AHC: Successfull Op. Sealion
- Thread starter Geomec
- Start date
I know this is a sore spot but, I want a successful Operation Sealion PoD after Hitler becomes chancellor. Have fun!
P.S. Don't rip me apart for this.
Your just asking for it now friend. Suggestion, abandon this idea. FAST!
I know this is a sore spot but, I want a successful Operation Sealion PoD after Hitler becomes chancellor. Have fun
P.S. Don't rip me apart for this.
1) Don't spend resources attacking Russia.
2) Choose a plan of air attack and stick with it. (bombing London is pointless, mkay?)
3) Destroy the RAF - that's what counts.
4) Don't attack Russia (That obviously wasn't said often enough OTL, apparently.
)5) Drive the RN out of the Channel via air attack after air superiority is achieved.
6) Invade.
Invading England was something that Germany HAD to do to win the war, and they were not without the resources to achieve it, but they planned poorly, executed poorly and seemed incapable of focusing on one strategy.
It couldn't have been done in a month of sundays, the Navy was tiny and landing craft non existent, by the time these two problems had been solved, Britain's defence build up would have made an invasion impossible anyway.
So was the area that had to be controlled to force an invasion. If they had accomplished air control, they stood a chance.
But they aren't hard to build. Call it an example of the Germans' failure to execute.
Now mind you, I'm not sitting here saying that the Germans would have won. But the invasion, if better planned and executed, was quite plausible. It failed for a series of reasons that were all the fault of Germany, so we never got to see the test of history. Good thing, that.
To be fair, the PoD is anytime after Hitler becomes chancellor so we've got conservatively 7 years of preparation time to make Sealion a possibility. With that much of a delay there could be very different circumstances. Say for instance both Hitler and Stalin are killed, being replaced by individuals more willing to ally with each other, WW2 is delayed by a few years and then Operation Sealion is launched in 1943 or 1945 with a much larger Kriegsmarine and much more capable Luftwaffe.
Basically I'm saying that yes the Operation Sealion is ASB but an Operation Sealion, i.e. the invasion of Great Britain by Nazi Germany is not. Also I seem to recall some TL based on using that 7 buildup to give the Nazis a decent go of it.
Basically I'm saying that yes the Operation Sealion is ASB but an Operation Sealion, i.e. the invasion of Great Britain by Nazi Germany is not. Also I seem to recall some TL based on using that 7 buildup to give the Nazis a decent go of it.
One supposes the British do not notice that the Germans are building landing ships for years and years, correct?
That's more or less my point. As mis-planned and bungled by the Germans OTL, it was never going to happen. But the resources existed for a realistic operation, had they been managed properly.
Red: The RN without air cover isn't staying in the Channel for long. WW2 is rife with examples of what happens to surface warships that face hostile air power without cover.
But the point is Germany does not have infinite resources and production capacity. They cannot simultaneously prepare for Sea mammal and create the fleet necessary to carry it out AND have enough forces to defeat France and get in position to execute said Sea mammal. Something gotta give. Besides, ignoring an elephant in the room in form of Soviet Union is, to put it mildly, ill advised.
Poking it with a stick didn't work out so well for them, either.Besides, ignoring an elephant in the room in form of Soviet Union is, to put it mildly, ill advised.
He said: After Hitler gets chancellor, not after he started the war.
Hitler wanted Great Britain as an alley, as they were Germanic and nordic people aswell (well, partly).
So, have the English facists fare better, get more racesism into british society - the fascist party existed in Engliand, they coiuld have done better.
So a operation sealion would be a contingent of german soldiers and tanks beeing INVITED into england in order to help the ebnglish people to defend thier island against the US!
Hitler wanted Great Britain as an alley, as they were Germanic and nordic people aswell (well, partly).
So, have the English facists fare better, get more racesism into british society - the fascist party existed in Engliand, they coiuld have done better.
So a operation sealion would be a contingent of german soldiers and tanks beeing INVITED into england in order to help the ebnglish people to defend thier island against the US!
The RN doesn't have to stay in the Channel long, one pass while those converted barges are there and it's over, the Luftwaffe can't keep up any sort of decent supply chain, and the Germans aren't taking Dover on what they can land in the first wave. Also, you don't actually have the aircraft to spare, unless you want to give Britain a chance to rebuild the RAF.
Poking it with a stick achieved a better result than ignoring it for another year would have done, and even ignoring it and standardising industrial production would have had a better outcome than ignoring it and bloodying their forces in a hopeless bloodbath of an invasion.
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No.
First, not all hostile air power is created equal. When the Repulse and the Prince of Wales were sunk, they were sunk by a hostile air power that was specifically trained and equipped to do that. The Luftwaffe wasn't that air power in 1940. It might become that air power given enough time to prepare - which will give enough time to the British for countermeasures.
Also note that the Prince of Wales or the Yamato were sunk, the air power had complete air supermacy - not just air superiority. To get that over the Channel, one has to erase Fighter Command first.
Second, the Royal Navy will stay in the Channel for as long as it takes. Assuming it will take 100% casualties, it will do that. That's the reason of its existence, preventing blokes like Napoleon to come over uninvited, by sea. It will not try to save its warships if that means letting the Germans roam through Kent.
Third, assuming such a down-to-100% race, and assuming reasonable loss rates on both sides, the Germans run out of Stukas before the British run out of destroyers. It's as simple as that. Check the numbers. The Germans, given an early enough POD, may have more Stukas. The British (and the rest of Europe) will notice that early on, too.
Fourth, there are no Stukas or Bf 109s over the Channel at night. Nor in bad weather. But if the German invasion force has to be supplied, there are convoys. And there will be the Royal Navy. Which is trained and equipped to fight at night. Heck, they only have to steam by a barge convoy to sunk it in their wake. There is no amount of PODing that will change that, barring ASBs that provide the Luftwaffe with some 10 years of technological head start for all-weather anti-shipping operations.
Fifth, assuming the Germans magically manage to run convoys only in daylight and in good weather, they still need the ports to unload. The Royal Navy can move at dusk, reach Dover, bomb the port facilities to nothingness around midnight for a couple of hours, then be out of Stuka range by dawn. Again, given years from the POD, the Germans may build a super-Stuka with a longer range - and again the other powers will notice that. Besides, if that super-Stuka attacks the Royal Navy far away from the Channel, it will have outranged the historical Bf 109, so it can be slaughtered even by Blenheims. Again, you can also give the Luftwaffe super-109s, so that they have the range to escort the Stukas far up the North Sea. And, again, somebody will notice that early on.
I agree with that. Actually the dream might end with the Sudeten, if the Germans have a big big fleet and a tiny tiny army. The Czechs and French will not fear the tiny tiny army, and the British will fear the big big fleet. No Munich, no nothing.