AHC: Successfull Op. Sealion

I doubt that this is doable without exceeding the limitations of the London Naval Treaty between Germany and Britain. The British had carefully crafted that specifically in order to push the German building program towards a balanced fleet, which they thought would be easier for the Royal Navy to fight. So what you are suggesting was exactly perceived as a threat by the British Admiralty.
You are aware of the contents of that treaty, aren't you?

I did go reread it at your prompting. That's obviously an obstacle, but I do think it would be easier to cheat with building extra torpedo boats than with starting the carriers and battleships early enough for Sea Lion.

Regardless of that, the Germans IOTL built their surface fleet around the idea of commerce raiding, and if they'd known they were planning for Sea Lion back in '33 or '35, they could've designed ships better suited to stand-up fights than raiding.
 
1) Which of these things are beyond the Germans with almost 300% of the planning time?
2) I will not attempt to argue with you since your mind is clearly closed on this issue.
3) And cargo ships are unavailable why?

I am beginning to understand the mindset here.

Well number 1 thing unavailable to Germany given the timeframe is experience and understanding of any thing maritime. Especially amphibious operations. Number two is industrial capacity needed to equip and deploy naval forces sufficient to successfully conduct operation of Sealion scope. Number three is the singleminded attention and will to do the operation. Sealion was nothing more than a gigantic bluff to make Britain surrender. Germans never did plan to get into situation where invasion of Britain was necessary. They found them in that situation as a consequence of incredible luck.
 
I did go reread it at your prompting. That's obviously an obstacle,

Yes.

but I do think it would be easier to cheat with building extra torpedo boats than with starting the carriers and battleships early enough for Sea Lion.

torpedo boats are easier; I have my doubts about destroyers, though. There is the issue of yard space, that not only constrains the German building program but also makes it easier for the British to keep tabs on it.

Regardless of that, the Germans IOTL built their surface fleet around the idea of commerce raiding, and if they'd known they were planning for Sea Lion back in '33 or '35, they could've designed ships better suited to stand-up fights than raiding.

Maybe I don't understand, but this sounds in direct contradiction with your proposal above. Ships suited to stand-up fights means heavy-weights. Especially in a 1933-era mindframe. Or what do you mean by that?
 
I meant by saying, if they do have to build a balanced fleet, they can at least build one better suited to a stand-up fight than to commerce raiding.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
If you give the Germans 20/20 hindsight a few years in advance, that would be enough for them to have a chance at success. No guarantees, but if they come prepared with longer ranged fighters, proper landing craft, a few dedicated marine divisions, a navy that focused more on well-armed destroyers, E-boats, and U-boats than the cruisers and battleships, Japanese-style torpedo bombers and tactics, etc, they'll at least have a decent shot at it. It will be a close-run thing no matter what.

I think it's possible for Germany to prepare itself in such a way without crippling itself for the land wars in France and elsewhere. If they decided to prepare for it by some form of Plan Z, that would obviously take enough resources to handicap the army significantly, and would definitely antagonize Britain. Building the navy of smaller ships would come across as less intimidating, since it looks more like a Baltic fleet than one that will challenge the RN at sea.

Largely agreed, if the military command benefit from 20/20 hindsight, it is possible to win, but far from certain. If Hitler had not tried to invade Norway, I am sure many historians would say the Norway operation WHILE preparing for an attack on France would never work. But in war, strange things sometimes do work, and long-shots do payoff. After all, it was a fairly low ranking artillery commander that almost lead France to conquering Europe and building a lasting empire. If Napoleon had been shot and killed early in the war, no one would have looked at his resume and said this is one of the greatest land Generals in history who happened to be shot before he took over a major command. All it would really take is one naval leader who Hitler would listen to who was a quality leader. I suspect a Admiral such as Halsey, Nimitz, or Yamamoto could have prepared a plausible plan starting with resources available to the German Navy in 1936. The only POD required is finding some Brilliant leader in the ranks of the Navy. Below is my list of relatively cheap improvements to the German amphibious command from low cost to higher costs.

1) Have a team of 3 to 6 field grade naval officers actually contingency plan for this operation in 1936. A lot of problems that are hard to solve at the last minute are easy to solve earlier on. (Almost zero marginal costs)
2) Test the U-boat pre-war at realistic (full) operating depths. Many U-boats had to go in for overhauls to fix minor issues at the start of the war. (Actually negative marginal costs since many subs will be built right the first time instead of having to have a major overhaul after construction)
3) Instead of just working with the Soviets training new Luftwaffe pilots, have a small cadre train with the Japanese Naval aviators. (Low marginal costs, how much does training 40 pilots at Japanese naval schools cost?)
4) Develop pro-type landing craft complete with blue prints. Develop a plan for crash production of enough to make the plan developed in step 1. (Low marginal costs)
5) Realistically test the torpedoes, and fix the flaw in the detonator pre-war. (Low marginal costs, this involves a design and testing team doing there job correctly.)
6) Develop better Naval codes. (Moderate costs, because it would have to be developed and deployed fleet wide, but dirt cheap compared to losing ships or building a battleship.)
7) Instead of developing all the torpedoes and naval planes from scratch, but the equipment from Japan. While the Germans may or may not have had trouble sinking capital ships with air power, the Japanese did not. (Moderate costs)
8) Designate either one division or one corp to receive introductory amphibious training. Having the regimental, divisional, and corp level officers study issues related to amphibious warfare pre-war improves capabilities. (Moderate costs, but this training might reduce the effectiveness of these divisions in France due to opportunity costs.)

People like to focus on only on England, but Germany would have benefit from better amphibious options in Norway, Crete, Malta, Gibraltar, and possibly the invasion of Russia. A small invested in better amphibious operations would make the British High commands life much harder. None of these are the magic bullet, but some preparation for amphibious operations would have made sense and been cheap, or in some cases almost free. I do agree that if the POD is post-France surrenders, it is very hard to impossible to then throw together a major amphibious operation against one of the strongest Navies in the world.

If all of these had been done, then the situation looks much better for the Germans. Instead of lets do this ad hoc, they have a well prepared planned to discuss, and will be able to determine if it is really possible or not. The British will have lost a lot more ships due to more subs, better torpedoes, and less intelligence, including some additional capital ships. The Germans also had a landing force that does not have to start training up from square 1.

So in one sentence. Sea Lion is almost impossible if the POD is in mid 1940, but becomes possible but hard if the POD is a few years before.
 
For a post 1914 PoD, is it possible for Germany to force a draw at Jutland or even sneak a couple of ships past the British?
 
*snip*

I do agree that if the POD is post-France surrenders, it is very hard to impossible to then throw together a major amphibious operation against one of the strongest Navies in the world.

So in one sentence. Sea Lion is almost impossible if the POD is in mid 1940, but becomes possible but hard if the POD is a few years before.

Yes, all you said is true, and could possibly work given amount of luck a tad bit greater than what Germans had in Norway. The greatest flaw in this is that up till 1939 Germans never seriously planned to get into conflict with Britain. Or at least not in such conflict as to require actual invasion of British Isles, so any planning, training and preparation for such an operation would be seen as detrimental from POV of German high command. Such planning would require Hitler to abandon any hope of achieving peace with Britain.

German pre-war conception was to if worse comes to worst fight and defeat Allies on the continent and force them to concede to reality and leave Germany alone. They never expected that Britain would remain defiant after France fell and after being offered what they considered to be reasonable peace terms. Once they found themselves in this predicament they cobbled together what passed as plan in hopes to frighten British. Once this failed they just said 'Oh, what the hell, let's beat Russians and next year we wil think what to do about British. It is not like they can invade us, right?'

Oh, yeah and regarding codes. One does not usually tend to improve something one considers to have reached practical finality.
 

Flubber

Banned
Have any of you seriously posting in this thread read the Sealion sticky? You know, the one permanently at the top of this very forum?

None, as in NONE, of the "ideas" any of you have suggested, refuted, or toyed with in this thread are in any way new. Every idea here is just a rehashing, and a rather lame rehashing, of the ideas in threads which occurred years ago.

Quit reinventing the wheel, especially when your "ideas" don't even approach the older ones. There's a reason a Sealion sticky exists in the first place.
 
Have any of you seriously posting in this thread read the Sealion sticky? You know, the one permanently at the top of this very forum?

None, as in NONE, of the "ideas" any of you have suggested, refuted, or toyed with in this thread are in any way new. Every idea here is just a rehashing, and a rather lame rehashing, of the ideas in threads which occurred years ago.

Quit reinventing the wheel, especially when your "ideas" don't even approach the older ones. There's a reason a Sealion sticky exists in the first place.

Especially when its a square wheel.....:rolleyes:

But as he said, ALL the ideas mentioned have been suggested and shot down in flames before. For excellent reasons.
There was a reason the SeaLion thread was made sticky...
 

Sandman396

Banned
Have any of you seriously posting in this thread read the Sealion sticky? You know, the one permanently at the top of this very forum?

None, as in NONE, of the "ideas" any of you have suggested, refuted, or toyed with in this thread are in any way new. Every idea here is just a rehashing, and a rather lame rehashing, of the ideas in threads which occurred years ago.

Quit reinventing the wheel, especially when your "ideas" don't even approach the older ones. There's a reason a Sealion sticky exists in the first place.

Congrats on being appointed a mod.
 
Especially when its a square wheel.....:rolleyes:

But as he said, ALL the ideas mentioned have been suggested and shot down in flames before. For excellent reasons.
There was a reason the SeaLion thread was made sticky...

Then isn't it about time we call upon the Alien Space Bat gods to provide us with one solid invasion strategy for this? ;)
 

Flubber

Banned
Congrats on being appointed a mod.


If I were a mod, this thread would have been locked, the trolling OP kicked for a week, and those members seriously responding to the troll would have had their collective noses rubbed in the Sealion Sticky.

This topic has a sticky for a reason and nothing suggested here hasn't already been suggested, examined, and refuted multiple times.

Read the sticky. Believe the sticky.
 
If I were a mod, this thread would have been locked, the trolling OP kicked for a week, and those members seriously responding to the troll would have had their collective noses rubbed in the Sealion Sticky.

This topic has a sticky for a reason and nothing suggested here hasn't already been suggested, examined, and refuted multiple times.

Read the sticky. Believe the sticky.

Sorry for starting this up. :(
 
Don't beat yourself up too badly, anyone who's been here longer than a month has seen this thread come up dozens of times, and they're all sick of it. Flubber's just expressing it by being a jackass in the hopes of making an impression.
 
Have any of you read the book 10 ways to win WWII

The first scenario involves Hitler joining the navy instead of the military during WWI, his racist anger is eventually turned more against the Victorians more than the Jews and therefore fundamentally change the Third Reich,
he destroy the British RAF and Navy in September 1939.

The Second Scenario sees your classic Dunkirk scene (except Churchill dose not become P.M which Sealion is successful not because of the Germans (they are at first defeated) but the incompetence of the Chamberlain the House of Commons surrenders to the Germans.
 
Don't beat yourself up too badly, anyone who's been here longer than a month has seen this thread come up dozens of times, and they're all sick of it. Flubber's just expressing it by being a jackass in the hopes of making an impression.

I see.... Well for him to be criticizing us I don't see him giving any solutions.
 
Don't beat yourself up too badly, anyone who's been here longer than a month has seen this thread come up dozens of times, and they're all sick of it. Flubber's just expressing it by being a jackass in the hopes of making an impression.

What I find amusing is that Flubber is one of our newer members. I don't disagree with his general message, but really.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
I see.... Well for him to be criticizing us I don't see him giving any solutions.

That's because there ARE no solutions that do not involve 20/20 hindsight, a sane and rather brilliant Hitler (which, BTW, would eliminate the entire war until 1944 or later) AND a UK ruled by a pack of baby fur seals.

The entire concept of Sealion has been disproved so many times, by so many people (including actual Honest to God professional military officers and historians) that it has literally become a running gag here.

It is logistically impossible for the Reich to produce the required naval force, amphibious force and support force AND produce the equipment needed to defeat France, win the Battle of Britain and have forces available to deal with a Western (or Soviet) attack.
 
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