I get you now. Where I live it’s morning so I’m not quite right in the head yet. I would say a centralization of power during the Ottoman reign. Something to make the people yearn for freedom and autonomy.
AHC Communist Ottoman Revolution
- Thread starter Incanian
- Start date
A church answering to a parliament in a realm in which that church is not the state religion throughout? The ECUSA formed as an offshoot of the Scottish Episcopal Church precisely because the King of Great Britain wasn't its absolute head. Yes, that is also centuries after Henry VIII, but so too is Ottoman use of the caliphate.
Germaniac
Donor
The Ottoman workers movements were based primarily in Rumelia. Salonika, Adrianople, Bitola, Skopje were all cradles of a future proletariat movement in the Ottoman Empire... the 1908 revolution especially allowed these groups to openly participate and grow, however by 1913 these movements were scattered amongst the victorious Balkan League States.
Avoid the Balkan Wars, and the CUP's nationalist wing's subsequent seizure off power, and a Communist Ottoman Empire is very much a possibility... at the very least a Balkan Communist state centered on Salonika or Constantinople.
Avoid the Balkan Wars, and the CUP's nationalist wing's subsequent seizure off power, and a Communist Ottoman Empire is very much a possibility... at the very least a Balkan Communist state centered on Salonika or Constantinople.
Chiming back in about Islam and atheistic communism, I don't think the biggest issue is whether or not the average Muslim in the empire is willing to renounce Islam so much as the fact that the Ottomans control Mecca and Medina and how they would deal with pilgrims both from their state and from others making the Hajj. The Holy Cities might be difficult to control if pious Muslims both within the empire and without don't want to see them governed by a godless regime.
The Communist Ottomans could always let the cities go, but then problems arise from the fact that they don't control them. With more industrialization breaking down traditional barriers, it's entirely possible that more people will renounce their religion, but a lot of them will not. A lot of people will still want to/try to make the Hajj, and some of them could use the trip as an excuse to meet up and conspire against the state. The state could try to stop them, but that would create more unrest, and could lead to the type of brutality that would prompt foreign intervention (since the regime isn't exactly a "European" power, the West will have few qualms about it). More than anything that's the issue if you still want the CommunOttomans to control any land in the Middle East beyond Turkey and maybe Syria.
The Communist Ottomans could always let the cities go, but then problems arise from the fact that they don't control them. With more industrialization breaking down traditional barriers, it's entirely possible that more people will renounce their religion, but a lot of them will not. A lot of people will still want to/try to make the Hajj, and some of them could use the trip as an excuse to meet up and conspire against the state. The state could try to stop them, but that would create more unrest, and could lead to the type of brutality that would prompt foreign intervention (since the regime isn't exactly a "European" power, the West will have few qualms about it). More than anything that's the issue if you still want the CommunOttomans to control any land in the Middle East beyond Turkey and maybe Syria.
Germaniac
Donor
The second part is definitely more speculation, but a communist state griwing out of the european parts of the ottoman empire (excluding asia) isnt out of them realm of possibility
ar-pharazon
Banned
I could see a communist turkey controlling both Istanbul and Anatolia. As well as maybe north Syria and some other areas.
I think communist revolution in these regions would be an extremely violent and protracted and would result in a civil war with differing factions of both left wing and right wing groups as well as multitudes of ethnic and religious separatists as happened in Russia and western intervention would of course be a factor.
But with industrialization occuring and the development of a working class it was certainly possible.
I think communist revolution in these regions would be an extremely violent and protracted and would result in a civil war with differing factions of both left wing and right wing groups as well as multitudes of ethnic and religious separatists as happened in Russia and western intervention would of course be a factor.
But with industrialization occuring and the development of a working class it was certainly possible.
Communist regimes are known to be paranoid, so they’ll work extra hard to make sure that no rebellions of the sort would form. Armed forces stationed in/around the important holy cities could put down revolts before the start, and many “Great Purges” could stop conspirators. Although the socialists would probably rule through benevolence at first, the reign would quickly devolvolve into a rule through fear through the constant challenges to the regime.
About the second part: The commies could industrialize those places first and show the “Glory and Success of Communism” to all that travel, and allow easy roads to show that they care. This will win people over to their side and stabilize the regime. After all, if the communism originated in the Ottoman lands instead of Germany, does it even have to be atheistic? (Maybe I’m being too optimistic about this, but this won’t be a Stalin-communism we’re talking about).
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Perhaps, but the European part of the Empire is not synonymous with the Empire.
about compatibility between Islam and communism, depend what the doctrine? Muslim clergy reject the atheism and secularism, as long as atheism and secularism include in by the ottoman marxist then muslim clergy will not accept it. nationalism can be compromised and included as islamic doctrine like populer idiom in my country " hubb al-wathon minal eeman" love the homeland is part of faith. tan malaka is marxist from minangkabau which itself is conservative muslim society, he blend the marxism and Islam which unfortunately not populer againts marxism-lenism even among marxist ulemas. his party is the only allegged marxism party that survive communist purges. socialism itself accepted by muslims but its relations with communist make them hesitate to open about it here, the opposite liberal identic with western which disliked caused by "western" label notion.
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Russia is almost certain to try to bully the city away from any Turkish, Greek, or other government located there, especially if they think they can do it without firing a shot...
markus meecham
Banned
if there's a revolution while it is still the ottoman empire it will be a time where communist doctrines are still in flux.
i am pretty sure there will be a very strong sufi element in the state.
i don't see any reason for communism-as-implemented would look the same as it was in the urss, as @Koprulu Mustafa Pasha said, a more industrialized ottomans (which would be a good idea for a revolutionary movement)would change the dynamics of the whole region including russia.
would we see something like the Tashkent Soviet,but with wholehearted local muslim support? am i talking hella bullshit?
maybe to both?
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