Alternate Battle of Lorraine 1914

[marathag]

How long would it take to create artillery that could conquer the fortresses of Liege, for the French?

Took the Austrians 5 years to field the 305mm Mortars made by Skoda, and for Krupp to develop theri larger own design of a 305mm Mortar took four years, that after testing, decided a larger unit was needed for the latest improvements that the French had done to upgrade their Fortresses, and resulting in the larger 420mm M-Gerät, that took a bit over two years

The closest the French had before the War, were the de Bange 270 mm Mortier mle 1889.

Artillerie française de 1874 à 1914 : Toute l'évolution

Au cours de la période allant de 1874 à 1914, l'artillerie française a connu des changements majeurs qui ont façonné son rôle sur le champ de bataille.

www.fortiffsere.fr

After the start of the war, it took the French two years to convert this fixed coastal mount gun to a mobile unit, similar to what Skoda had, and the Schneider 370 mm Mortier mle 1914, that started development in 1908, was a mobile 'fixed' gun like Big Bertha, that had a long setup time

 

[Helmuth48]

A bit late, but I think 'Feste Kaiser Wilhelm II' deserves some extra attention. After all, this was Germany's largest fortress complex in 1914; it actually consists of two fortresses, four additional artillery batteries and several underground barracks, connected by tunnels. All this spread over a plateau and protected with barbed wire entanglements, trenches and casemates. Construction started in 1893. Major innovations included; the use of concrete, its own electricity supply and a radio link with Strassburg.

Feste Kaiser Wilhelm II, together with the fortress belt around Strassburg, formed the 'Breuschstellung', as I have indicated on the map below. This position therefore had to stop a French invasion.

This fortress is also one of the best preserved pre-WW1 fortresses, as it was never attacked in OTL (in TTL it might be). A part of the complex (battery 1) can be visited. Photos can be found here.

 

[Athelstane]

A bit late, but I think 'Feste Kaiser Wilhelm II' deserves some extra attention. After all, this was Germany's largest fortress complex in 1914; it actually consists of two fortresses, four additional artillery batteries and several underground barracks, connected by tunnels. All this spread over a plateau and protected with barbed wire entanglements, trenches and casemates. Construction started in 1893. Major innovations included; the use of concrete, its own electricity supply and a radio link with Strassburg.

Feste Kaiser Wilhelm II, together with the fortress belt around Strassburg, formed the 'Breuschstellung', as I have indicated on the map below. This position therefore had to stop a French invasion.

This fortress is also one of the best preserved pre-WW1 fortresses, as it was never attacked in OTL (in TTL it might be). A part of the complex (battery 1) can be visited. Photos can be found here.

View attachment 747855

Thanks for this.

There's another Ostaufmarsch timeline in progress, one executed with some thought and care, but which nonethless has Joffre steamrolling Strasburg in short order and blazing up the Rhine. But it's clear, especially from your links. that this was a pretty formidable defensive position, and even moderately manned, would have taken some time to reduce. And after that, reduce the city ring fortifications.

 

[Helmuth48]

Thanks for this.

There's another Ostaufmarsch timeline in progress, one executed with some thought and care, but which nonethless has Joffre steamrolling Strasburg in short order and blazing up the Rhine. But it's clear, especially from your links. that this was a pretty formidable defensive position, and even moderately manned, would have taken some time to reduce. And after that, reduce the city ring fortifications.

Yes, indeed, and with enough German forces available for defense, the French probably weren't even able to take such fortresses until 1916. In that year the 'Obusier de 400 Modèle 1915/1916' became available. This railway howitzer was first used in OTL during the battle of Verdun, to recapture / destroy two fortresses.

 

[Monk78]

What would be the affect of Germans withdrawing all the obsolete naval guns from old predread battleships and ironclads and putting them in the field to defend against the French attacks

 

[Helmuth48]

Some research in Google Earth resulted in another nice discovery: 'Infanterie Stützpunkt Heiteren' near Neubreisach. For a long time I thought that the Vauban fortress Neubreisach was obsolete, but in the years prior to WW1 it appears that the necessary infantry works have been built to defend the bridgehead. There was even an artillery battery near Fort Mortier! I have drawn all the fortifications on the map below. 'Fort de Heiteren', built in 1909, is best preserved and can be visited.

A short description, translated with Google Translate:

Neuf-Brisach bridgehead [1872 - 1918] - Brückenkopf Neubreisach
In order to meet the strategic requirements in Alsace as defined by the German high command, a bridgehead was created at Neuf-Brisach. It consists of a series of fortifications (Werk) sometimes forming a large unit (Werkgruppe) powerfully equipped with artillery equipment under armor. Neuf-Brisach was almost in the front line since it was only when the bridgehead was put in a state of defense that improvised positions would be set up (sectors of Wolfgantzen and Weckolsheim). Other improvised positions were built during the First World War as evidenced by the many blockhouses scattered here and there.
Most of these fortifications are currently in ruins, but the remains are still impressive. Only one infantry position, the infantry position of Heiteren (Infanterie Stützpunkt Heiteren) has remained perfectly intact to this day, it is now located in a private domain.

 

[Helmuth48]

Better late than never, but I've finally read "The Schlieffen Plan: International Perspectives on the German Strategy for World War I" with great interest! This book is highly recommended for anyone interested in pre-WW1 war strategy. Thanks to @NoMommsen for the recommendation!

I found some interesting statements by Moltke, such as:

Moltke, therefore, aimed at a more flexible strategy in a future war. “If the French come out of their fortification, then they move into the open field. There is no point to continuing to march through Belgium with strong forces if the main French army advances in Lorraine. Then only one thought can be decisive: to attack the French army with all available forces and to defeat it where it can be found. The march through Belgium is therefore not an aim in itself [Selbstzweck], but only a means to an end.”

In case of a massive French attack into Lorraine, Moltke was prepared to abandon the envelopment through Belgium, since the rapid destruction of the French Army seemed to be ensured nevertheless.

In a Denkschrift of 1913, Moltke even wrote that in case of a massive French advance on Lorraine the march through Belgium would lose its operational significance and Belgium would become a secondary theater of war.

If Moltke was already taking into account a massive French offensive in Lorraine, I am wondering why he started an offensive through Belgium in the first place. Impatience? Tunnel vision? Something like “We've been working on that offensive plan for so long, so we're going to use it anyway, otherwise all that effort would have been a wast of time”? Or the fear of Russia? Overestimating a (simultaneous) French/Russian offensive and underestimating Germany's own defensive capabilities?

 

[Helmuth48]

Also very interesting is the appendix “Deployment Plans, 1893–1914”. I have plotted the “Deployment Directives 1912, Aufmarsch II, West” on the map below, again limiting myself to the Corps level. This deployment plan is intended for a war with Russia, whereby the following applies: “Initially, France will be neutral. The possibility of a war against France remains.”

• 4 armies are deployed in East Prussia (1st to 4th).
• 3 armies are deployed in the West (5th to 7th) under the High Command of the Western Army (Supreme Headquarters II), with a total of 17 Army Corps.

Short description:

• Fifth Army (5 army corps, 1 Senior Cavalry Commander, 2 cavalry divisions, 3 combined Landwehr brigades) will march between Burg-Reuland and Mettlach–Perl, with Senior Cavalry Commander west of Diedenhofen.
• Sixth Army (5 army corps, 1 Senior Cavalry Commander, 3 cavalry divisions, 2 combined Landwehr brigades) will deploy between Sierck and Strassburg, with Senior Cavalry Commander between Metz and Strassburg.
• Seventh Army (5 army corps, 3 combined Landwehr brigades) will marshal between Dillingen (northwest of Saarlouis) and Buchsweiler (west of Hagenau).
• Troops in Upper Alsace (2 army corps, 3½ combined Landwehr brigades) will deploy on both sides of the Rhine north and south of Neu-Breisach.

The “Troops in Upper Alsace” are not under any army command. In 1912 Germany had only 7 army inspectorates. Upon mobilization, these army inspectorates became army commands. The 8th Inspectorate was established in 1913, allowing Germany to form 8 army commands upon mobilization in 1914.

Remarkable about this deployment plan is the large spread of the 6th Army; between Diedenhofen and Strassburg. Not really a plan to perform a counter offensive. But perhaps that role was assigned to the 7th Army, which gathered behind the Saar?

 

[Helmuth48]

For the sake of completeness I also plotted the OTL deployment of 1914 on the map. 4 armies are now deployed in the same area, with a total of 18 army corps. The 1st to 3rd army march through Belgium, the 4th and 5th army through Luxembourg.

The 6th Army was initially ordered to advance as far as the Meurthe river and to destroy Fort Manonviller, unless the French army launched a massive offensive. In that case, the 6th Army had to retreat. Moltke's thoughts on this:

“The leaders of the French army always attacked in Lorraine. General von Moltke was absolutely convinced that such an attack would occur in the casus belli.” In that case his intent was that “the army deployed in Lorraine should let the enemy advance farther into Lorraine so that the available [German] forces could launch an enveloping attack from Metz and from the direction of Strasbourg.”

 

[Helmuth48]

The German deployment plans were adjusted every year according to the political and military situation. In 1913, “Plan XVII” was accepted in France. With this, France had definitively abandoned its defensive strategy and opted for the offensive. In the case of a German-Russian war, a Russian (and French) victory was only possible if France attacked simultaneously with Russia ASAP, was the thought of Joffre.

Moltke was aware of this. If he had adhered to an east first strategy, he would undoubtedly have adapted the “Deployment Directives 1912”. After all, war with France was no longer seen as a 'possibility', but as a certainty.

I have therefore taken the liberty to adjust the “Deployment Directives 1912”, see the map below. Since a French offensive is assumed as a certainty, this is taken into account in the deployment plan: No deployment of an army in the middle of Lorraine, but only between Metz and Saarbrücken (6th army) and behind the Saar (7th army). These two armies aim is to envelop and annihilate the French invasion force.

The 5th Army is deployed between Diedenhofen and Trier and has the task of occupying Luxembourg directly after the start of the war. This in order to block a French offensive through Luxembourg (and the south of Belgium?).

The 8th Army Command is now available and has the task of defending Alsace and supporting the 7th Army.

Two extra army corps will be deployed in the west (I choose the Guards- and Guards-Reserve Corps). An additional advantage is that the pressure on the East Prussian railways is a bit relieved. In case Britain remains neutral, the IX Reserve Corps (Army of the North) is added to the 5th Army. This brings the total number of army corps in the west to 20, which makes the plan compliant with the OP.

 

[Athelstane]

In case Britain remains neutral

Which seems far more likely in this scenario. Unless Tirpitz does something phenomenally stupid like ordering the High Seas Fleet down the English Channel.

P.S. Great maps, as always!

 

[NoMommsen]

First off :

THX a LOT 👏​

for your efforts to bring as all this info in such impressable maps
Nevertheless there a a few ... 'nitpicks'

...
The “Troops in Upper Alsace” are not under any army command. In 1912 Germany had only 7 army inspectorates. Upon mobilization, these army inspectorates became army commands. The 8th Inspectorate was established in 1913, allowing Germany to form 8 army commands upon mobilization in 1914.

If this would have been all true - the Army Inspectors becomming the Army commanders - then there should have been only 5 armies "deployable" with proper army-commands until 1907 when Army Inspectorate VI was created, followed by Inspectorate VII in autumn/September 1912 and Inspectorate VIII in summer/July 1913.

But - at least since 1900 - only the "Eastern-Deployments" (Aufmarsch II East) from the Mob-period 1909/1910 onwards counted overall 'only' 7 armies while for a Big Western Deployment there were alltogether 8 armies - 7 in the west plus 1 in the east. Seemingly the GHreat General Staff was well able to set up 'additional' army commands without the 'proper' number of army inspectorates.
It also should not be forgotten that these Army Inspectors didn't even have any command power over the Coprs commands of their inspectorate in peace time and therefore not even a staff that might have sufficiently served as the kernel for an army staff. The single Army Inspector hadn't much more than an adjutatnt with a few officials serving to organize their boss' planed inspection of troops - and more important of the officers corps of 'his' Corps.

...
Remarkable about this deployment plan is the large spread of the 6th Army; between Diedenhofen and Strassburg. Not really a plan to perform a counter offensive. But perhaps that role was assigned to the 7th Army, which gathered behind the Saar?

Rather the opposite.
The 'streched' 6th army played the role of Hannibals thinnly spread spanian and celtic infantry in 216 bc. with the explicit task to retreat and 'lure' the enemy into a trap being closed by flanking troops of his africans.
In the german case of 1912/13 by the corps of 7th army VERY convieniently placed right at the railhubs for quick north-south transport reinforcing the german 'wings' at Metz/The Nied and/or Zabern/Strassburg depending on the details of the french advance into Lorraine.

... as much as Joffre was committed to 'attaque a outrance' ... your choice of positining the german troops might even cry out tooo loud for even him " TRAAAAP" to actually run into it. Not to forget that in such a scenario Joffres 'free leg' (4th Army) would very likely be rushed into Lorraine as well pressing even more towards Saasrbrücken in securing french 2nd army's left.
Might also bear the risk of a too fast advance of french spearheads resulting in a split between 6th and 7th armies. Also for the germans borders between units were points of weakness.

 

[Athelstane]

... as much as Joffre was committed to 'attaque a outrance' ... your choice of positining the german troops might even cry out tooo loud for even him " TRAAAAP" to actually run into it.

Hmmm....possibly. But he could be awfully pigheaded.

 

[kham_coc]

Hmmm....possibly. But he could be awfully pigheaded.

it's also worth noting that Russia is going to be screaming at the French to attack.

 

[Athelstane]

it's also worth noting that Russia is going to be screaming at the French to attack.

Yup

 

[Helmuth48]

If this would have been all true - the Army Inspectors becomming the Army commanders - then there should have been only 5 armies "deployable" with proper army-commands until 1907 when Army Inspectorate VI was created, followed by Inspectorate VII in autumn/September 1912 and Inspectorate VIII in summer/July 1913.

Thanks for the additional information, the wikipedia article was not clear about this. I haven't checked the older deployment plans (yet). Maybe something to make a map series out of... someday.

The 'streched' 6th army played the role of Hannibals thinnly spread spanian and celtic infantry in 216 bc. with the explicit task to retreat and 'lure' the enemy into a trap being closed by flanking troops of his africans.
In the german case of 1912/13 by the corps of 7th army VERY convieniently placed right at the railhubs for quick north-south transport reinforcing the german 'wings' at Metz/The Nied and/or Zabern/Strassburg depending on the details of the french advance into Lorraine.

Interesting... that's a good explanation! Learned something

... as much as Joffre was committed to 'attaque a outrance' ... your choice of positining the german troops might even cry out tooo loud for even him " TRAAAAP" to actually run into it. Not to forget that in such a scenario Joffres 'free leg' (4th Army) would very likely be rushed into Lorraine as well pressing even more towards Saasrbrücken in securing french 2nd army's left.
Might also bear the risk of a too fast advance of french spearheads resulting in a split between 6th and 7th armies. Also for the germans borders between units were points of weakness.

Hmm, would you think so? I understood that the French in OTL were very careful and methodical in their advance in Lorraine. That they kept their front tightly closed and that they were constantly afraid of flank attacks. In fact, they advanced so slowly that the 6th Army Command lost its patience and launched a frontal counter-attack before an envelopment was even possible. The French hadn't expected a frontal attack, so it worked out well in the end.

 

[Helmuth48]

The 'Deployment Directives 1912' also includes a deployment plan for the east, for which I made new maps as well. These can be found in a new thread: Alternate Battle of Poland 1914

 

[Helmuth48]

I recently found this French digital library (https://gallica.bnf.fr), including an extensive map collection. This also includes maps of Alsace-Lorraine from the German period, such as this beautiful map of the iron ore mining area. It also shows that German smelting companies were involved in the French part of the ore field. For those interested, a high-resolution map can be viewed here.

 

[Athelstane]

I recently found this French digital library (https://gallica.bnf.fr), including an extensive map collection. This also includes maps of Alsace-Lorraine from the German period, such as this beautiful map of the iron ore mining area. It also shows that German smelting companies were involved in the French part of the ore field. For those interested, a high-resolution map can be viewed here.

View attachment 878192

Well. This is remarkable. I've never seen such a detailed map of this from that period.