AHC - Dalmatia Wank

It would be unlikely to have a republican system from the start since the office of government is an ERE Arahonty.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Venetians choose their own Doges even when under the ERE? When did they officially switch to a Republican system?
I was under the impression that they were very republican from the start and that the Dalmatians would probably mimic this.
 
So a rough scenario for an eventually independent Dalmatia has a PoD in the early 9th century. Istria is returned to the ERE under the Peace of Aachen in 812 tripling the population of the Theme as well as doubling its economic power and size. This allows the Archon in Iadera to exert influence over the Dodge as his inferior rather than an equal as the position is seen as a successor to the former exharhate. The communes along the not adriatic communes rather than striking on their own become perferal elements of "Dalmatia". The third and forth decades of the 9th century are not marked by conflict between Venice and adriatic Slavs but between "Dalmatian" archon and all his resources against the Slavs, culminating the defeat of Duke Trpimir of Croatia in a land battle ensuring Croatian leaders would look to expand their power elsewhere rather than towards to coast. That does not prevent slavic settlers from the hinterlands to move towards the coast and become inhabitants of Dalmatia. Using the string of successes the Archon is able to ensure that Dalmatia is elevated to the position of a Theme in the 850's, a generation earlier than OTL and is able to capitulaise on other events that happen it the period such a slow collapse of Imperial authority in the Franksih Empire and the Bulgarian raids against Croatia that ensure there is no Croatian ascension as was the case in OTL. By the end of the century using the renewed interest of the ERE on their western holdings Dalmatia secures all of the islands on the Adriatic and expands the territories in the hinterlands of the coastal communes as well as acquireing a few communes in the south of Italy following successful wars against the Saracens.

The first 1/4 of the 10th century is a period of stagnation and great danger as the first Bulgarian Empire subjugates the interior and threatens the communes. Split, Ragusa and Iader are besieged several times, but the navy ensures the sieges are pointless. This has two effects, the Dalmatians decide that they sea power and trade will be the pillar of their power while aslo acquireing territories inland to serve as a buffer zone. After the collapse of the Bulgarians the Balkan interior sees a number temporary warlords try to establish their hegemonies that usually fall apart upon their death or soon after so we get period where there is Rascia ascendant, then followed by Doclea, then Zahumlye, then Croatia, the Doclea again, the Bulgarians etc... it is a period of great instability.

Preying on the weakness of the their neighbours the Dalmatians slowly start absorbing bordering shires (zhupanije) creating a buffer zone between the coast and the main masif of the Dinaric Alps. By the time Turks overrun Anadolia and create the largest crisis in the ERE in centuries Dalmatia is the principle trading power on the Mediteranean with a sizable population, great wealth, decent land holdings and a navy second only to the Imperial one. As the Imperial authority weakness the political structure of Dalmatia slowly moves towards a republican form drawing inspiration roman history, after all the people living in Dalmatia apart from calling themsleves Dalmatian primarily use the term Latins when representing their identity. The political elite starts to see themselves as the true cultural and political successor of the old Roman Empire since it is the only major part that remain Latin speaking as opposed to Greek.

With the 12th century fast approaching and the Crusades on the horizon the future is bright for Dalmatia.

It would be interesting to see how Dalmatian relations later fare with Austria-Hungary and post-reunification Italy with the remaining South Slavs eventually coalescing into a single state.

Dalmatia in ATL Present Day.png
 
Last edited:
I'm not entirely convinced that a strong Dalmatia wouldn't make a play to take parts of Italy, especially the coast at the Po Delta - they'd be making a lot of income from Adriatic and Mediterranean trade - forcing major trade ports on the Italian Adriatic coast would be to their strategic advantage.
 
Two questions:

1) What office did the leader of Zara hold? Was there a Doge, a Duke, a Rector?
2) Could Zara have defeated the Venetian-Crusader siege during the Fourth Crusade? If not, could the Venetians take it alone if the Fourth Crusade is delayed, goes smoothly or never happens?
 
@MakiRoc They were republican the whole time there were Doges. Read Julius Norwich's A History of Venice. I recently started it. I would recommend to anyone else reading this post. While the Byzantines did originally appoint a "spokesman" for their rule in what became Venice, Venice drifted away due to its support for the HRE and Catholicism.
Now whether they were democratic is another story... essentially "republican" oligarchy.

As for the premise of a powerful Dalmatia, you need Venice gone or destroyed for sure. You could try having the Uskok pirates that menaced Venice in the 1500's get more support from the Ottomans. Perhaps with additional help, they can survive as a culture and grow to incorporate much of the region.
 
Two questions:

1) What office did the leader of Zara hold? Was there a Doge, a Duke, a Rector?
2) Could Zara have defeated the Venetian-Crusader siege during the Fourth Crusade? If not, could the Venetians take it alone if the Fourth Crusade is delayed, goes smoothly or never happens?

1) Comes, Conte or Rector were used as titles. I believe Comes was used at the time of the 4th crusade

2) No they couldn't have beat the crusaders. If Venice acted alone then yes they could have beat them, especially if Hungary came to their aid.

As for the premise of a powerful Dalmatia, you need Venice gone or destroyed for sure. You could try having the Uskok pirates that menaced Venice in the 1500's get more support from the Ottomans. Perhaps with additional help, they can survive as a culture and grow to incorporate much of the region.
I'm a afraid that might be a bit too late of a POD. The Dalmatians (except for Ragusa) are in a decline due to Venitian policies strangling their autonomy, economy and above all their unique culture. Also you have the Ottomans in their back yard. They tolerated Ragusa, but I don't know how they would feel about doing business with a unified Dalmatia. But if the Turks really want to crush Venice then I guess supporting an independent Dalmatia could help that goal.
Uskoks weren't very Ottoman friendly, and not very popular among the Dalmatians either, if my memory serves me right.
That flag of Dalmatia looks like the French one...

Similar indeed. Instead of three fleurs-de-lis you have three big cats with crowns. Now the type of cats used is a source of debate. Lots of people call them lions but in heraldry lions are used for independent entities like kingdoms. Officialy they are leopards, but they don't look like leopards to me, since they have manes. But I'm sliding off topic
 
I'm not entirely convinced that a strong Dalmatia wouldn't make a play to take parts of Italy, especially the coast at the Po Delta - they'd be making a lot of income from Adriatic and Mediterranean trade - forcing major trade ports on the Italian Adriatic coast would be to their strategic advantage.

Possible, wonder how an ATL Dalmatia would deal with fascist Italy (assuming a scenario with butterfly net or few).
 
The HIP mod for CK2 let's you play as Dalmatian culture characters. The only ones actually starting off in game are the Republic of Ragusa... but with the ruler design dlc you can make your own Dalmatian count/Duke/king

Gloria Regni is another mod that adds Dalmatian culture, it also includes Illyro-Roman as a seperate culture as well as a King-tier Illyrian Province if conquered by either Western or Eastern Rome. If you wanna play around with reviving all the roman sub-cultures this mod is perfect for it.
 
Possible, wonder how an ATL Dalmatia would deal with fascist Italy (assuming a scenario with butterfly net or few).

Since the population won't be italianized as in OTL, then fascist Italy probably won't have such strong pretensions towards the eastern shore of the Adriatic. But then again their original motto was something like "Dalmatia was Roman and hence it is Italian".
On the other hand an ATL Dalmatia could be saying the opposite "Italy was Roman and hence it is Dalmatian". Maybe Italy would end up being the worried one;).
 
Top