AHC: HMS Rodney sinks the Tirpitz

[Kantai Kessen]

This is not that complicated.

As many of us know, IOTL HMS Rodney contributed largely to the sinking of the Bismarck.

Now try to make it so that she does in Bismarck's sister as well. Timing, context and method are up to your choosing. Nothing ASB is allowed though.

Bonus points if Rodney sinks both of the sisters.

What might be the consequences, if this is at all possible?

 

[Resurgam]

You need to make Hitler willing to use large surface vessels in sorties like the one Bismarck was engaged in - he wasn't after Rhine.

Otherwise... I have a hard time seeing Churchill sending Rodney into the fjords on a suicide mission like that.

 

[Kantai Kessen]

You need to make Hitler willing to use large surface vessels in sorties like the one Bismarck was engaged in - he wasn't after Rhine.

Otherwise... I have a hard time seeing Churchill sending Rodney into the fjords on a suicide mission like that.

Perhaps a Scharnhorst and Duke of York style scenario is the ticket here.

 

[steamboy]

Well there was nearly an intercept during one of the Tirpitz's excursions, she was attacked by FAA Albacores but it was in bad weather and she was spotted after she'd been alerted that the RN was in the area and was already running for Norway and had a head start. The Albacores, moving at about 80 knots due to the headwind and warloads were trying to overtake a ship doing about 30 knots, they made one attack, theTirpitz dodged the torps and she got out of range and into friendly air cover before a second strike could get to her.

If the Tirpitz hadn't been forewarned and the RN found her before she could turn and open the range and get some damaging hits to slow her enough for the RN's surface ships to engage then they'd have had the KGV, Berwick and 6 DDs. There's also the Duke of York and Renown in the area that could have been called in. If this air attack was successful in seriously slowing the Tirpitz, and you added Rodney to the mix, then her slow speed wouldn't be an issue.

As for the aftermath, well she'd be quite the celebrity, but really by 1944 she was utterly worn out, having not had a major refit or overhaul and was in rather poor shape. There's a reason that the Nelson was refitted and slathered in AA guns before being sent to the Pacific whilst Rodney stayed at home as a bombardment platform. So I doubt that the UK would preserve her, the country simply didn't have the money to do so. Maybe some of her guns or other fittings might have survived.

 

[Kantai Kessen]

Well there was nearly an intercept during one of the Tirpitz's excursions, she was attacked by FAA Albacores but it was in bad weather and she was spotted after she'd been alerted that the RN was in the area and was already running for Norway and had a head start. The Albacores, moving at about 80 knots due to the headwind and warloads were trying to overtake a ship doing about 30 knots, they made one attack, theTirpitz dodged the torps and she got out of range and into friendly air cover before a second strike could get to her.

If the Tirpitz hadn't been forewarned and the RN found her before she could turn and open the range and get some damaging hits to slow her enough for the RN's surface ships to engage then they'd have had the KGV, Berwick and 6 DDs. There's also the Duke of York and Renown in the area that could have been called in. If this air attack was successful in seriously slowing the Tirpitz, and you added Rodney to the mix, then her slow speed wouldn't be an issue.

As for the aftermath, well she'd be quite the celebrity, but really by 1944 she was utterly worn out, having not had a major refit or overhaul and was in rather poor shape. There's a reason that the Nelson was refitted and slathered in AA guns before being sent to the Pacific whilst Rodney stayed at home as a bombardment platform. So I doubt that the UK would preserve her, the country simply didn't have the money to do so. Maybe some of her guns or other fittings might have survived.

What if Rodney intercepted Tirpitz alone and, in doing so, they beat the shit out of each other? Obviously Rodney wins - she's a far better design - but wouldn't that necessitate exactly the sort of R&R that Nelson got?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Have Hood correctly ID Bismarck at Denmark Straits and like here first straddle verses Prinz Eugen she gets an accurate straddle verses Bismarck and achieves a hit between Anton and Bruno knocking them out and badly unsettling the ships company.

Realising that the tables have turned the Bismarck makes an about turn and eventually despite additional hits manages to disengage and then managed to head back to Norway.

Repairs take 6 months and it is decided to not risk Bismarck on her own again.

So in mid 42 both Bismarck and Tirpitz sortie into the Atlantic or Artic ocean and find themselves ambushed by a combined Fast SAG of KGVs and the USN modern BBs supported by several RN and USN carriers.

A second slower SAG based around Nelson and Rodney provide a close escort for the target convoy

The Tirpitz, her radars non functional after several air attacks or simple maintenance issues ends up under the guns of Rodney in a one sided night action that sees her savaged in the opening salvos. Her speed reduced and fighting blind Rodneys 16” shells rapidly render her incapable of fighting back or escaping.

Crippled A flurry of torpedoes from Rodney and her escorts sends her to the bottom.

Although survivors claim that they scuttled her whatever the cause of her final sinking it was Rodneys 16” shellfire that doomed her.

 

[steamboy]

What if Rodney intercepted Tirpitz alone and, in doing so, they beat the shit out of each other? Obviously Rodney wins - she's a far better design - but wouldn't that necessitate exactly the sort of R&R that Nelson got?

Maybe? It depends on the damage done to Rodney, the battle against Bismark was decided with that huge haymaker of a hit fowards that Rodney landed about 15 minutes in once shooting started. If the same kind of heavy hit occurs here and it cripples the Tirpitz's ability to respond effectively then she might get away without much damage.

It also hugely depends on the German Commander's orders, they could see the lone Rodney and go "YOU! FITE ME!" and attack, or probably following orders go nope and get out of there. But if they battered one another with the Tirpitz coming off worse and starting to settle and the Rodney's battered but not in danger of sinking, then yeah she'd get refits and repairs, but this is about 1943 ish, this means she's going to be out of action probably for a year and might need a trip to the US to get the work done effectively.

 

[Kantai Kessen]

Maybe? It depends on the damage done to Rodney, the battle against Bismark was decided with that huge haymaker of a hit fowards that Rodney landed about 15 minutes in once shooting started. If the same kind of heavy hit occurs here and it cripples the Tirpitz's ability to respond effectively then she might get away without much damage.

It also hugely depends on the German Commander's orders, they could see the lone Rodney and go "YOU! FITE ME!" and attack, or probably following orders go nope and get out of there. But if they battered one another with the Tirpitz coming off worse and starting to settle and the Rodney's battered but not in danger of sinking, then yeah she'd get refits and repairs, but this is about 1943 ish, this means she's going to be out of action probably for a year and might need a trip to the US to get the work done effectively.

That mental image of Tirpitz and Rodney punching each other in fisticuffs is killing me. Thank you.

It might be a really valuable convoy that Rodney is guarding and which the German CO decides he has to get no matter what.

As for the US refit, that could also entail replacing the 6" guns with twelve 5" guns in six twin mounts, as I believe was considered for Nelson. In any case, she should be back in action by late 1944 at the latest and be ready to support the Pacific campaign, maybe even serve in the post-war environment.

 

[Kantai Kessen]

Have Hood correctly ID Bismarck at Denmark Straits and like here first straddle verses Prinz Eugen she gets an accurate straddle verses Bismarck and achieves a hit between Anton and Bruno knocking them out and badly unsettling the ships company.

Realising that the tables have turned the Bismarck makes an about turn and eventually despite additional hits manages to disengage and then managed to head back to Norway.

Repairs take 6 months and it is decided to not risk Bismarck on her own again.

So in mid 42 both Bismarck and Tirpitz sortie into the Atlantic or Artic ocean and find themselves ambushed by a combined Fast SAG of KGVs and the USN modern BBs supported by several RN and USN carriers.

A second slower SAG based around Nelson and Rodney provide a close escort for the target convoy

The Tirpitz, her radars non functional after several air attacks or simple maintenance issues ends up under the guns of Rodney in a one sided night action that sees her savaged in the opening salvos. Her speed reduced and fighting blind Rodneys 16” shells rapidly render her incapable of fighting back or escaping.

Crippled A flurry of torpedoes from Rodney and her escorts sends her to the bottom.

Although survivors claim that they scuttled her whatever the cause of her final sinking it was Rodneys 16” shellfire that doomed her.

In that scenario, couldn't the fast SAG and the carriers kill the two before they even got a chance to meet the Nelsons?

I should also have said in the OP - bonus points if you can get Rodney to kill Bismarck AND Tirpitz, thus making her the RN battleship with the highest kill count (admittedly 2 isn't that high, but even Warspite had none).

 

[steamboy]

That mental image of Tirpitz and Rodney punching each other in fisticuffs is killing me. Thank you.

It might be a really valuable convoy that Rodney is guarding and which the German CO decides he has to get no matter what.

As for the US refit, that could also entail replacing the 6" guns with twelve 5" guns in six twin mounts, as I believe was considered for Nelson. In any case, she should be back in action by late 1944 at the latest and be ready to support the Pacific campaign, maybe even serve in the post-war environment.

If its a convoy with a value like PQ-17 and the Tirpitz has been ordered in no uncertain terms and somehow the Allies fuck up massively and the 1st thing they learn about the Tirpitz being anywhere near the convoy is when smoke is spotted on the horizon. Then the Rodney (who's the close escort) and the DD/DE/Frigate escort would form up to engage whilst the convoy scatters. All the while the Rodney is yelling on the Radio "GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUYS!!!!"

The RN was looking at replacing the 6-inch with 5.25's but yeah they might replace them with 5-inch 38's instead (a better AA gun anyhow) as well as other fittings etc. That would see her sent to the Far East in 44/45 but there she's still too slow to operate with the CV's so would probably spend her time as flagship of the CVE squadron's escort along with Queen Elisabeth. But post war, no, the UK was skint, we laid up our battleships as soon as we could as we simply couldn't afford to run them.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

In that scenario, couldn't the fast SAG and the carriers kill the two before they even got a chance to meet the Nelsons?

I should also have said in the OP - bonus points if you can get Rodney to kill Bismarck AND Tirpitz, thus making her the RN battleship with the highest kill count (admittedly 2 isn't that high, but even Warspite had none).

Have the German SAG suddenly get wise to the trap split up and initially escape due to bad weather?

Tirpitz blunders into Rodney as per my scenario and is sunk.

Bismarck is found and attacked by carrier bombers suffering crippling damage the next morning and Rodney by chance being the closest capital unit gets to her first and quickly wreaks her before the fast SAG can arrive.

 

[Kantai Kessen]

Have the German SAG suddenly get wise to the trap split up and initially escape due to bad weather?

Tirpitz blunders into Rodney as per my scenario and is sunk.

Bismarck is found and attacked by carrier bombers suffering crippling damage the next morning and Rodney by chance being the closest capital unit gets to her first and quickly wreaks her before the fast SAG can arrive.

Imagine meeting KGV and Duke of York that morning.

So Rodney how did it go?

Oh, y'know, just singlehandedly destroyed the Kriegsmarine surface threat.

Victorious helped you know.

Oh, Victorious can go to the devil. Like some tea?

 

[Kantai Kessen]

If its a convoy with a value like PQ-17 and the Tirpitz has been ordered in no uncertain terms and somehow the Allies fuck up massively and the 1st thing they learn about the Tirpitz being anywhere near the convoy is when smoke is spotted on the horizon. Then the Rodney (who's the close escort) and the DD/DE/Frigate escort would form up to engage whilst the convoy scatters. All the while the Rodney is yelling on the Radio "GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUYS!!!!"

The RN was looking at replacing the 6-inch with 5.25's but yeah they might replace them with 5-inch 38's instead (a better AA gun anyhow) as well as other fittings etc. That would see her sent to the Far East in 44/45 but there she's still too slow to operate with the CV's so would probably spend her time as flagship of the CVE squadron's escort along with Queen Elisabeth. But post war, no, the UK was skint, we laid up our battleships as soon as we could as we simply couldn't afford to run them.

Is there a possibility for any RN battleship being activated for Korea?

 

[Cockroach]

Tirpitz sunk as a target post-war?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Imagine meeting KGV and Duke of York that morning.

So Rodney how did it go?

Oh, y'know, just singlehandedly destroyed the Kriegsmarine surface threat.

Victorious helped you know.

Oh, Victorious can go to the devil. Like some tea?

With Bismarck surviving Denmark Straits I could see POW retained by the home fleet and not sent to the Far East.

Anson might also have been ready as well?

So it might be all 3, possibly 4 KGVs operating as a SAG along with 1 or 2 USN BBs making disappointed noises.

 

[steamboy]

Is there a possibility for any RN battleship being activated for Korea?

Vanguard, the others were all basically gone or laid up by then.

 

[Kantai Kessen]

With Bismarck surviving Denmark Straits I could see POW retained by the home fleet and not sent to the Far East.

Anson might also have been ready as well?

So it might be all 3, possibly 4 KGVs operating as a SAG along with 1 or 2 USN BBs making disappointed noises.

Could Hood have been sent in Force Z instead?

Meanwhile Nelson is proud of her sister

 

[Kantai Kessen]

Vanguard, the others were all basically gone or laid up by then.

Why wasn't the big V sent?

 

[steamboy]

Why wasn't the big V sent?

Money and that she was acting as the Royal Yacht at the time and I think HMG would have been irked if the Vanguard snuck off to Korea with the Queen aboard

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Is there a possibility for any RN battleship being activated for Korea?

Perhaps have the Royal tour go ahead in late 1949. Vanguard was fitted out as a ‘Royal Yatch’ but KGVI’s failing health resulted in the tour being cancelled.

Instead the Vanguard is in the Far East when the Korean war kicks off and she is retailed as the flagship of the Commonwealth Navy’s response.
Largely used for shore bombardment her large flag areas are useful for command and control and she is used in that regard for several operations during 1950 and 51 before being replaced by HMS Belfast allowing her to return to the UK for a much needed refit.