to really help. Instead it was decided to order tooling in the US to produce HS 12Y-51 engines. I think the company would have made a good contribution by the tail end of 1940.

Ford America itself was interested in building the HS 12Z, but the Morgenthau armament committee told US companies to build only their national engines with the exception of Packard and the Merlin, so that would probably have fallen through. More likely only the Swiss would have participated in 12Z R&D and production, since they were already on track to deliver 12Y-51s.

We have to consider timing in this. If France is to win this war before bankruptcy the material that can be delivered 1940-42 are the relevant items. The US hit its production mass 1943-44. So we want to look at whats practical 1941-42.

It's worth remembering the factor of France still being in the war and paying in 1940 through 42, as this would have resulted in a substantial increase in US production instead of being momentarily slowed down due to funding problems. Plus, domestic US needs themselves are severely reduced since the Army and AF wouldn't need to expand to the degree they did OTL. Production of French or export US gear would be massive already (moreso when you include Canadian production for the French too).

Now that I think of it, I recall that the UK wanted the US to build Matilda IIs for them. The Americans are less likely to refuse if they aren't the major partner and don't need as many vehicles themselves. Only one or two plants are really needed for Stuarts and Mediums.

 

[marathag]

Only one or two plants are really needed for Stuarts and Mediums.

As it was, by the end of 1942 the US realized they had excess production capacity for Armor - even with L-L in play, and several companies did not receive contracts to continue production for Shermans. I could see some of those companies getting French Contracts to build Char G1R or whatever.

 

[Bougnas]

As it was, by the end of 1942 the US realized they had excess production capacity for Armor - even with L-L in play, and several companies did not receive contracts to continue production for Shermans. I could see some of those companies getting French Contracts to build Char G1R or whatever.

And the other argument is that French tanks slated for production in the US were already developped and mature, while the US had to develop the Lee and Sherman in this period. Setting up production is quicker with developped vehicles. Vehicles slated for production were the Hotchkiss H39, Somua S40, B1 and IIRC maybe the AMD 178. Of course the decision wasn't made for future equipment.

 

[Driftless]

As it was, by the end of 1942 the US realized they had excess production capacity for Armor - even with L-L in play, and several companies did not receive contracts to continue production for Shermans. I could see some of those companies getting French Contracts to build Char G1R or whatever.

And the other argument is that French tanks slated for production in the US were already developped and mature, while the US had to develop the Lee and Sherman in this period. Setting up production is quicker with developped vehicles. Vehicles slated for production were the Hotchkiss H39, Somua S40, B1 and IIRC maybe the AMD 178. Of course the decision wasn't made for future equipment.

I'm guessing any machines built in the US to French designs would be in metric units.

 

[Bougnas]

I'm guessing any machines built in the US to French designs would be in metric units.

Yes.

 

[marathag]

I'm guessing any machines built in the US to French designs would be in metric units.

Packard showed that it could be done, with the Merlin. Or converted to US Standard, for speed of production and lose interchangeability

 

[Garrison]

Yeah if France doesn't fall in 1940 then the Germans are done regardless of what the USA does. I suspect there might not be a Lend-Lease per se but with the French to split the bills the British should be able to afford more cash and carry assuming they need it. Roosevelt will be pretty much able to stick to his publicly avowed policy of 'all assistance short of war'.

 

[Bougnas]

Yeah if France doesn't fall in 1940 then the Germans are done regardless of what the USA does. I suspect there might not be a Lend-Lease per se but with the French to split the bills the British should be able to afford more cash and carry assuming they need it. Roosevelt will be pretty much able to stick to his publicly avowed policy of 'all assistance short of war'.

Kind of. The French still wanted a lot of stuff built in the US so the US contribution would have still been major, but definitely much lower than in OTL WW2. It would be more akin to WW1.

 

[Garrison]

Kind of. The French still wanted a lot of stuff built in the US so the US contribution would have still been major, but definitely much lower than in OTL WW2. It would be more akin to WW1.

Which would be more than adequate if the Wehrmacht offensive stalls out in 1940.

 

[Driftless]

Kind of. The French still wanted a lot of stuff built in the US so the US contribution would have still been major, but definitely much lower than in OTL WW2. It would be more akin to WW1.

Was some of this line of thought due to much of the French military-industrial plants being in mid re-organization in the late 30s, hampering both material constraints and production capacity? So,..... basically, the French planned to sub-contract production from the US till French industry was back in full swing?

 

[Bougnas]

Was some of this line of thought due to much of the French military-industrial plants being in mid re-organization in the late 30s, hampering both material constraints and production capacity? So,..... basically, the French planned to sub-contract production from the US till French industry was back in full swing?

I don't think that even a more capable French industry would have been capable of fully meeting the Army's needs, but this is largely the reason yes.
Getting US weapons was very expensive compared to French equipment, but not only was production too slow, but the quality of several pieces of equipment was very lacking and the government hoped that buying American weapons would not only help as a stop-gap but would also force the national industry to step up their game in terms of quality.

 

[Belisarius II]

I suspect the best sources are in French. In English Kleins 'A Call to Arms' has a chapter or two on the effects of French and British funds on jump starting the US arms industry. The Neutrality Acts were neutered in the summer /autum of 1939 & the Cash & Carry policy instituted. This resulted in a mass of orders for arms and other industrial goods. One of the points Klein made was US industry demanded pmts up front for planning costs, new factory floor space, retooling, prototypes, ect... That was for reasons stretching back to 1917-1919. This was not a problem for 1939-1940 as both Britain and France had a couple years worth of currency, Gold, and other reserves. ie: in March 1940 France sent two warships with Gold bullion to the depository in Toronto as collateral for intended orders and pmts for existing orders.

One of the results was the construction of a final assembly facility and parts depot for Martin Aircraft in Morocco, that was assembling M-167 bombers in the Spring of 1940. Douglass had completed a similar facility in Algeria in April or May 1940. Initially to assemble DB-7 bombers. The two types were manufactured to French specs in the US and the assembled wings and fuselages sent separately to Africa for completion and flight testing. Assembled Hawk 75 interceptors (modified P36) were also sent to France. Altogether some 300 aircraft were accepted by the French air force April through May 1940, and another 300+ were enroute from the US. From third hand sources I've seen estimates another 1500+ aircraft were scheduled for delivery in the remainder of 1940 & orders for 3000+ aircraft were in negotiation for 1941. The French planners aimed for a standing operational air strength facing Germany in late 1941 of 10,000 aircraft. Combined from French, US, and British manufacture. To maintain a operating number of that the track record of the war suggests a a annual production of 5X would be needed. Since the British were able to reach a gross production alone of 30,000+ in 1941 a combined gross production of the two Allies and US purchases of 50,000 in 1941 does not seem beyond belief. I'd have to check, but I recall gross German production for 1941 was about 75% of the British gross*.

I don't have any useful sources for French finances. Some guesswork suggests their monetary reserves would have run out in 1942. that suggests why they were aiming at inflicting economic & military collapse on Germany NLT early 1943.

*
'Brute Force' by John Ellis has a table showing annual aircraft production by the major powers from 1939 to 1945 & the US from 1942 to 1945. It was not until 1942 German production obtained parity with the British. It was actually fairly lame 1939-1941.

Thanks, I never knew about U.S. aircraft plants in North Africa. All the more reason that the French should've fought on from the Empire in 1940. The Americans would've rearmed the French for the ongoing fight. At the very least the Italians would've lost Libya in 1941, if they got into the war at all.

 

[Belisarius II]

Rube question: when it would come to rarer, or other supply constrained supplies, how much of a bone of contention could those portion discussions become? And no, I have no clue what I mean in specifics, maybe special alloys for specific equipment, that kind of thing.

In effect, the "pie" would be getting split four ways vs three: US, Britain, France, USSR. Who goes to the head of the line for rare commodities?

That may be true, but the force pool for the Allies would be so much greater than in the OTL. The odds against Germany would become overwhelming.

 

[ArtosStark]

Instead it was decided to order tooling in the US to produce HS 12Y-51 engines. I think the company would have made a good contribution by the tail end of 1940.

If the design work was done in the US, yeah it probably could. There was, AFAIK, nothing wrong with their production ability. The problem was that their design department was too small, and had too little experience developing or adapting designs, most of that having been done for them in the US.

 

[Bougnas]

If the design work was done in the US, yeah it probably could. There was, AFAIK, nothing wrong with their production ability. The problem was that their design department was too small, and had too little experience developing or adapting designs, most of that having been done for them in the US.

There is no design necessary, the HS12Y-51 was already finished by the HS design bureau.
And if they use metric tooling no adaptation is needed.