Alamgirnama: A Mughal Timeline

[Madhukar_Shah]

Was going to message asking if this tl is alive and we got 2 updates!

Really enjoyed the the fact wing didn't just role over but pushed the mughals back. Qing is a mughal match.


Now that probably has alot of stories, how do mughal princesses act outside the empire? As they are mughal princesses and muslim.

Yep I’ve been working on it behind the scenes- though admittedly I have a tendency to go into far too much detail looking up garden design and the politics of 18th century Madagascar.

The Qing are going to have a very complicated relationship with their southern neighbours, but the Manchu leadership is most definitely not going to pull a Ming and just go isolationist so China’s probably going to be better off in the long run.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

I'd imagine that a more modern Mughals would also mean, ultimately, a more powerful Qing. Though I'd imagine the Mughals ultimately win, I'm eager to see the implications of a stronger China.

As in otl the question remains- where is it actually worth expanding to? The steppe is cut off to the west by the Mughals and going northwest is much harder logistically. Going south is a logistical nightmare and east would be.. interesting. The ring of islands encircling China remains so which ones they’d choose to take down for access to the Pacific will be interesting.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

The mansabdars are encouraged to actively take part in foreign trade but is it leading to a stagnation of internal trade or lead to a recession because of some event elsewhere in the world. Many generations only remember growth by this point.

On the contrary, internal trade is also flourishing- the more mansabdars make, the larger support staff they employ, the more wealth is diffused. Further, the ain I jahanzebi incentivises them to promote public works, like irrigation, roads and schools which also facilitate internal economic development. Also, the more mansabdars earn the more they are forced to give in zakat to the poor and the more is given to temples which also redistribute wealth and invest it productively.
Some industries are indeed suffering, as there is less demand for them like the arrow industry. Additionally farmers often get the short end of the stick, as they are manipulated into focusing on cash crops to their detriment, or they find that there is less demand for their food locally as it’s cheaper to import it from other places (common in the doab and across the eastern coast where a lot of food is imported from Patna and Bengal)

But yes the market is more sensitive and I’m planning a recession and it’s effects, but I’m gonna need more time to think about that.

Also it tends to be mansabdars that are more interested in Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean- in the traditional culture, it’s looked down upon as an uncivilised place, like Bengal was the century before. The state itself remains more interested in Central Asia, as it is a very prestigious and cultured place, trade is booming with China and Russia through it, and there are dynastic links. Like with Shah Jahan, it’ll take a definitive fiasco that proves further northwards expansion isn’t feasible to get the state to look across the sea. Nevertheless, in order to protect shipping by the 1750s there is no power that can challenge the Mughal navy on the open seas- this encourages them to spread out their zones of operation into the Pacific and atlantic. Indonesia remains a hotbed of piracy with its numerous inlets and coves that the large Mughal ships can’t follow them into, and for the moment that really is a thorn in the side of mansabdars trying to ship to China, but not of the state directly so they’re not the major priority.

 

[Rajveer Naha]

So only a American Vietnam or Soviet Afganistan esque scenario will make the Mughals look across the seas.

 

[Sardar]

I'm kinda confused as to the nature of the relationship between the Dzungars and the Mughals, are they allies, are the Dzungars a protectorate or something else? Also I'm not so sure that the Himalayan border would present a threat to the Mughals or Qing, I mean it is the Himalayas and it is pretty much impossible to pass any sizable army through the area. Still, very interesting on the mansabdari class. Was there any historical parallel to this kind of state sponsored entrepreneurship anywhere else in the world?

 

[souvikkundu25140017]

Will mughals try to expand towards northeast states? Like arunachal, nagaland, assam etc.

 

[haider najib]

Will mughals try to expand towards northeast states? Like arunachal, nagaland, assam etc.

I think they finally took assam a while back.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

So only a American Vietnam or Soviet Afganistan esque scenario will make the Mughals look across the seas.

Exactly- that situation happened with the repeated Kandahar and Uzbek campaigns of Shah Jahan, making him give up and turn towards the Deccan, almost annexing the two sultanates before Dara forced him to order Aurangzeb to end the campaign and come back to Hindustan, so as to deny Aurangzeb such a grand triumph. Otl, South India is subdued, and south east Asia is not only culturally alien but is so thinly populated and heavily forested it would present a severe challenge to conquer.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

I think they finally took assam a while back.

Yep- not through military conquest but by flooding with settlers and essentially pulling a Texas.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

I'm kinda confused as to the nature of the relationship between the Dzungars and the Mughals, are they allies, are the Dzungars a protectorate or something else? Also I'm not so sure that the Himalayan border would present a threat to the Mughals or Qing, I mean it is the Himalayas and it is pretty much impossible to pass any sizable army through the area. Still, very interesting on the mansabdari class. Was there any historical parallel to this kind of state sponsored entrepreneurship anywhere else in the world?

The Four Oirat (and Turani Khanate) are essentially federated with the Mughal state, sharing some common institutions, including military command structure, but with the oirat retaining some sovereignty over their ulus in internal affairs.

As for the mansabdars- I don’t actually know. Obviously I regard it as a plausible outcome of the pre existing economic role of mansabdars otl, as essentially portfolio capitalists, and the trend in the 18th century of mansabdars to solidify their control of local economies. But as for such a strong state promotion of this role, I haven’t the slightest.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

I can't help but wonder how the burgeoning tourism industry must be like in the Middle East and Central Asia to supply and attract all those travelers and their retinues. Iran alone must be seeing the largest economic growth in centuries just because of this, though the dramatic influx of specie in the country might also see inflation start to pick up.

 

[Sardar]

The Four Oirat (and Turani Khanate) are essentially federated with the Mughal state, sharing some common institutions, including military command structure, but with the oirat retaining some sovereignty over their ulus in internal affairs.

As for the mansabdars- I don’t actually know. Obviously I regard it as a plausible outcome of the pre existing economic role of mansabdars otl, as essentially portfolio capitalists, and the trend in the 18th century of mansabdars to solidify their control of local economies. But as for such a strong state promotion of this role, I haven’t the slightest.

Why would the Four Oirat and the Khanate agree to a sort of federation, when being close allies would most likely serve the same purpose? Despite being descendants of Timur and Genghis, by this time, the Mughals were pretty much Indian through and through, and I'm not sure the peoples of Central Asia would so readily accept the Mughals as their overlords, or even want them to be.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Why would the Four Oirat and the Khanate agree to a sort of federation, when being close allies would most likely serve the same purpose? Despite being descendants of Timur and Genghis, by this time, the Mughals were pretty much Indian through and through, and I'm not sure the peoples of Central Asia would so readily accept the Mughals as their overlords, or even want them to be.

That’s the thing- the emperor in Delhi isn’t their overlord. Just like the Khalkha Oirat federation of 1640, the new federation doesn’t have a specific head of state, and is marked by collective enforcement of the codes agreed to by all parties, which are meant to be equal partners. For the Turani Khanate, who run a real risk of being outright conquered, this is possibly the best deal they’re going to get and for the Oirat it’s a means of securing great power support similar to the Khalkha Qing alliance, as well as the aforementioned economic opportunities.

 

[Derekc2]

Though I have a feeling that, due to the inherit nature of Capitalist/Semi-Capitalist economical systems and uneven development of various states, the Turani Khanate & the Oirat are going to realize by the 19th century that the economical development in their territories are far more to the advantage of the economical interests of India in extracting the natural recourses found in Central Asia and the markets of the regions/nations to the benefits of Indian/Hindustan/Mughal manufactory/factory owners than to the actual long term economical development of the regions themselves.

 

[Nurhaci]

Glad to see another genocide has been prevent.In the title of previous it see the clash between Elephant and Dragon is coming soon.But this time even Tibet or Dzungar didn't become outbreak of war.So I want to ask the situation of Pamir and about Mughal-Qing trade in sea road .

 

[HerodotosofBerlin]

Oh god i finally finsihed reading through this amazinging timeline, I need to say that it probably is the best timeline on the board i ever read, but i have some queations.
Is Astrakhan controlled by Persia or the Ottomans?

Where exactly is the boarder of iran, india and the turani khanate in central asia?

Hows the swaheli coast doing under persia
Well i hope that these questions are easy to answer.
If im correct the muslim world is groing together very tightly, every nation is allied to each other isnt it? Would be pretty cool to see if they grow together even more.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Oh god i finally finsihed reading through this amazinging timeline, I need to say that it probably is the best timeline on the board i ever read, but i have some queations.
Is Astrakhan controlled by Persia or the Ottomans?

Where exactly is the boarder of iran, india and the turani khanate in central asia?

Hows the swaheli coast doing under persia
Well i hope that these questions are easy to answer.
If im correct the muslim world is groing together very tightly, every nation is allied to each other isnt it? Would be pretty cool to see if they grow together even more.

Welcome, it’s always nice to see a new face

Astrakhan is at the moment under Persian suzerainty, but it’s so autonomous it’s essentially a free city, seizing its role as an entrepôt in the overland Eurasian trade.

The border between the three Timurid states is roughly centred around Samarkand, which is acknowledged as the dynastic centre of all three territories. From Samarkand, north of the zeravshan is effectively Turani and east of the Amu Darya is effectively Iranian- again borders are porous and effectively defined by who can get other groups to get their soldiers out of a particular territory, and control its fortifications. Anyways, given the federation between the Turanis and the Indians, the border is rendered even more porous.

We’ll get round to the Swahili coast later, I think I’ll save discussing it until such time as changes from otl are significantly interesting to me.

Panislamic relations by no means are all rainbows and butterflies- the Indo-Persian alliance is relatively solid, but relations with the ottomans are acrimonious owing to Nader Shah. Not to mention the minor sultanates in east africa and Indonesia seeking great power allies to maintain independence. And west Africa’s going on it’s own divergent path, which again brings Morocco repeatedly in conflict against the ottomans. And with growing integration, it’s going to become harder and harder to ignore rival claims to the caliphate.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Glad to see another genocide has been prevent.In the title of previous it see the clash between Elephant and Dragon is coming soon.But this time even Tibet or Dzungar didn't become outbreak of war.So I want to ask the situation of Pamir and about Mughal-Qing trade in sea road .

Genocide is bad, and idk it might make it more realistic if I had genocides, but if I’m crafting a world i just don’t want it to be murdery. The transpamir states were all annexed with no fuss, once they realised that mercenary troops from Punjab would keep coming for them until they surrendered, they accepted incorporation as mansabdars, probably with mansabs no higher than 500.

Mughal trade with China is being treated by China exactly like european trade, with the Chinese essentially treating the Mughal state which it has conflicts with in Central Asia as a separate entity to the Rajas of Hindustan, who trade in its eastern seas.

 

[Derekc2]

So, something that I can't help but think, especially watching pop history stuff such as Crash Course History's stuff on the Mughal Empire for fun, is what is the perspective of Aurangzeb ITTL, both right now in it's 'present day' of the 1750's or so as well as what his probable image is of the ITTL present day in India's/ global popular culture? I'm asking since here he was the one of the major rulers who helped solidify the Empire and was one of it's major administrative reformers as well as unifying the Indian Subcontinent/continent (if Europe is a continent I really don't get why India isn't also a continent) under Mughal rule. He also has his general 'attempted to live up to the proper righteous ruler who respected the law and was genuinely polite, humble, hardworking and personally quite ascetic' as points in his general favor yet also has a few of his controversial decisions such as re-establishing the Jizya tax after generations of it not being a thing alongside how Aurangzeb came to power via overthrowing his father when he didn't realize his father was still alive, also his rather...austere mentality and undiplomatic nature was an issue for him as well during his rule; so he won't have the position of the perfect ruler his great grandfather Akbar has or that his ITTL grandson Jahanzeb Shah has.

Now personally, from what I gather above I do think he'll, at least in the ITTL modern day, probably have a generally positive reputation, but I imagine he'd be one of those rulers that people would also find fascinating in popular culture for his interesting combination of virtues and vices (alongside his virtues occasionally going to far and ending up as vices). So less an Akbar perfect ruler/ man and more the somewhat tragic yet still admirable man in charge of a major period of Indian History in their popular culture (which would likely make him a favorite as a protagonist/ major character in Historical Fiction). Do you all think the above is in any way accurate or am I off the mark you all feel? This is just my personal perspective from this story and I just find how figures are viewed in popular culture, alongside it's development to be personally fascinating a topic.

 

[Ski-U-Mahdi]

What is the religious make up of this India compared to OTL?