AHC/WI: An alternative Elitist religion for Medieval Europe?

[alter]

So let's imagine that for some reason both Christianity and Paganism die out in Early Medieval Europe, and a new religion, with some relation to Manichaeism and Gnosticism comes to be dominant in Europe after the 3rd Century CE.

In this religion, there is a whole Priestly caste called the "Elect" who hold ceremonies which Catholics would distantly recognize as "Masses" in a church, which a lower caste of people called the "Believers" attend to worship God.

There is no institution akin to Catholicism's celibacy, so members of the Elect simply descend from previous Elect families.

The Elect are promised eternal life after death, and the Believers are promised nothing, just the vague hope that they get to live for another day, before they cease to exist after death.

A conversation that could happen between an Elect priest, and a Believer commoner:

Believer: "So, you, as a member of the Elect adhere to the religion, and as such, God will give you life after death, a way to exist after this material shell of yours gives up."
Priest: "Yes."
B: "And I, as a Commoner will cease to exist after I die."
P: "Yes."
B: "Then why should I attend daily Masses, worship God, and pay taxes to you and other members of the Elect?"
P: "You little piece of shit, have you ever wondered why you ever get to get up every morning and live another day? Why your wife and children can survive? Imagine that you don't attend Mass. Next day, a beam on the roof of your house could snap while you are standing below it and cause your nasty death. You could contract Leprosy. Your male member could shrivel up and fall off, when you are preparing to mate with your wife. The wolf, or a robber could take away your children. Have these happened yet? No? Well these didn't happen yet because as of yet you have faithfully attended Mass and paid taxes to the Church. Imagine what would happen if you didn't. Leprosy is a nasty death, and impotence is a nasty way to live, especially with a wife."


Would a religion like this be possible to become widespread in Europe? What would be the implications of it in future centuries?

 

[lumina]

Something that promises more to the commoners would probably eventually appear and spread.

 

[Philip]

How does this religion come to be dominant?

 

[The Professor]

A 2 caste system is incredibly unstable. It will either evolve into several castes with laws regulating who is born into what caste depending on each parent, or it will collapse with overpopulation of the upper class straining support or underpopulation unable to resist rebellion.

 

[cmakk1012]

Context probably matters here. How did paganism and Christianity die out? Paganism was somewhat “transmuted” into Christianity by the institution of the Roman Church with traditions like saints and clergical organization adapted from the previous religious and societal structure. This religion would likely need to do the same to be successful.

The lack of appeal to commoners really means the long-term stability of the faith is lacking. Honestly, this sounds to me like a foreign faith brought in by conquest, with the ruling class comprised of the foreigners. In that specific situation I’d expect a rebellion to eventually restore native rule.

 

[alter]

The main tenet of this religion would be that it would offer nothing for common people after death, just the chance to continue on with their lives with no misfortunes. They would survive, be able to father children, and not contract deadly diseases. However if they stray from it, e.g they don't attend worship or don't pay church taxes, horrible things would happen to them ranging from their house collapsing onto their own heads to not being able to reproduce, to their children dying. There would be no rewards for the faithful, only punishments for the unfaithful. The "rewards" of the faithful would be that they could continue living their lives with no supernatural punishments.

 

[Kirook]

The main tenet of this religion would be that it would offer nothing for common people after death, just the chance to continue on with their lives with no misfortunes. They would survive, be able to father children, and not contract deadly diseases. However if they stray from it, e.g they don't attend worship or don't pay church taxes, horrible things would happen to them ranging from their house collapsing onto their own heads to not being able to reproduce, to their children dying. There would be no rewards for the faithful, only punishments for the unfaithful. The "rewards" of the faithful would be that they could continue living their lives with no supernatural punishments.

Okay, but eventually some other faith will show up and say, “Hey, our god(s) will actually reward you for believing in him/her/them”, and some people will convert, and some of those people will live long and happy lives (as much as is possible for a medieval peasant), and then people will start to wonder where the divine retribution they were supposed to be avoiding was.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Okay, but eventually some other faith will show up and say, “Hey, our god(s) will actually reward you for believing in him/her/them”, and some people will convert, and some of those people will live long and happy lives (as much as is possible for a medieval peasant), and then people will start to wonder where the divine retribution they were supposed to be avoiding was.

Hell, how did the faith get enough people to convert to it in the first place for said mass of medieval peasents to even need convincing? You'd need to have people who, until now, HAVEN'T been experiencing the promised divine backlash for their actions, nor seen the people around them suffering so, or the Elite somehow avoiding reasonably similar rates of said suffering, and against all this evidence engrain a belief in its existance deeply enough that they'll faithfully teach it to their children.

 

[Roger II]

Hm reincarnation instead?

 

[Hvalrossen]

So let's imagine that for some reason both Christianity and Paganism die out in Early Medieval Europe, and a new religion, with some relation to Manichaeism and Gnosticism comes to be dominant in Europe after the 3rd Century CE.

In this religion, there is a whole Priestly caste called the "Elect" who hold ceremonies which Catholics would distantly recognize as "Masses" in a church, which a lower caste of people called the "Believers" attend to worship God.

There is no institution akin to Catholicism's celibacy, so members of the Elect simply descend from previous Elect families.

The Elect are promised eternal life after death, and the Believers are promised nothing, just the vague hope that they get to live for another day, before they cease to exist after death.

A conversation that could happen between an Elect priest, and a Believer commoner:

Believer: "So, you, as a member of the Elect adhere to the religion, and as such, God will give you life after death, a way to exist after this material shell of yours gives up."
Priest: "Yes."
B: "And I, as a Commoner will cease to exist after I die."
P: "Yes."
B: "Then why should I attend daily Masses, worship God, and pay taxes to you and other members of the Elect?"
P: "You little piece of shit, have you ever wondered why you ever get to get up every morning and live another day? Why your wife and children can survive? Imagine that you don't attend Mass. Next day, a beam on the roof of your house could snap while you are standing below it and cause your nasty death. You could contract Leprosy. Your male member could shrivel up and fall off, when you are preparing to mate with your wife. The wolf, or a robber could take away your children. Have these happened yet? No? Well these didn't happen yet because as of yet you have faithfully attended Mass and paid taxes to the Church. Imagine what would happen if you didn't. Leprosy is a nasty death, and impotence is a nasty way to live, especially with a wife."


Would a religion like this be possible to become widespread in Europe? What would be the implications of it in future centuries?

Funny conversation between the priest and believer. The priest is brutally bashing the believer. Is this kind of relationship stable, or will it spiral into conflict? Also what kind of services does the priest and the church offer the believers?

What was that led to this elitist religion forming? Where does it have its roots? Does this relgion have concepts that do not exist in OTL? What was the material conditions in which this relgion formed?

Maybe during the fall of the roman empire, and its conquest by barbarians. The new elitist relgion could form as a caste system seperating the barbarian conquerors from the conquered subjects? A system with different laws, rights and duties between the different castes.

Anyway this topic was intresting.

 

[Hvalrossen]

The main tenet of this religion would be that it would offer nothing for common people after death, just the chance to continue on with their lives with no misfortunes. They would survive, be able to father children, and not contract deadly diseases. However if they stray from it, e.g they don't attend worship or don't pay church taxes, horrible things would happen to them ranging from their house collapsing onto their own heads to not being able to reproduce, to their children dying. There would be no rewards for the faithful, only punishments for the unfaithful. The "rewards" of the faithful would be that they could continue living their lives with no supernatural punishments.

How would the priests of this religion explain it, if people from another relgion are more succesfull than this elitist relgions followers?

 

[Hvalrossen]

A 2 caste system is incredibly unstable. It will either evolve into several castes with laws regulating who is born into what caste depending on each parent, or it will collapse with overpopulation of the upper class straining support or underpopulation unable to resist rebellion.

Why is a caste system with multiple castes more stable than one with less castes?

Could we call the division into commoners and nobles, a caste system?

 

[The Professor]

Why is a caste system with multiple castes more stable than one with less castes?

Because multiple castes tends to provide some element of movement from one to the other, safety valves if you will.
With a 2 caste only system and lack of movement between you end up with issues when one population is much greater than the other.

Could we call the division into commoners and nobles, a caste system?

If there was no movement between them then yes. I should point out there's a distinct lack of such a bipartite society in history due to creation of mercantile middle classes that mix the commons and gentry, priesthoods that allow commoners to rise in rank, etc.

 

[Hvalrossen]

Because multiple castes tends to provide some element of movement from one to the other, safety valves if you will.
With a 2 caste only system and lack of movement between you end up with issues when one population is much greater than the other.


If there was no movement between them then yes. I should point out there's a distinct lack of such a bipartite society in history due to creation of mercantile middle classes that mix the commons and gentry, priesthoods that allow commoners to rise in rank, etc.

Another factor affecting the stability of a caste system, might be how easy it is to organise resistance. If you have many castes, how do you unite them?

 

[The Professor]

Another factor affecting the stability of a caste system, might be how easy it is to organise resistance. I you have many castes, how do you unite them?

Indeed, many castes makes a caste system more stable.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Isn't the point of Gnosticism that you want to not exist after you die, given the inferiority of the material world to the spiritual world?

 

[alter]

Isn't the point of Gnosticism that you want to not exist after you die, given the inferiority of the material world to the spiritual world?

That is more like the final goal of Buddhism. In Manichaeism and a lot of other Gnostic religions, the Material World is Evil, created entirely by Satan, or a Demiurge, a Trickster God, while the Spiritual World is Good created by the true God. After death, you would be able to shed all of your material sins, and live an eternal blissful life in the Spiritual World with God.

Authors of New Testament Apocryphal texts, like the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary had similar ideas, bringing forth the idea that the God of the Old Testament was a Demiurge or maybe even Satan, and it was Jesus through which the true loving and virtuous God would finally emerge. Since the World was a creation of a Demiurge, people should strive to become pure spiritual beings after death, to finally be united with the one true God, who is Good.

In Manichaeism, there was a strict separation between common believers who led Earthly lives, and the ascetic Elect, who acted as priests. This is described in the Gospel of Mani, and later historical texts about the religion, before it died out.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

The Elect are promised eternal life after death, and the Believers are promised nothing, just the vague hope that they get to live for another day, before they cease to exist after death.

So cue in not-Christianity in a few years.

 

[Paul Spring]

I would think this religion would be pretty unstable, with lots of revolts and "heretical" movements that promised eternal life to at least some of the commoners. In OTL the monotheistic religions basically got people to agree to great inequality in this world by promising that one's destination in the next world would depend on faith and/or deeds, rather than family or wealth. Buddhism promised a relief from suffering no matter what one's social status if one followed the right teachings. Hinduism promised better future lives for those who did the right thing in their current life. This religion would explicitly tie one's fate to their status in this life. I think it could exist, but it would face a lot of hostility and challenge.

 

[The Professor]

Another way to make this system more stable is to add a third caste that doesn't get eternal life but the possibility of reincarnation into the Elect.
This third caste can then be composed of worthy Believers, and perhaps not fully disgraced Elect.