Alternate Battle of Lorraine 1914

[kham_coc]

No one in Britain cares about Belgium so they won't mind if the French go through it or not. This is about the sacred right of the British to rule over Hindus, Muslims, Africans and others. It's also about not being sold into slavery.

The rights of Belgium are only worth what the Belgians are willing to pay to defend them.

I don't think the british are willing to risk belgium if they are in the war - At best, Belgium doesn't resist, and Germany loses the war, something the british thought was going to happen, indeed that's one of the reasons they join in this scenario, so not much uppside Or, Belgium resists, and the HSF can operate from Flanders, very bad.
They would only really do it if they were desperate, but if they are desperate, the Risk of Belgian resistance goes up dramatically, since germany is winning (and if it doesn't Germany might overrun Belgium, very bad).
So I think the UK would want to stay out of Belgium in almost all circumstances. It would only really be when the choice is catastrophic defeat (say, Russia out, an enraged Germany turning west, and a France that's not able to peace out, but also clearly not in a position to resist in a way that would see it remain a great power).
It's also worth noting that due to Geography, the Belgian detour isn't that useful for France.

 

[marathag]

I ask this again and again. Historical fact is that despite a vigorous attack 3 French armies got bloodily repulsed by 2 German armies. Why would 5 French armies do better against 4 German ones?

But well of course if ITTL Metz is only an old French fortress and not one of the most modern and poweful fortresses of the time, then it makes sense.

There was not a lot added after 1914, but the Germans were busy for 1870 till then

 

[acasewithfourstonesinit]

I vote for stalemate along more or less the existing border,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is the french and russian's bound by a treaty that is legally binding that they need to unconditionally conduct regardles's of any and all circumstance's an all out offensive as soon as possible against germany to tie down it's armies,

The french plan XVII had the french fourth (fifth) armies deployed to the northwest of third army that was held in place by the metz thionville superfortress complexe's and part of fifth german army,

With the second french army deployed on the southern side of the moselle vosge's gap and sixth german army deployed on the northern side of the moselle vosge's gap,

As part of fifth german army is deployed on the western side of the moselle vosge's gap with the seventh german army deployed on the eastern side,

And to the south is first french army deployed on the western side of vosge's belfort gap with german mixed landwehr landsturm brigade's deployed on the eastern side,

The french third (fourth) (fifth) (chasseurs alpins) armies and most reserve's or other military base unit's are on the wrong side of the moselle rhone and are three to ten day's away by foot and or train,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the großer ostaufmarsch plan had german armies divide evenly between east prussia and the left bank of the rhine,

Not only großer ostaufmarsch plan but aufmarsch I and (II) west and aufmarsch I and (II) ost had the german army in the moselle vosge's gap feigned retreat to lure a french army to a pre war pre planned line on the metz saarbrucken vosge's,

In a trap pincer movement battle of defeat in detail that would involve part of the army in the metz area and a army in the strasbourg area with most remaining german cavalry left in the west taking part,

The outcome of witch would have at least three french army corps encircled in a pocket with two more reduced to less then quarter strength holding a 100 kilometer line against part's of three german armies on the meurthe,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At witch time germany can do (a),

As german mixed landwehr landsturm brigade's conduct a delaying action's to lure a french army through the belfort gap to the strasbourg rhine area,

Well still holding on to the vosge's tell armies to the northwest are freed up to conduct a offensive that would have at least have two french army corps encircled in a pocket east of the vosge's with one more french army corps encircled in a pocket west of the vosge's,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At witch time germany can do (b),

If the french fourth (fifth) armies moves through the belgium ardennes mountain's and luxembourg then france would be seen by the international community to be in grievous violation of the internationally recognized first and second treatie's of london as well as in grievous violation of the internationally recognized sovereignty and neutrality of belgium and luxembourg,

As the french fourth (fifth) armies moves through the belgium ardennes mountain's and luxembourg the german fifth (sixth) armies moves to the western side of the moselle and the 4th german army moves in to belgium ardennes mountain's and luxembourg to contest the area,

As part of third french army moves to the eastern side of the moselle to reinforce the broken and shattered remnant's of demoralize formation's that now make up what's left of second french army,

The german fifth (sixth) armies conduct's a offensive from briey to bertrix overrunning part of third french army in the briey longwy area and cutting the rail and trail line's trapping the french fourth (fifth) armies in a pocket,

A pocket that has the german fifth (sixth) armies in the south and the 4th german army in the east with the belgium army in the west along the meuse,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At witch time germany can do (c),

The french fourth (fifth) armies and part of third french army moves to reinforce the broken and shattered remnant's of demoralize formation's that now make up what's left of second french army on the meurthe,

As the german sixth (seventh) armies and part of fifth german army from up on the line meurthe vosge's belfort gap,

The 4th german army moves to the western side of the moselle and conduct's a offensive from briey to longwy overrunning part of third french army in the briey longwy area,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scenario's involving the british expeditionary force,

The bef land's on the german north sea coast (netherlands) (denmark) (norway) (sweden) (german baltic coast),

The bef move through said neutral countrie's then the british would be seen by the international community to be in grievous violation of the internationally recognized sovereignty and neutrality of said neutral countrie's,

The german navy and north army were at the ready and the netherlands (denmark) (norway) (sweden) navy's were made ready and there armies raised hundreds of thousand's of landwehr landsturm troop's,

What do the american's and japanese do in this scenario,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scenario's involving switzerland,

The french move through switzerland then france would be seen by the international community to be in grievous violation of the internationally recognized sovereignty and neutrality of switzerland,

Switzerland would raise hundred's of thousand's of landwehr landsturm troop's and likely get kicked in to the central power's camp,

Italy would most likey be galvanize in to honoring it's commitment to the triple alliance and join the central power's camp,

What do the american's and japanese do in this scenario.

 

[Voltzz]

Looking at the maps for plan XVII, the French are going north through Belgium and Luxembourg. The Germans have no fortifications there that are worth anything.

Even with (fortified) Luxembourg, the Belgian-German Border is quite short (because of Maastricht) and mountainous. The Belgian railway network in this area was also much smaller than in the west and along the Meuse. I doubt France would be willing to violate Dutch neutrality and Belgium would never let French troops pass through the western part of the country

The Ardennes and the Eifel are in the way and inhibit fast movement.

 

[ferdi254]

Also if one wants to move via Belgium there is the „small“ problem of Liege. Nothing that the French have can cut out that fortress. So even if Belgium lets the French through they need to reach Liege in force before the Germans do.
Plus of course moving two armies through the Ardennes puts them on the end of a bad logistics and then they have to fight the Germans in a very well defendable area.

And add to that that the Germans, if push comes to shove can easily move two armies west back again and suddenly outnumber the French troops 2:1 on German soil.

So those two French armies will be squashed and then there is nothing in the way anymore between the German border and Paris.

 

[C.Z.A.R]

An east-first strategy and a German defense in the west has been discussed before. Still, I like to discuss in more detail such an alternate battle of Lorraine.

POD: At the outbreak of the First World War, instead of deployment plan "Aufmarsch II west", Germany implements the plan "Aufmarsch II ost". This means that Germany divides its armies 50/50 between East and West. In the east, the army is cautiously attacking to take Russian Poland. In the west is only defense and therefore no invasion of Belgium.
France honors its alliance with Russia and declares war on Germany on 5 August, after the first German divisions invaded Russia the day before. Germany occupies Luxembourg on 6 August. France carries out “Plan XVII” and on 7 August, the 7th Corps attacks towards Mülhausen. On 14 August, a larger offensive is launched, with the 1st and 2nd armies invading German Lorraine. On 21 August, the 3rd and 5th army attack towards Diedenhofen / Luxembourg. France tries to bring Britain on its side into the war and therefore respects Belgian neutrality too.

The map below shows the French and German deployment. I have limited myself to the Army Corps level, because otherwise the map will be too crowded. Some individual units (cavalry, reserves, etc.) are therefore not shown. I used a height model in the background, which gives a good impression of the (im)possibilities of the terrain. I also indicated the maximum range of the fortress artillery (about 10 km at the time). Both belligerents deploy about 20 Army Corps and are therefore fairly equal in strength. Is that assumption correct?

Question: How will this battle of Lorraine end? Unlike the OTL “Battle of Lorraine”, the French armies do not have to retreat to the west because of the German advance through Belgium. How far will the French be able to push through in Alsace, Lorraine and Luxembourg? How successful is a German counter-offensive? Let the battle begin!

View attachment 686854

Very late, but do you have a basemap of this? i.e, a map but without all the units but keeping the cities, borders and fortresses?

 

[Helmuth48]

Very late, but do you have a basemap of this? i.e, a map but without all the units but keeping the cities, borders and fortresses?

Of course, here it is:

 

[C.Z.A.R]

Of course, here it is:

View attachment 702847

Oh, and another thing. I've recently gotten into "mapgaming/wargaming" where players write reforms, fight wars, etc. and I've been making tons of war-maps. I'd just like to ask what you use to add misc. things to your maps (arrows, fortifications, etc).

 

[Helmuth48]

Oh, and another thing. I've recently gotten into "mapgaming/wargaming" where players write reforms, fight wars, etc. and I've been making tons of war-maps. I'd just like to ask what you use to add misc. things to your maps (arrows, fortifications, etc).

That wargaming seems interesting, where do you do that? I use Adobe Illustrator for all annotations on the map.

I recently found a short documentary on youtube about the battle in the Vosges, which also fits within this TL:

 

[C.Z.A.R]

That wargaming seems interesting, where do you do that? I use Adobe Illustrator for all annotations on the map.

I recently found a short documentary on youtube about the battle in the Vosges, which also fits within this TL:

It used to be done on forum pages, but it's been moved into discord servers with specific channels for mapping, war-moves, algorithms, etc.
For example, if I'm playing Russia in 1912, I'd write a post/reform-bill about the "Great Army Programme".
Or, if I was playing Germany in 1939, I'd write war-turns (similar to IRL Directives) to invade Poland & defend on the Franco-German frontier.

 

[C.Z.A.R]

Of course, here it is:

View attachment 702847

Sorry to bug you... again.....


Do you have a full map of Europe with that background? It doesn't need to have the labeling, although it would be preferred.

 

[Helmuth48]

Sorry to bug you... again.....


Do you have a full map of Europe with that background? It doesn't need to have the labeling, although it would be preferred.

Not yet, but I can make one... if I have time soon

 

[C.Z.A.R]

Not yet, but I can make one... if I have time soon

I'd love if you did! (I might make a TL myself...)

 

[Helmuth48]

Of course, here it is:

View attachment 711274

I edited the basemap with fortifications. I've added some secondary fortresses. By coincidence I also 'discovered' the Isteiner Klotz:

Around 1900, planning work for a fortress began on the Isteiner Klotz, which was intended to secure the Rhine crossings on the Upper Rhine. The actual construction of the fortress began in 1902 with the infantry plant, a three-story barracks for 1,500 men. In 1903 the three armored batteries were equipped with 10 cm guns with a range of about 10 km. Cavities at a depth of about 8 m established the connection between the various batteries and infantry works. During the war, the fortress was hardly involved in combat operations. According to the provisions of the Versailles Peace Treaty of June 28, 1919 on the demilitarization of Germany, the fortress had to be razed. The completion report came on November 17, 1921 – only rubble remained. [translated with Google Translate]

Turns out that a 'modern' German fortress has been built on the Upper Rhine after all!

 

[Helmuth48]

I'd love if you did! (I might make a TL myself...)

and here it is! I'm curious about your TL.

 

[Helmuth48]

I'd love if you did! (I might make a TL myself...)

I made two other variants of the OTL 1914 map, you might be interested:

 

[Helmuth48]

 

[EpicBoi]

Also if one wants to move via Belgium there is the „small“ problem of Liege. Nothing that the French have can cut out that fortress. So even if Belgium lets the French through they need to reach Liege in force before the Germans do.
Plus of course moving two armies through the Ardennes puts them on the end of a bad logistics and then they have to fight the Germans in a very well defendable area.

And add to that that the Germans, if push comes to shove can easily move two armies west back again and suddenly outnumber the French troops 2:1 on German soil.

So those two French armies will be squashed and then there is nothing in the way anymore between the German border and Paris.

Well if the French are fast enough maybe they can reach Liege before the Germans do.
I don't think the French can capture the Ruhr intact but the French can definitely tie some German forces down. Maybe threaten Thionville.
But if the French manage it then the Germans are significantly damaged.

The Germans may be able to hold the West but it'll require forces. Which reduces the opportunities of other theatres.

I don't think the French armies there would be squashed. They're more resilient than that.

 

[Helmuth48]

Well if the French are fast enough maybe they can reach Liege before the Germans do.
I don't think the French can capture the Ruhr intact but the French can definitely tie some German forces down. Maybe threaten Thionville.
But if the French manage it then the Germans are significantly damaged.

The Germans may be able to hold the West but it'll require forces. Which reduces the opportunities of other theatres.

I don't think the French armies there would be squashed. They're more resilient than that.

If France invades Belgium, they would have to pass through the Fortified position of Namur before reaching the Fortified position of Liège. This gives the Germans enough time to react and to help the Belgians with their defence. Besides, both cities were surrounded by fortresses, not only on the side of the anticipated attack.

To conquer the fortresses of Liège in OTL, the Germans needed the Big Bertha. The French did not even have this type of artillery. Their heaviest guns were the "De Bange 155 mm cannon", but these were located in their fortresses and not in mobile units. The French army corps only had "Canon de 75 modèle 1897" at their disposal, which was not suitable for the attack on fortifications, as the documentary below clearly explains.

All in all, this makes a French offensive (whether or not via Belgium) a hopeless case. The French government did not even give Joffre permission to violate Belgian neutrality. Unlike the German government, diplomacy apparently played a role with the French... But if the French were to invade Belgium, it would ultimately only mean a redistribution of the available armies along a longer front line (both on the French and German side).

 

[EpicBoi]

If France invades Belgium, they would have to pass through the Fortified position of Namur before reaching the Fortified position of Liège. This gives the Germans enough time to react and to help the Belgians with their defence. Besides, both cities were surrounded by fortresses, not only on the side of the anticipated attack.

To conquer the fortresses of Liège in OTL, the Germans needed the Big Bertha. The French did not even have this type of artillery. Their heaviest guns were the "De Bange 155 mm cannon", but these were located in their fortresses and not in mobile units. The French army corps only had "Canon de 75 modèle 1897" at their disposal, which was not suitable for the attack on fortifications, as the documentary below clearly explains.

All in all, this makes a French offensive (whether or not via Belgium) a hopeless case. The French government did not even give Joffre permission to violate Belgian neutrality. Unlike the German government, diplomacy apparently played a role with the French... But if the French were to invade Belgium, it would ultimately only mean a redistribution of the available armies along a longer front line (both on the French and German side).

How long would it take to create artillery that could conquer the fortresses of Liege, for the French?
And it's unlikely the Belgians and Luxembourg allow French forces in, but could there be a way of doing that?

An invasion of Belgium would divert German forces which would otherwise be used to take down Russia. So an invasion of Belgium could still be useful for keeping Russia alive.