AHTL:Vox Non Incerta
- Thread starter HMS Audacious
- Start date
True in OTL but in ATL? In practice, It hardly matters either way in the case of the Altmark
(though it may for the wider purposes of the author of this ATL. We shall have to wait and see 🤔 )
In OTL, the RN had access to a few former prisoners of the Graf Spee who were released by that Captain when he entered Neutral safety
(unlike Altmark's, who broke these rules with the connivance of the Norwegians)
Moreover in this ATL, the RN has full access to many crew of the Graf Spee (they sank it at sea)
IMHO its highly likely that they will know that there are "many" prisoners on the Altmark, though perhaps not exact numbers.
NINJAed by said Author
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The hunt for the Altmark pt 7
With the prisoners freed from the Altmark and the Germans now POW's, Captain Vian assigns four of the prisoners to bury the dead. Two of the boarding party are tasked to keep the Germans under control while five of the party keep the ninety six other prisoners under control.
On-board the light cruiser Nurnburg at 32 knots the crew are preparing for action with the Royal Navy. Unknowingly to the Germans the four destroyers are being covered by Glorious.
On-board the light cruiser Nurnburg at 32 knots the crew are preparing for action with the Royal Navy. Unknowingly to the Germans the four destroyers are being covered by Glorious.
True .. but as our author has reminded us, even in as early as 1940, Station X was more than just the several teams working on Enigma.
As I wrote in the post you quoted, personally I don't think a major code break is needed to confirm that a large number of prisoners are on Altmark.
Perhaps it's just chance that "300" is so close to the actual number 🤨
The final battle for the Altmark pt 1
With the dead of both sides buried and the Altmark crew now having to be released into Norwegian custody at their behest, HMS Cossack and the three other destroyers are asked to leave Norwegian waters. The crew of the German tanker are put back on board and asked to leave as well. They will be allowed to leave two hours after the RN has departed.
Seventy-five miles away and under a heavy cloud bank HMS Glorious and her escorts Belfast and Edinburgh slowly manoeuvres at 18 knots are advised that the Altmark crew are back oonboard and sailing back to Germany. The Admiralty orders that the tanker is to be sunk as soon as they are out of the Norwegian waters. A strike of Skua dive-bombers and Swordfish torpedo bombers in one wave is expected to be enough to sink her.
Seventy-five miles away and under a heavy cloud bank HMS Glorious and her escorts Belfast and Edinburgh slowly manoeuvres at 18 knots are advised that the Altmark crew are back oonboard and sailing back to Germany. The Admiralty orders that the tanker is to be sunk as soon as they are out of the Norwegian waters. A strike of Skua dive-bombers and Swordfish torpedo bombers in one wave is expected to be enough to sink her.
The final battle for the Altmark pt 2
With the Altmark now out of the Norwegian waters and KMS Nurnburg fifty miles away from the tanker, HMS Glorious turns into the wind and launches twelve Swordfish and ten Skua with eight Goshawks as escort. Onboard Nurnburg the Arado 196B is launched on a eighty mile scouting mission. Captain Vian Onboard Cossack decides to shadow Altmark incase the airstrike doesn't sink the German tanker.
Four Me-110 heavy fighters which took off from an airfield outside of Kiel to act as cover for the Altmark and Nurnburg.
Four Me-110 heavy fighters which took off from an airfield outside of Kiel to act as cover for the Altmark and Nurnburg.
The final battle for the Altmark pt 3
With the Altmark now out of Norwegian waters and heading south at 12 knots and unknowingly being watched by a Sunderland flying boat which is relaying the modified tankers course and speed to both Glorious and Cossack. The four ME-110 find the lumbering flying boat with three circling just out of range of the numerous 7.7 mm machine guns, While the leader moves behind the Sunderland.
Unfortunately for the ME-110 the eight Goshawks from Glorious that are escorting the strike jump the twin engined heavy fighters. The fighter that was manoeuvring to shoot down the flying boat disintegrates under a hail of 20mm cannon shells from a Goshawk diving from twelve thousand feet. The three remaining fighters break from the Sunderland flying boat and climb to intercept the Goshawks. Unfortunately for the German's seven thousand feet below them the ten Skua are closing in the Altmark.
The Swordfish split into flights of three each and unseen by both the fighters and the crew of the German tanker close to 1800 yards and send six 18in torpedoes towards the Altmark.
Unfortunately for the ME-110 the eight Goshawks from Glorious that are escorting the strike jump the twin engined heavy fighters. The fighter that was manoeuvring to shoot down the flying boat disintegrates under a hail of 20mm cannon shells from a Goshawk diving from twelve thousand feet. The three remaining fighters break from the Sunderland flying boat and climb to intercept the Goshawks. Unfortunately for the German's seven thousand feet below them the ten Skua are closing in the Altmark.
The Swordfish split into flights of three each and unseen by both the fighters and the crew of the German tanker close to 1800 yards and send six 18in torpedoes towards the Altmark.
The final battle for the Altmark pt 4
The Arado 196b float plane from the Nurnburg on it's eighty mile scouting mission spots the Altmark coming under fire from the Swordfish and increases speed to try and split one section of the torpedo bombers. The Altmark has no chance at twelve knots and unable to turn fast enough to evade all six fish. Four fish hit two on the port and one on the starboard side ripping massive holes in the converted tanker. The fourth fish hits near the main fuel tanks which still contains twenty five tonnes of diesel fuel rupturing the tanks. Unfortunately for the Altmarks crew which is undisciplined and a untidy vessel with electric wires exposed. One of these exposed wires shorts sending sparks flying.
Captain Dau knowing that he still has oil onboard shouts abandon ship. As oil that has been leaking out of the tank catches fire and spreads rapidly. Within minutes an all mighty explosion lifts the converted tanker out of the water killing captain Dau and thirty of the crew instantly. Two of the Swordfish that were about to launch their torpedoes are knocked into the water by the shockwave killing both pilots and injuring the four other crew members.
Captain Dau knowing that he still has oil onboard shouts abandon ship. As oil that has been leaking out of the tank catches fire and spreads rapidly. Within minutes an all mighty explosion lifts the converted tanker out of the water killing captain Dau and thirty of the crew instantly. Two of the Swordfish that were about to launch their torpedoes are knocked into the water by the shockwave killing both pilots and injuring the four other crew members.
The final battle for the Altmark pt 5
With the Altmark blown up and most of the crew in the cold water of the North Sea looking up at the dogfight between the Luftwaffe and the FAA. Two of the ME-110 try and dive to escape the eight Goshawks four 20mm cannon. The third trys to get into a turning fight with a Goshawk piloted by Lt George Henry Jones of 804 Squadron. Lt Jones who has had tactics drilled into him and his squadron mates about how to use the Goshawk effectively by commander William *Bill* Bruen. Jones instead of getting into a dogfight with the German breaks left and climbs up and behind the heavy fighter. The pilot of the ME-110 desperately looking for Jones breaks right to try and find the Goshawk instead finds Commander Bruen making a head on pass with all four cannon blazing at 300 yards. Bruen sends the German down in flames.
The light cruiser Arathusa who was returning from Hull to Scapa Flow is diverted to pick up survivors from the Altmark. U-25 who was watching the battle can't believe their luck as the cruiser slows down to try and bring on some of the surviving crew for the Altmark. The submerged Uboat fires two torpedoes at the now slow cruiser. Both torps hit and ripping a big hole in the cruiser. U-25 surfaces to try and take some of the surviving crew from the Altmark.
The Skua dive-bombers who until that point had no target decide to try and sink the surfaced Uboat. The leader of the Skua sends off a message *SSS* the message is picked up on Cossack who was shadowing the German tanker.
The light cruiser Arathusa who was returning from Hull to Scapa Flow is diverted to pick up survivors from the Altmark. U-25 who was watching the battle can't believe their luck as the cruiser slows down to try and bring on some of the surviving crew for the Altmark. The submerged Uboat fires two torpedoes at the now slow cruiser. Both torps hit and ripping a big hole in the cruiser. U-25 surfaces to try and take some of the surviving crew from the Altmark.
The Skua dive-bombers who until that point had no target decide to try and sink the surfaced Uboat. The leader of the Skua sends off a message *SSS* the message is picked up on Cossack who was shadowing the German tanker.
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The final battle for the Altmark pt 6
With the Arathusa dead in the water and slowly sinking, The captain sends off a message that his ship has been torpedoed and the crew of the German tanker is still in the water. The Skuas who are armed with anti-ship weapons not anti-submarine weapons decide to try and sink the surfaced Uboat. The lead Skua dives from four thousand feet and releases it's 500lb AP bomb, which misses by forty-five yards scaring the Uboat to crash dive to escape the dive-bombers.
HMS Hood which is being escorted by four destroyers for a small refit is ordered to converge on the light cruiser and the Altmark survivors who are starting to go into shock. The submarine sighting is passed to the flagship and Admiral Holland on board Hood asks for six Goshawks as cover for his ship along with six Swordfish loaded with ASW to drive the submerged Uboat deep while they pick up survivors from both ships.
HMS Hood which is being escorted by four destroyers for a small refit is ordered to converge on the light cruiser and the Altmark survivors who are starting to go into shock. The submarine sighting is passed to the flagship and Admiral Holland on board Hood asks for six Goshawks as cover for his ship along with six Swordfish loaded with ASW to drive the submerged Uboat deep while they pick up survivors from both ships.
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It's going to get worse before both sides pull back and bury their dead
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Skirmish in the bight pt1
With Nurnburg closing in the Altmark survivors and the crippled light cruiser Arathusa the remaining nine Skuas return to the carrier due to low fuel. A strike of Swordfish that was with the Skuas and Goshawks return to Glorious to rearm and refuel for a anti submarine strike.
The carrier Ark Royal who was to leave for Gibraltar from Scapa Flow with six destroyers and the light cruisers Newcastle and Manchester are sent to cover Hood. With the impromptu battlegroup out of British waters and heading east at 32 knots.
Onboard Ark Royal twelve Goshawks are being prepared and armed to cover Hood . Also being prepared are the first Autogyro to be sent to sea by the Royal Navy. The Cierva C.40 which only went to testing in early 1938 and was to be tested in the calmer seas of the Mediterranean. It is hoped that they can be used as a scouting force and to maximise the amount of aircraft available for carrier strikes at the enemy.
The first C.40 powered by a Bristol Jupiter engine VIFM rated at 440 horse power and giving a range of 285 miles and a maximum range of 330 miles at a cruising speed of 145 mph.
Four Goshawks are launched from Ark Royal on a combat air patrol over the impromptu battlegroup. Another eight are kept back to reinforce the aircraft on CAP while the twelve Goshawks are sent southeast at maximum speed to cover Hood and the Destroyers.
The carrier Ark Royal who was to leave for Gibraltar from Scapa Flow with six destroyers and the light cruisers Newcastle and Manchester are sent to cover Hood. With the impromptu battlegroup out of British waters and heading east at 32 knots.
Onboard Ark Royal twelve Goshawks are being prepared and armed to cover Hood . Also being prepared are the first Autogyro to be sent to sea by the Royal Navy. The Cierva C.40 which only went to testing in early 1938 and was to be tested in the calmer seas of the Mediterranean. It is hoped that they can be used as a scouting force and to maximise the amount of aircraft available for carrier strikes at the enemy.
The first C.40 powered by a Bristol Jupiter engine VIFM rated at 440 horse power and giving a range of 285 miles and a maximum range of 330 miles at a cruising speed of 145 mph.
Four Goshawks are launched from Ark Royal on a combat air patrol over the impromptu battlegroup. Another eight are kept back to reinforce the aircraft on CAP while the twelve Goshawks are sent southeast at maximum speed to cover Hood and the Destroyers.
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