AHC: Nazi invasion of the USA by 1950

[Christopher Marcus]

Just for shits and giggles, what happens if the KM gets 6 of each BB from H-39 through H-44 (ASB obviously, handwave the budget) and 10 GZs, while the US stomps Japan flat and then begins building up for the inevitable clash with the Nazis?

More specifically, how long does it take for the USN to destroy the bulk of the Kriegsmarine if Hitler, being a man of limited connection to such things as reality and common sense, sends the fleet out to re-fight Jutland in the Atlantic?

Well, the thing about Hitler is that for, I guess, scenario purposes you can make him as crazy as you want - and his underlings cowardly enough to do his bidding, even a glorified Ten Go like this. I think, though, to be fair to the OP we should try to come up with a scenario that seems to give the Reich a reasonable chance of 'winning' such an attack, which is why I thought about the nuclear option. It would likely fail to achieve any meaningful goals vis-a-vis the US, even if the East Coast is devastated, but with some luck and good planning it would not be the glorified disaster of the Luftwaffe attack in AANW. Either way the US survives, and decides to take off the gloves, and we know the rest.

It is difficult, though, because even this scenario is also straying from what the OP had in mind - a conventional attack. And I thought of this because, as has been repeated ad nauseam in this thread, it is ASB for that to happen under any conceivable circumstances by 1950 - and for such an attack to achieve anything (except a lot of extra metal on the Atlantic sea floor).

It's not really doable, I'd say - to make the OP's scenario work. In any way. At least not in "post-1900". Perhaps we can begin to discuss movie scripts instead?

 

[Catsmate]

Though of course in a universe a little to peppermint the Trigonists did invade the USA.

 

[Terran Allias]

Does it count as an invasion of the United States if America annexes the terrirorial possessions of fallen nations like Iceland which later get invaded? That could technically count if Germany invaded American Iceland

 

[SsgtC]

Does it count as an invasion of the United States if America annexes the terrirorial possessions of fallen nations like Iceland which later get invaded? That could technically count if Germany invaded American Iceland

Why would the US and annex Ireland? It was an independent nation and friendly (on the government level) to Nazi Germany

 

[nbcman]

I've never read that whole TL straight through because there's only so many Nazi atrocities I can read about before I get sick, but I'll definitely flip through it again to find that scene!

If you haven’t found it, the battle is here:

The Anglo/American - Nazi War

 

[Luminous]

But it wouldn't be battleships vs battleships, it would be battleships vs. US taskforce with carriers. The battleships never get close enough to fight eachother, because the german ones would already be at the bottom of the ocean before they get close enough.

Well, yes? Of course they would.

It's something that has to be argued in isolate so that the Germans have a chance, see. Sorry about that. Should have been including more [sarc] tags and such.

The only naval arguments can be looked at in isolate, as otherwise once you look at the big picture (the task force/fleet side of things) the whole operation falls apart.

Why would the US and annex Ireland? It was an independent nation and friendly (on the government level) to Nazi Germany

Typically the same reason that it tends to get annexed in Nazi Victory in Europe maps - the US occupies it to provide for an Anti-submarine base so long that it becomes de facto annexation, which eventually turns into real annexation.

You could see an attempt made there, or against US-occupied island chains off the coast of Africa (Azores/Canaries/Cape Verde/etc), occupied precisely so the Germans can't have a forward base. So that could be an option technically

 

[Terran Allias]

Why would the US and annex Ireland? It was an independent nation and friendly (on the government level) to Nazi Germany

I said Iceland, which would be annexed to allow for an island hopping campaign straight to Nazi England.

Well, yes? Of course they would.

It's something that has to be argued in isolate so that the Germans have a chance, see. Sorry about that. Should have been including more [sarc] tags and such.

The only naval arguments can be looked at in isolate, as otherwise once you look at the big picture (the task force/fleet side of things) the whole operation falls apart.



Typically the same reason that it tends to get annexed in Nazi Victory in Europe maps - the US occupies it to provide for an Anti-submarine base so long that it becomes de facto annexation, which eventually turns into real annexation.

You could see an attempt made there, or against US-occupied island chains off the coast of Africa (Azores/Canaries/Cape Verde/etc), occupied precisely so the Germans can't have a forward base. So that could be an option technically

This also applies to Iceland. So expect the opening moves in WW3 to be naval battles in the Arctic ocean so Germany can island hop to Canada.

 

[CV12Hornet]

I wouldn’t be so sure that there won’t be any battleship clashes. The US Navy’s carrier air groups are not going to be fully night and all-weather capable. This means, particularly in the stormy North Atlantic, there are going to be stretches of time when the air groups are functionally grounded on their carriers, in which case the American battleships will be playing a very important role.

And unlike OTL, when the Japanese battle fleet were so many reefs and the Soviets weren’t building anything bigger than a cruiser, here the Germans have a very large and quite fast battle fleet.

 

[wcv215]

I said Iceland, which would be annexed to allow for an island hopping campaign straight to Nazi England.

...okay, so why would the US annex Iceland?

Is it some kind of rule that you have to annex a place to use it as a staging ground for an invasion?

If so I have some bad news for the British.

 

[CalBear]

I've never read that whole TL straight through because there's only so many Nazi atrocities I can read about before I get sick, but I'll definitely flip through it again to find that scene!

It isn't especially in depth, you can only make clubbing baby seals interesting for so long. In my write up the KM has three decks and 25 fighters up as a CAP and the USN throws 600 aircraft at the Nazi force. Takes 60 hours, all the KM gets back is three DD packed to the gunnels with survivors. The U.S. loses one DD to a U-boat while conducting rescue operations while on radar picket duty. That results in the Two Battle Groups withdrawing from the the area once all identifiable Allied survivors are picked up. KM losses are known to exceed 20,000 KIA/MIA.

I wouldn’t be so sure that there won’t be any battleship clashes. The US Navy’s carrier air groups are not going to be fully night and all-weather capable. This means, particularly in the stormy North Atlantic, there are going to be stretches of time when the air groups are functionally grounded on their carriers, in which case the American battleships will be playing a very important role.

And unlike OTL, when the Japanese battle fleet were so many reefs and the Soviets weren’t building anything bigger than a cruiser, here the Germans have a very large and quite fast battle fleet.

By 1950? American forces were far more capable at night than might be imagined. The WAllied battle fleets might well engage with the KM, be a fun scenario to write up, Surigao Straight writ large, but except for the poor souls who wind up dead or maimed, it would be more or less meaningless in the strategic sense.

...okay, so why would the US annex Iceland?

Is it some kind of rule that you have to annex a place to use it as a staging ground for an invasion?

If so I have some bad news for the British.

IOTL the U.S. managed to find an esteemed geological expert who stated that, without question, Iceland was part of the "Western Hemisphere" and hence fell under the Monro Doctrine and Roosevelt Corollary. Informally occupying it, along with Greenland, would match up with OTL's actions (the UK occupied the Faroe Islands, whether the U.S. would replace the British if they surrendered is an interesting question).

 

[Luminous]

IOTL the U.S. managed to find an esteemed geological expert who stated that, without question, Iceland was part of the "Western Hemisphere" and hence fell under the Monro Doctrine and Roosevelt Corollary. Informally occupying it, along with Greenland, would match up with OTL's actions (the UK occupied the Faroe Islands, whether the U.S. would replace the British if they surrendered is an interesting question).

I'm sure the argument would apply to the Azores as well - the Mid Atlantic Ridge runs through them and could be rules lawyered. But by the time we get to that point...

Re the Faroes: They are over 6 degrees west of the Prime Meridian, thus by all technicalities they are in the western hemisphere. As such, perfectly reasonable for the US to replace the UK in occupation duties once the UK withdraws. And the excuse for other occupations...

 

[ExScientiaTridens]

The US might not fight over the Azores or Faroes, but anything closer to home is another story IMO.

I believe Iceland is another story and that the US would move quickly to occupy. Strategically very important. It would be some time before the new KM could mount a counterattack.

It is inconceivable to me that Canada (which remains independent) would tolerate any occupation of the Maritimes by German forces. They would certainly get US support to keep the Germans out if needed IMO.

German occupation of Bermuda? Not a chance. Same for the remainder of the British West Indies. That is simply too large a threat to the Panama Canal and southern shipping routes. I can't imagine even the most ardent isolationists creating significant opposition there. Yes, it would raise the threat of war, but those islands are simply too close to home.

I would apply the same to French possessions in the area. It is unclear how Vichy France (if it still exists) would turn. Interesting to consider the "Free French" at the time of England's surrender. Do they capitulate as well or seek refuge elsewhere? Probably in the US.

 

[CV12Hornet]

By 1950? American forces were far more capable at night than might be imagined. The WAllied battle fleets might well engage with the KM, be a fun scenario to write up, Surigao Straight writ large, but except for the poor souls who wind up dead or maimed, it would be more or less meaningless in the strategic sense.

Oh, I'm not disputing that the US Navy had considerable night capability by 1950. But even with primitive guided bombs and missiles, I don't think it would be enough to stop a determined German battleship attack. After all, they still had to rely on a relatively small number of specialized aircraft rather than being able to throw all the carrier's strike birds at the target.

Otherwise, I completely agree with this, I just wanted to point out that it can happen.

 

[nbcman]

Oh, I'm not disputing that the US Navy had considerable night capability by 1950. But even with primitive guided bombs and missiles, I don't think it would be enough to stop a determined German battleship attack. After all, they still had to rely on a relatively small number of specialized aircraft rather than being able to throw all the carrier's strike birds at the target.

Otherwise, I completely agree with this, I just wanted to point out that it can happen.

The USN subs and aircrew would appreciate all those juicy targets sailing into the Central Atlantic because they wouldn’t make it to the Western Atlantic.

 

[wcv215]

IOTL the U.S. managed to find an esteemed geological expert who stated that, without question, Iceland was part of the "Western Hemisphere" and hence fell under the Monro Doctrine and Roosevelt Corollary. Informally occupying it, along with Greenland, would match up with OTL's actions (the UK occupied the Faroe Islands, whether the U.S. would replace the British if they surrendered is an interesting question).

Yes, but that's still not annexation, its a temporary occupation.

 

[Terran Allias]

...okay, so why would the US annex Iceland?

Is it some kind of rule that you have to annex a place to use it as a staging ground for an invasion?

If so I have some bad news for the British.

To fulfil the requirements of a Nazi invasion of America of course .

If Nazi Germany was somehow able to achieve nukes and stability then the US military will be sitting there for the long haul. As Some one said it would be a virtual annexation and might become an actual one if the will is there. Greenland however will be annexed

 

[Histor32]

Not much of a chance.. Rhine barges don't work well in the open ocean .

Even if you Nuke first . If the Germans win.. They are way to busy trying to hold what the won down and fighting the rennets well past 1950

 

[Terran Allias]

No discussion of Japan, even if won't be able to bring much to bear. Most fighting along that front would occur somewhere between Australia and Indonesia

 

[Alanith]

Oh, I'm not disputing that the US Navy had considerable night capability by 1950. But even with primitive guided bombs and missiles, I don't think it would be enough to stop a determined German battleship attack. After all, they still had to rely on a relatively small number of specialized aircraft rather than being able to throw all the carrier's strike birds at the target.

Otherwise, I completely agree with this, I just wanted to point out that it can happen.

The Bismark class has a top speed of 30 knots on Trials
Not one of the Many, MANY H-class proposals exceeded 32 knots.

The Essex class has a top speed of 32.7 knots.
The Iowa can manage 33 knots.

There is absolutely no reason to ever engage in battleship warfare with the Germans with your carrier taskforce if you don't want to, as presumably by 1950 you have a pretty freaking decent surface scan radar system on all ships, and the moment you pick up Hans making a beeline for the Taskforce, you can turn around and power away at full speed till daylight.

 

[CV12Hornet]

Or we can take the more plausible route, and redefine "Invasion" as "Cultural Invasion", and figure out how to make German culture popular in


The Bismark class has a top speed of 30 knots on Trials
Not one of the Many, MANY H-class proposals exceeded 32 knots.

The Essex class has a top speed of 32.7 knots.
The Iowa can manage 33 knots.

There is absolutely no reason to ever engage in battleship warfare with the Germans with your carrier taskforce if you don't want to, as presumably by 1950 you have a pretty freaking decent surface scan radar system on all ships, and the moment you pick up Hans making a beeline for the Taskforce, you can turn around and power away at full speed till daylight.

And if they're going for something important that's not the carriers...?