AHC: 'Darkest' 21st century that doesn't involve Nazi victory or global nuclear war

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Vorti, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. Lalli Well-Known Member

    Feb 28, 2010
    OP states no global nuclear war.
    cpip and Wolf1965 like this.
  2. Tzaero With Y

    Jun 27, 2010
    What about a worse oil crisis? Or more wars over oil.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    samcster94 likes this.
  3. Anchises Well-Known Member

    Nov 12, 2017
    Even if the B-Weapon is (somewhat) contained to the SU effects could be horrible. No amount of medical care is going to save the Gerontocrats if they are infected.

    There could easily be a grave leadership crisis.
  4. Polskamoze Active Member

    Feb 17, 2017
    Yuor Building, British East Asia
    The Bosheviks win the 1920 Polish-Soviet War, communism spreads to Germany and France, a bloody war destroys the British Empire, and the US becomes the last "beacon of freedom"
  5. Polskamoze Active Member

    Feb 17, 2017
    Yuor Building, British East Asia
    No nuclear war
    Wolf1965 likes this.
  6. Wolf1965 Donor

    Mar 28, 2009
    North Germany
    Sorry, should have read the headlines better.
  7. samcster94 Well-Known Member

    Apr 19, 2017
    China run as a mega North Korea, that is chilling.
  8. FlyingSquirrel Well-Known Member

    Mar 4, 2016
    What if D-Day fails and the Allies eventually use the A-bomb to force Germany to surrender, and the Soviets sweep across more of Western Europe since they have an Eastern foothold and the Allies are still stuck across the English Channel? Could we have seen all of Germany as well as perhaps Italy, Austria, France, and the Scandinavian and Benelux countries in a similar position as the Eastern European Warsaw Pact nations, i.e. Soviet client states under locally-based Communist dictators?

    I suspect that in this scenario, the Cold War persists for a longer period of time and perhaps the Soviets and/or Communism in general make more gains elsewhere, since the U.S. and Britain would be facing a larger population and military force on the other side. Maybe Korea is left to fall, for example, because the cost of intervening is seen as too high.
  9. Akai Emerging from Lurking.

    Aug 23, 2016
    I always think a "Lesser Mao" Scenario somehow manages to top that.
    Ratmancampidori and samcster94 like this.
  10. no one Neither me,nor you.

    Nov 16, 2017
    oh. mega Kmher Rouge
    Ratmancampidori and samcster94 like this.
  11. CountPeter Apparently the anti-christ.

    Oct 20, 2014
    Not neccesarily a plausible TL, but a Fascist Britain could lead to some nightmares.

    Presuming Mosley is consistent and doesn't join the wars in Europe, the world could be interesting in the Chinese sense.

    Hypothetically, the world could be something of a 3 bloc cold war.
    I think the Soviets beating the Germans is inevitable, but the war would be much more awful and probably last a lot longer. I could see Italy surviving if Nukes come about/depending on how war exhausted the soviets are.
    Africa would have to deal with a more brutal late colonialism. The Italian fascists and a more internal focused British empire is going to be awful, particularly as Britain would have a lot more resources at their disposal and the Mosleyite idea of having something of an Autarky in the British Empire.

    India's fight for independence would also be super horrific.
    KaiserVonIkapoc and samcster94 like this.
  12. samcster94 Well-Known Member

    Apr 19, 2017
    Hundreds of millions dead in a conflict that makes Syria look simple.
  13. samcster94 Well-Known Member

    Apr 19, 2017
    Now that is just nightmarishly bad(and nobody comes to the rescue either).
  14. Mad Bad Rabbit Well-Known Member

    Aug 18, 2007
    "Though the Heavens Fall"

    Mile-wide asteroid 1938 Hermes strikes United States in October 1938 (during Orson Welles panic broadcast). Ohio gone. U.S. won't be the arsenal of democracy for some time.

    Impending impact winter provokes Germany and Japan to grab as much territory as possible, as fast as possible. With U.S. injured on sidelines, brutal Alt-WWII will drag on until late 1950s, when climate returns to normal.

    No U.S. or British Manhattan project; Fermi, Szilard and Wigner all end up fleeing east, ending up in the secret+closed city of Stalinatomgrad.
    RiverDelta likes this.
  15. Redbeard Banned

    Jan 18, 2004
    Copenhagen , Denmark
    • Ban

    Well, I actually mean exactly what I wrote and I still do.

    It is your board and your rules, but if that involves tabooing what I see as one of the most important agendas in the part of the world where I live, I of course can’t contribute to this board any longer – and the 14 years so far obviously were way too many.

    And no, this hasn’t anything to do with race, racism or hate speech, but about realizing the single most important factor in the disastrously lacking integration of immigrants in the past 3-4 decades. That doesn’t make Muslims any worse or better humans than everybody else, but it also doesn’t change that the cultural implications of practicing most ways of Islam also means significant barriers to being integrated in a society like mine. Usually you would expect such problems to dampen over time, but inside a lot of individual variations that hasn’t been the case with most Muslim immigrants and we now have outright parallel societies where getting an education and a job doesn’t seem to help – often on the contrary.

    That isn’t a big problem with small and constant minorities, but when the immigration policy if unchanged threatens to change that into a major problem you of course have to address it precisely. Not just for the sake of the receiving end but also to stop the tragedy where millions in vain seek milk and honey in the streets of Europe and thousands each year drown in the Mediterranean.

    I’m actually not so worried any longer, because it over here isn’t as tabooed as earlier, but I have also seen how much worse it is where the taboos have been strongest.

    Goodbye - I will take my debates back to the real world!
  16. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

    Oct 4, 2005
    This honestly saddens me on several levels. I have long seen you as a valued contributor here. You have been here from the beginning, longer than I've been here. It shouldn't have come to this.

    I know you will likely simply ditch the e-mail when you get it, but I am compelled to respond to your comments just in case you do look at it.

    As an American I have lived my entire life in what is a mixed society. That mixture has, and continues to be, fraught with bigotry and prejudice with every wave of immigrants. Catholics, Jews, Italians, Germans, Freemen Blacks, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indians (Asian), you name it. After a few decades all of these groups become a part of the general culture, even as gradually reducing minorities of the "established" population retained their bigotry. Bigotry is, sadly, one of those human vices that is seemingly impossible to truly stamp out, it always manages to find a new target to despise. This doesn't mean it is acceptable.

    The addition of new cultures is often painful, usual more for the immigrant community than the established, but the result is far better, more vibrant society.

    Your argument about Muslims has been used in the United States for literally centuries, going back before there was an United States. As a life long student of American history I can recall the signs "No Irish need apply", "membership restricted", "immigrants from Southern Europe aren't welcome here" "no Chinamen allowed", "Manzanar", "Separate but equal", and far too many more. American has adapted and folding in all of the groups, despite the continuing presence of some unrepentant bigots. We've had Irish American Presidents, Black Presidents, Italian and Jews candidates for vice President and President. It isn't perfect, it never will be. As the once despised join the mainstream some of them display bigotry toward the next immigrant group. Ignorance is never in short supply.

    Your position was used in Europe for well over 1,000 years towards Jews and Roma until the Reich took the idea to its extreme, after which it mainly lost popularity, particularly towards Jews. Once could take your statement about Muslims, replace the subject with Jews or Roma, and not have to change a word from any progrom or justification for the Holocaust.

    However, you have made your position clear. So be it. I just wish you have chosen an indefinite fishing trip rather than suicide by Mod.

    We divorce you.

    To Coventry with you.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  17. Redcoat Wanted in 19 different Timelines Banned

    Nov 28, 2016
    Long Island
    Sad to see this guy get banned, he'll be missed. though seeing his comment he deserved it.
  18. Jürgen Well-Known Member

    Jul 16, 2016
    All respect to you CalBear, but your arguments won't convince a single non-American here who hold such views. Most of all because people are aware of American history of immigration, but what you ignore is that we have our own history of immigration, which are far more relevant in how Europeans (in this case) see immigration. How a Polish person see immigration won't ever be based on American immigration history, unless it's forced down their throat (and in that case they won't react positive), it will be based on the immigrations of Germans to Poland (something which continued until 1914 even in Russian Poland).

    In the same manner for a lot of us, the Holocaust are pretty irrelevant in how we see minorities, because it wasn't something we pushed and it was even something we objected to and worked against. Just because we're "White people" (the idea of White people as a collective identity pretty much indicate a way to see the world we don't share) doesn't mean we have some kind of collective guilt for whatever our neighbours did.

    How people see immigration are based on their own history, and pretty much every European country have their own history of being a emigration target from which they have learnt their own lessons. For Western Europe it was pretty much only a short periode from 1914-1950 where it saw limited immigration (and even there was exceptions with some countries), while in eastern Europe the period was longer and lasted until the 2005. As such American history as a emigration target are pretty irrelevant in a European context (outside Russia of course as its share the frontier history with USA).

    If you want to convince people of the benefit of Muslim immigration, you need to argue to the cultural context, as the one the people you want to convince live in, not from the one yourself live in and they don't share.
    Kome likes this.
  19. Jape Seacombe Mod

    Feb 26, 2008
    Paradise 5
    Britain, France and the US back up Dutch attempts if not to hold Indonesia then to control the independence process. The East Indies are broken up into ethnic and religious statelets, many ruled by native kings. Also West Irian and maybe some other small enclaves become Dutch/Eurasian hold-outs. Allied support can only go so far and by the 1960s this system will collapse and you have the possibility of intercommunal strife on levels unseen. Pan-Indonesian Nationalists, Communists, Islamists, Minorities, Dutch forces never mind international involvement, covert or otherwise. In terms of bodycount, a prolonged multi-sided Indonesian Civil War could be a definate historic tragedy.
  20. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

    Oct 4, 2005
    If I tried to do it from a "European" point of view it would be an utter insult to everyone who IS European.

    My point, which I am sort of surprised to hear doesn't translate, is that immigrant communities don't stay isolated or insular UNLESS they are forced into it. I am also amazed that the classic "substitute "A" for "B"" test doesn't make sense.