The challenge is to wank Dalmatia along with the language so it roughly borders present day Italy, Romania and Hungary, acting as a Romance speaking corridor of sorts between Italy and Romania.
AHC - Dalmatia Wank
- Thread starter Masked Grizzly
- Start date
So make Dalmatia/alt-Yugoslavia a Romance state? That shouldn't be impossible.
Perhaps if the WRE keeps a Majorian Renaissance going, or Julius Nepos creates an rump WRE state backed by the ERE.
Either way they need to keep the Slavs out, or Romance them. Perhaps a Nepos-Empire doesn't just stop Slavic raids, but goes and actively enslaves those communties, selling them as a form of revenue to the east and west, and raising any children in the Roman manner. I can see a form of Roman Janissary made from Slav children that form the backbone of the Roman army in its attempts to assert itself. Roman landowners focus on exporting crops and other goods, making Dalmatia the centre of the economy, but whether they build a new WRE or not, Dalmatia never becomes the heart of this new Empire (instead just a powerful part of the economy). Along comes nationalism, and whilst Dalmatia sees itself as partly Roman, it sees itself also as Dalmatian first.
Perhaps if the WRE keeps a Majorian Renaissance going, or Julius Nepos creates an rump WRE state backed by the ERE.
Either way they need to keep the Slavs out, or Romance them. Perhaps a Nepos-Empire doesn't just stop Slavic raids, but goes and actively enslaves those communties, selling them as a form of revenue to the east and west, and raising any children in the Roman manner. I can see a form of Roman Janissary made from Slav children that form the backbone of the Roman army in its attempts to assert itself. Roman landowners focus on exporting crops and other goods, making Dalmatia the centre of the economy, but whether they build a new WRE or not, Dalmatia never becomes the heart of this new Empire (instead just a powerful part of the economy). Along comes nationalism, and whilst Dalmatia sees itself as partly Roman, it sees itself also as Dalmatian first.
Not quite alt-Yugoslavia, would have an ATL Romance-speaking Dalmatian state include at minimum all of OTL Croatia (if not Slovenia assuming the latter's territory somehow ends up under Italian rule) as well as much of Bosnia and northern Serbia (the latter roughly corresponding to the OTL Autonomous Province of Vojvodina).
Grey Wolf
Donor
IMHO the possibilities seem limited to either a secession from Venice, or some sort of expanded Ragusa.
I wonder if 1204 is an idea? If the Venetians hadn't diverted the 4th Crusade to effectively destroy Zara, would Zara have evolved to become an independent powerhouse for the region?
I wonder if 1204 is an idea? If the Venetians hadn't diverted the 4th Crusade to effectively destroy Zara, would Zara have evolved to become an independent powerhouse for the region?
There is a very interesting discussion on this forum about potential cities that could replace Venice or Genoa as the two strongest maritime republics. I have been making a case for Zara to be a good contender that could possibly unite the rest of the Dalmatian cites into a very loose confederation and control the Adriatic shipping lanes. Here is the link:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-their-rival-maritime-republics.407038/page-2
This POD would be a good foundation for a strong Dalmatia that could slowly expand inland (by mostly non military means), however it would probably be too late to take most of the western Balkans. For that an earlier POD would be required:
- POD 1: Like previously mentioned a Roman rump state survives. The ERE officially recognizes Dalmatia as the legal heir of the WRE and doesn't annex it. Invasions from barbarians are repelled and Dalmatia as an independent entity survives. Eventually it controls the whole western Balkans.
- POD 2: Dalmatian cites unite in the early Middle Ages with Zara as capital. This union is created as a way to protect themselves from the new Slavic principalities in the hinterland and from piracy. Unlike in the OTL the Dalmatians act less hostile/xenophobic toward the Slavs, and establish good relations earlier through trade, missionary work or even intermarriages. Slavs are exposed to a superior Dalmatian culture and slowly assimilate.
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I was thinking along the same lines. If Zadar and the other Dalmatians get strong early enough, they could fully halt Venice's growth just because of their location. No Venetian ships could pass if the Zadaran fleet was patrolling the Adriatic. At the same time however, their location also makes them more vulnerable to attacks by the Ottomans/Hungarians/Austrians/etc. They would have to own most of Croatia simply for survival's sake I would imagine, so they can hold their own.
I'd vote for this option. Whilst I don't know if Zara could form the new Dalmatian powerhouse, I'd be curious to know how Romance the culture was. A Zara-lead Dalmatian trade league could certainly have the money - ally with Hungary and Milan AGAINST Venice, the Dalmatian trade league supplants Venice and uses the income to hire Italian Condottieri and with Italian-influenced traders, and Italian mercenaries helping, Italian could certainly influence the local language to make it more Romance.
Add in cities inland to trade with as members of the trade league could be interesting too, especially along the major trade routes. After that the next logical step would be to secure the productive regions - and then it builds all the way to the Danube - with a bunch of riverine trading cities.
I just don't know if Zara could create a new trade league, bring them on side, and the League having the power to take over and defend itself. But it does have the advantage that if there PoD is "Venice doesn't use the Crusaders as looters but actually goes to Egypt", then Egypt changes, the ERE continues on its merry way without the Frankokratia ruining it all. Admittedly Venice would likely fall if the Zara-led league
So in this scenario, the Chakavian dialect would be butterflied since the Slavs would speak Dalmatian Neo-Latin language, am I right?
In this case, where could be the focus of ATL Croatian (or actually Illyro-Slavic) identity?
General Ripper
Banned
Basicly impossible. You would have to have Nepot's Empire to survive barbarian invasions and expand and that's pretty much ASB territory.
I mostly lurk these days but this certainly caught my attention. So cudos on the idea.
The best possible PoD isn't either of the two mentioned above.
The most likely way to create a solid Dalmatian political entity with its own culture (though still part of a wider Mediteranean coine) and language (it existed in OTL, in this one it would be more prominent and could possibly make the transition between the Romance of Appenine Peninsula and those of the Carpathians much more less nebulous) is for the medieval Byzantine theme of Dalmatia to remain a relevant political entity and unify around either Zadar (Zara) or Split (Spalato), though Zadar would be a better candidate because it was already the administrative center of the theme and has much more valuable hinterland and larger surviving Ager to base its further expansion from.
If these Dalmatian communes remain united and solidify they will be in a much better position to exploit instabilities that periodically occured in Croatia that Venice ever could.
The best possible PoD isn't either of the two mentioned above.
The most likely way to create a solid Dalmatian political entity with its own culture (though still part of a wider Mediteranean coine) and language (it existed in OTL, in this one it would be more prominent and could possibly make the transition between the Romance of Appenine Peninsula and those of the Carpathians much more less nebulous) is for the medieval Byzantine theme of Dalmatia to remain a relevant political entity and unify around either Zadar (Zara) or Split (Spalato), though Zadar would be a better candidate because it was already the administrative center of the theme and has much more valuable hinterland and larger surviving Ager to base its further expansion from.
If these Dalmatian communes remain united and solidify they will be in a much better position to exploit instabilities that periodically occured in Croatia that Venice ever could.
The culture in the Dalmatian cities was very Romance. Heck, even todays Slavic speaking population of Dalmatia is very Romance influenced. Dalmatian was still spoken in the 14th century (though heavily influenced by Venetian) and in some cities like Ragusa it survived even longer. In the following link you can download an article about the Zaratin Dalmatian dialect:
https://www.google.hr/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNGW3jCZgwoGpxUMa1hyf1RvidRmvA&cad=rja
Unfortunately the article is in Croatian, but there are samples of Dalmatian that many of you might find interesting. On page 415 you have a letter in Dalmatian from the Zaratin patrician Todre de Fomat to the Ragusan cançiler Pono de Stambert. On page 418 to 419 you have inventory lists and wills written in Dalmatian.
The Dalmatians have had success in defending themselves against Venice before. With a little more money and a little more luck (no 4th Crusade) I could see the Dalmatians successfully ridding themselves of Venice once and for all, especially if they combined their military and financial assets instead of acting independently as in OTL.
In this scenario Dalmatian would be the prestigious language of trade, diplomacy and education on the eastern shore of the Adriatic. The Slavs would slowly adopt it but I don't think that would make Chakavian extinct due to the use of Slavicin church liturgy (maybe the Pope could help out?). I envision a bilingual society in coastal Croatia for many centuries.
Regarding the ATL Croatian identity, many things could happen. Being a Croat back then meant you were a subject of the Croatian Duke/King, and you paid him your taxes. Culturally the people considered themselves as just Slavs. There was no nationalism in that era yet. If the Croats accept the Dalmatian language then the Slav identity slowly disappears, leaving only a political Croat one. And since we are developing a scenario for a Dalmatian Wank, I imagine that the Croat state for some reason could fall apart (succession crises civil war?) and the Dalmatian Confederacy picks up the pieces (buying territory from the loosing sides like Venice did in OTL). Maybe someone can come up with something better.
I wouldn't say that it is impossible. Very difficult to realistically achieve, but not impossible
. If Nepos lets go of his ambitions to retake Italy then he could have avoided his premature death and Odoacer wouldn't have had a pretext to invade Dalmatia. Naming an official heir (recognized by the ERE) before his death would have helped keep "The WRE is still alive" charade much longer. As time goes by, the political situation changes. Odoacer falls as in OTL. A few barbaric incursions are possible, but thanks to the rough terrain and closeness to the ERE, defense is not ASB. The rump state survives. I agree they couldn't have expanded earlier on. It could only happen much later when the time is right. And its not like they need to retake half of the old Empire to successfully achieve the stated goals of this wank.Doesn't that fit in with my proposed POD 2
? I didn't specifically mention the Byzantine theme of Dalmatia but it was about union in the early middle ages. Or are you thinking of an even earlier date, before the arrival of the Slavs. After the Gothic War maybe? That could be a very good POD indeed.
Linguistically, I think there would need to be a significant mix of Slavic and Romance features, in order to have a culture significantly different from Venice. Molise Croatian is a heavily italianized Slavic language, while in this case a reverse would happen?
It does, sort of. I might have misunderstood you be cause you spoke about cities uniting with Zara as it capital which I immediately read as the Theme fell apart and each started a life as its own commune before getting back together.
What I envision is that the unity that already existed is just further strengthened.
The primary goals of such an ascendant Theme (that would slowly be on the path of independence just as Venice was) was to use the Byzantine actions of the last third of the 9th century to secure the south dalmatian island, most importantly Brač and Hvar for their demographic and economic boost. After all the Starogradsko field on Hvar is the largest agricultural area on any island on the adriatic and larger than most agers of costal communes. I have to double check but I think it was larger than even Zadar's.
After that the goal would be to secure island of Pag and Kaštelansko field between Trogir and Split and establishing control over Klis overlooking the only major road from the interior into that area. That would provide the Theme with sufficient economic and demographic staying power to put Venice in its place.
Maybe an important turning point would be a victory of the "greeks" against Duke Trpimir during the time Gottschalk stayed at his court which is generally seen as the beginning of a more assertive policy of local rulers towards the costal communes and.
But the Dalmatian language was very different than Venetian though. Presumably TTL we'd have Dalmatian speakers assimilate Croats and create a separate identity for the Adriatic Coast (not Venetian, not Italian, not Slav). In any case (if we want a Dalmatia wank), they'd be strong rivals of Venice and probably check it's power.
Your scenario is the most realistic way to form an independent Dalmatian state. A similar scenario allegedly almost happened OTL in the first half of the 10th century with the Madi family from Zara (I have mentioned this in a different thread so sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I'll repeat it again). They expanded their influence into all the other Dalmatian cities and allegedly planed to steer the Theme to independence similar to what Venice did. The Emperor put 2 and 2 together and in prisoned the head of the family while reducing the family's influence only to Zara (or was the still called Iader back then?).
I like the strategy you comed up with. It a great way to create a good powerbase for a united Dalmatia. Now what about the Dalmatia wank thet the original poster requested. How to take over the rest of the western Balkan?
I totally agree. The Dalmatians were culturally and linguistically similar to the Italians but not that similar.
I won't lie - if I could play Dalmatians as a separate culture in a Paradox game right now, I totally would.
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From what we've discussed with a Dalmatian trade league suggests to me that we'd be looking at very metropolitan urban centres that are obsessed with trade, with any hinterland or countryside leading culturally towards the Slavs. You could see a cultural situation that has most words involved with institutions and learning leaning towards the Romance, and homely words leaning towards Slav (in the UK, that is French and Saxon respectively).
I can also see it being weirdly wealthy, but importing food - and I'll explain why. A trade league that that much internal territory will likely be interested in growing money crops in excessive amounts - Wine, Olive oil, Silk (if they can get a few worms and mulberry trees), and then importing grain from Hungary and the Ukraine. I can see exports going from the Adriatic primarily, but then importing food via the Danube from Hungary and the Ukraine, as well as from Egypt.
I have this mad image of a prosperous league with vast terraced plantations with more wealth than most, tied into the Amber Road, Mediterranean Trade network and Danube trade network. How "canal-able" is the region? If it has coal deposits, canals and a trade focused economy - there is great hope for our little Greater Dalmatia that could.
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From what we've discussed with a Dalmatian trade league suggests to me that we'd be looking at very metropolitan urban centres that are obsessed with trade, with any hinterland or countryside leading culturally towards the Slavs. You could see a cultural situation that has most words involved with institutions and learning leaning towards the Romance, and homely words leaning towards Slav (in the UK, that is French and Saxon respectively).
I can also see it being weirdly wealthy, but importing food - and I'll explain why. A trade league that that much internal territory will likely be interested in growing money crops in excessive amounts - Wine, Olive oil, Silk (if they can get a few worms and mulberry trees), and then importing grain from Hungary and the Ukraine. I can see exports going from the Adriatic primarily, but then importing food via the Danube from Hungary and the Ukraine, as well as from Egypt.
I have this mad image of a prosperous league with vast terraced plantations with more wealth than most, tied into the Amber Road, Mediterranean Trade network and Danube trade network. How "canal-able" is the region? If it has coal deposits, canals and a trade focused economy - there is great hope for our little Greater Dalmatia that could.
You mean 11th century and prior Grgur (Gregory)?
The family married into the royal family of Croatia in the 2/3 of the 10th century with the most famous Croatian Queen Jelena being a Madi. It is not impossible to envision a post Zvonimir like situation where the royal line of Croatia ends with the closest relative being the leader of Theme of Dalmatia in a similar way to how Hungarian royals came to the C+D throne in the late 11th early 12th ct.
A stronger more stable Dalmatian Theme that holds the wealth of the coastal trade, has a stronger navy than Venice, still has the backing of the Imperial Court in case of worst case scenario but is sufficiently far enough to be mostly left to its own devices.
There was local silk production Rab, but a far more important resource would be salt and the area has some of the premium salt making areas in Europe.
So a rough scenario for an eventually independent Dalmatia has a PoD in the early 9th century. Istria is returned to the ERE under the Peace of Aachen in 812 tripling the population of the Theme as well as doubling its economic power and size. This allows the Archon in Iadera to exert influence over the Dodge as his inferior rather than an equal as the position is seen as a successor to the former exharhate. The communes along the not adriatic communes rather than striking on their own become perferal elements of "Dalmatia". The third and forth decades of the 9th century are not marked by conflict between Venice and adriatic Slavs but between "Dalmatian" archon and all his resources against the Slavs, culminating the defeat of Duke Trpimir of Croatia in a land battle ensuring Croatian leaders would look to expand their power elsewhere rather than towards to coast. That does not prevent slavic settlers from the hinterlands to move towards the coast and become inhabitants of Dalmatia. Using the string of successes the Archon is able to ensure that Dalmatia is elevated to the position of a Theme in the 850's, a generation earlier than OTL and is able to capitulaise on other events that happen it the period such a slow collapse of Imperial authority in the Franksih Empire and the Bulgarian raids against Croatia that ensure there is no Croatian ascension as was the case in OTL. By the end of the century using the renewed interest of the ERE on their western holdings Dalmatia secures all of the islands on the Adriatic and expands the territories in the hinterlands of the coastal communes as well as acquireing a few communes in the south of Italy following successful wars against the Saracens.
The first 1/4 of the 10th century is a period of stagnation and great danger as the first Bulgarian Empire subjugates the interior and threatens the communes. Split, Ragusa and Iader are besieged several times, but the navy ensures the sieges are pointless. This has two effects, the Dalmatians decide that they sea power and trade will be the pillar of their power while aslo acquireing territories inland to serve as a buffer zone. After the collapse of the Bulgarians the Balkan interior sees a number temporary warlords try to establish their hegemonies that usually fall apart upon their death or soon after so we get period where there is Rascia ascendant, then followed by Doclea, then Zahumlye, then Croatia, the Doclea again, the Bulgarians etc... it is a period of great instability.
Preying on the weakness of the their neighbours the Dalmatians slowly start absorbing bordering shires (zhupanije) creating a buffer zone between the coast and the main masif of the Dinaric Alps. By the time Turks overrun Anadolia and create the largest crisis in the ERE in centuries Dalmatia is the principle trading power on the Mediteranean with a sizable population, great wealth, decent land holdings and a navy second only to the Imperial one. As the Imperial authority weakness the political structure of Dalmatia slowly moves towards a republican form drawing inspiration roman history, after all the people living in Dalmatia apart from calling themsleves Dalmatian primarily use the term Latins when representing their identity. The political elite starts to see themselves as the true cultural and political successor of the old Roman Empire since it is the only major part that remain Latin speaking as opposed to Greek.
With the 12th century fast approaching and the Crusades on the horizon the future is bright for Dalmatia.
I made a mod for Europa Universalis 3 years ago when I had more time for gaming. If you like I can send you the files. Only problem is its for the Heir to the Thrones expansion v4.1b. Pretty old stuff.
Yes prior Grgur/Gregorius/Gregory or what ever his real name was. Yes it was in the 11th century. That was a typo, my bad.
Yes this is also a possibility. The Madi were more interested in securing their back with that marriage then in taking over the Croatian crown, but if things unravel in such a way then Venice will have a lot more to worry about. Protection from the Byzantines would also be unnecessary.
Salt was the best resource to have. It was a necessity for people not a luxury. There would always be a market for salt. Pag island had one of the biggest salt production capabilities in the Adriatic, and there were many more on the Dalmatian coast.
I like it. Only thing I would change is that the Dalmatians have a republican system from the start. It somehow better fits into their personality. They used to be very paranoid about certain individuals gaining to much political power and would have very short terms for executive positions (The Rectors/Dukes of Ragusa had 1 month terms in office).
The HIP mod for CK2 let's you play as Dalmatian culture characters. The only ones actually starting off in game are the Republic of Ragusa... but with the ruler design dlc you can make your own Dalmatian count/Duke/king