AHC and WI: Danish as Holy Roman emperor and Kalmar Union implication

John7755 يوحنا · Jun 17, 2020

The challenge if you choose to accept is to with a POD in 1300 CE, create a scenario wherein the Holy Roman Emperor is the king of Denmark. Stipulations, are that the King do Denmark must have his highest non Imperial title, being the Danish crown. Once this timeline is created, what would be the board's opinion upon the Danish relation with the Empire and in the future of the Empire, as a growing Germano-Danish realm (including the Low Country of course).

Likewise, considering this situation, assuming Denmark attains this position, what is the effect upon Scandinavia in light of the eventual Kalmar Union? My assumption, is that the Union will not form, yet how will the Swedish and Norwegian states interact with a Danish Emperor that by nature of its position is at least moderately friendly to the Hanseatic League.

EMT · Jun 17, 2020

John7755 يوحنا said:
The challenge if you choose to accept is to with a POD in 1300 CE, create a scenario wherein the Holy Roman Emperor is the king of Denmark. Stipulations, are that the King do Denmark must have his highest non Imperial title, being the Danish crown. Once this timeline is created, what would be the board's opinion upon the Danish relation with the Empire and in the future of the Empire, as a growing Germano-Danish realm (including the Low Country of course).

Likewise, considering this situation, assuming Denmark attains this position, what is the effect upon Scandinavia in light of the eventual Kalmar Union? My assumption, is that the Union will not form, yet how will the Swedish and Norwegian states interact with a Danish Emperor that by nature of its position is at least moderately friendly to the Hanseatic League.

If the PoD is 1300, I think you need a scenario that either cripples Austria or makes them seem unreliable to the rest of the HRE. As well as a scenario that makes Denmark seem like the natural champion to turn to to defend the interests of the Empire instead of say, France, Hungary, or Poland. Now, what would be a good candidate to knock out Austria of contention while leaving the Danes looking like the best candidate? I don't think there's many scenarios where the French aren't the go-to unless they're also a part of the threat; I think by default you need to knock out both France and Austria from contention. So maybe some sort of French-Hungarian axis that neuters Austria(akin to how Matthias Corvinus took part of Austria) and center their alliance on expanding into the HRE and seeing the Emperorship as a common enemy of theirs. This would leave the only major powers to turn to(presuming no Spanish Hapsburgs ever being a thing) to be either Poland or Denmark/the Kalmar Union, with Denmark plausibly coming out ahead due to circumstance?

I don't have much more to add to intra-Scandinavian politics, all I've really got is a premise to get a Danish Emperor elected

Gwyain · Jun 17, 2020

John7755 يوحنا said:
The challenge if you choose to accept is to with a POD in 1300 CE, create a scenario wherein the Holy Roman Emperor is the king of Denmark. Stipulations, are that the King do Denmark must have his highest non Imperial title, being the Danish crown. Once this timeline is created, what would be the board's opinion upon the Danish relation with the Empire and in the future of the Empire, as a growing Germano-Danish realm (including the Low Country of course).

Likewise, considering this situation, assuming Denmark attains this position, what is the effect upon Scandinavia in light of the eventual Kalmar Union? My assumption, is that the Union will not form, yet how will the Swedish and Norwegian states interact with a Danish Emperor that by nature of its position is at least moderately friendly to the Hanseatic League.

My suggestion would be for a bit later PoD, around the Golden Bull, so lets say right at 1356. Denmark wasn't in a great place until around 1340 under Valdemar IV, and I think putting things off till the Golden Bull makes imperial politics easier with defined electors. The PoD would be Margaret being betrothed to Otto V of Bavaria*, instead of her OTL bethrothal to Haakon of Norway. OTL that was done to get Skania back for Denmark, which turned out to be irrelevant, Valdemar went to war for it anyways, and got Gotland out of it too. TTL have Valdemar just declare war without the betrothal, and marry Margaret into Germany. Fast forward a bit, Margaret and Otto can have some kids, and Valdemar dies around 1375 as OTL, and Margaret being Margaret gets herself elected queen of Denmark. When she dies her son with Otto is King of Denmark and Elector of Brandenburg. This has the side effect of maintaining another strong Wittlesbach domain in the HRE, which should allow the Wittlesbach to play imperial politics more effectively and potentially gain the Imperial title. It also completely prevents the Kalmar union from happening since Margaret is married elsewhere.

* Who after 1351 is Margrave of Brandenburg and not in fact a Duke of Bavaria any longer, along with his brother Louis (who would die in 1365 leaving Otto as sole ruler).

Zulfurium · Jun 25, 2020

My PoD was a lot later (in the 1500s), but other than that I basically accomplished this in Their Cross to Bear - Christian II's son Johannes (Hans) ends up succeeding to the Habsburg domains and reclaims the Nordic titles, including both Denmark-Norway and Sweden.

Jan Olbracht · Jun 25, 2020

Zulfurium said:
My PoD was a lot later (in the 1500s), but other than that I basically accomplished this in Their Cross to Bear - Christian II's son Johannes (Hans) ends up succeeding to the Habsburg domains and reclaims the Nordic titles, including both Denmark-Norway and Sweden.

Perhaps kids of Juana la Loca are less healthy and only Isabella happened to live long enough to have kids, that way Oldenburgs could inherit Low Countries and Austria in addition to Imperial title.

Old1812 · Jun 26, 2020

Gwyain said:
My suggestion would be for a bit later PoD, around the Golden Bull, so lets say right at 1356. Denmark wasn't in a great place until around 1340 under Valdemar IV, and I think putting things off till the Golden Bull makes imperial politics easier with defined electors. The PoD would be Margaret being betrothed to Otto V of Bavaria*, instead of her OTL bethrothal to Haakon of Norway. OTL that was done to get Skania back for Denmark, which turned out to be irrelevant, Valdemar went to war for it anyways, and got Gotland out of it too. TTL have Valdemar just declare war without the betrothal, and marry Margaret into Germany. Fast forward a bit, Margaret and Otto can have some kids, and Valdemar dies around 1375 as OTL, and Margaret being Margaret gets herself elected queen of Denmark. When she dies her son with Otto is King of Denmark and Elector of Brandenburg. This has the side effect of maintaining another strong Wittlesbach domain in the HRE, which should allow the Wittlesbach to play imperial politics more effectively and potentially gain the Imperial title. It also completely prevents the Kalmar union from happening since Margaret is married elsewhere.

* Who after 1351 is Margrave of Brandenburg and not in fact a Duke of Bavaria any longer, along with his brother Louis (who would die in 1365 leaving Otto as sole ruler).

As it seems the greatest rival for the Estridsens will be the Luxembourgs, this makes me wonder: about how much more valuable was Bohemia compared to Brandenburg, in terms of economy and population?

Gwyain · Jun 26, 2020

Old1812 said:
As it seems the greatest rival for the Estridsens will be the Luxembourgs, this makes me wonder: about how much more valuable was Bohemia compared to Brandenburg, in terms of economy and population?

Oh, Bohemia overwhelmingly. Brandenburg was poor and underpopulated until well into the Early Modern period, in the Middle Ages it’s worse. Bohemia meanwhile has a pretty solid urban merchant class, valuable mineral deposits and so on. Brandenburg's value in my scenario isn’t so much the land itself, but its Electoral vote. Denmark is going to remain the center of the state and its wealth, but Brandenburg allows them to enter imperial politics easily.

kasumigenx · Jun 26, 2020

Or have Denmark inherit Bohemia...it is possible if the son of Dagmar/Marketa survived...

Gwyain · Jun 26, 2020

kasumigenx said:
Or have Denmark inherit Bohemia...it is possible if the son of Dagmar/Marketa survived...

Valdemar II's wife? Isn't that before the PoD though?

kasumigenx · Jun 26, 2020

Gwyain said:
Valdemar II's wife? Isn't that before the PoD though?

Yes.

Mikestone8 · Jun 27, 2020

Gwyain said:
Oh, Bohemia overwhelmingly. Brandenburg was poor and underpopulated until well into the Early Modern period, in the Middle Ages it’s worse. Bohemia meanwhile has a pretty solid urban merchant class, valuable mineral deposits and so on. Brandenburg's value in my scenario isn’t so much the land itself, but its Electoral vote. Denmark is going to remain the center of the state and its wealth, but Brandenburg allows them to enter imperial politics easily.

OTOH Otto V of Brandenburg was Regent of Bohemia during the minority of Wenceslas II, so well-placed to claim the throne had Wenceslas died young. So you have a union of Boheia and Brandenburg, and maybe a Damish marriage later?

Gwyain · Jun 27, 2020

Mikestone8 said:
OTOH Otto V of Brandenburg was Regent of Bohemia during the minority of Wenceslas II, so well-placed to claim the throne had Wenceslas died young. So you have a union of Boheia and Brandenburg, and maybe a Damish marriage later?

Sure I suppose. I like Margaret since that's one of the few times where Denmark is inherited by a woman, and given that electorates descend in male line primogeniture, you need a female inheritance for Denmark. There's obviously some other possible points, but Margaret also prevents the Kalmar union, which I think will help to orient Denmark more towards Germany, plus Margaret is just awesome. Other territory in the Empire is nice, but it isn't really needed in my opinion to get a Danish Emperor as long as they have the votes.

That said, I think a Denmark-Brandenburg will certainly focus on acquiring territories near it, if for nothing else than to connect its territories. Places like Meckenburg, the Pomeranias, and Saxe-Lauenburg, would definitely be on their Christmas List. Lubeck and Hamburg are also huge targets for a Danish monarch in general, a Danish Emperor even more so. Long term, a Wittlesbach Denmark is actually pretty well placed to unite Germany/the HRE, they have a nice seat of power in Denmark itself, and they have family who hold good sized territories scattered in the Empire. Bavaria and the Palatinate are the big ones, but could also include Holland or the Ruhr area depending on how things shake out. If any of the other lines die out... well, Denmark is there to inherit them.

One consequence of a union like this is I think that Danish is going to die out as a language, the Danish monarchs are going to be focusing a lot on acquiring territory in Germany in my opinion, and will pretty quickly become the prestige language in the crown's lands. Between the aristocracy and the merchant class in Denmark plus the sizable population in Germany, I think that'll doom it long term.

kasumigenx · Jun 27, 2020

Another would be Lorraine gaining Denmark and still marrying into Austria...

The Professor · Jun 27, 2020

Gwyain said:
One consequence of a union like this is I think that Danish is going to die out as a language, the Danish monarchs are going to be focusing a lot on acquiring territory in Germany in my opinion, and will pretty quickly become the prestige language in the crown's lands. Between the aristocracy and the merchant class in Denmark plus the sizable population in Germany, I think that'll doom it long term.

I wouldn't be that sure.
High German did better OTL because of the preponderance/dominance of Southern Germans in the imperial offices. Then of course Luther popularised the Saxon version.
Modern Danish and Swedish show a lot borrowed from Low German due to having had a large number of Northern Germans in their nobility.
So TTL you'll see Middle Danish become prestigious in the north of the Empire and it will borrow a lot more words from the north and south corners of the German spectrum.
This Danish dominance would probably also raise/maintain Low German albeit likely with some Scandinavian borrowings.

Mikestone8 · Jun 27, 2020

Small point. Christopher III of Denma rk was the grandson of HR Emperor Rupert of the Palatinate. So if he lives longer and the Habsburg line dies out the Wittelsbachs might be in with a chance

Gwyain · Jun 27, 2020

The Professor said:
I wouldn't be that sure.
High German did better OTL because of the preponderance/dominance of Southern Germans in the imperial offices. Then of course Luther popularised the Saxon version.
Modern Danish and Swedish show a lot borrowed from Low German due to having had a large number of Northern Germans in their nobility.
So TTL you'll see Middle Danish become prestigious in the north of the Empire and it will borrow a lot more words from the north and south corners of the German spectrum.
This Danish dominance would probably also raise/maintain Low German albeit likely with some Scandinavian borrowings.

I should probably have stated that I think it will die out to Low German instead of High German, I'm just not sure that Denmark will have the demographics to keep Danish alive in the face of a middle class that already tended to favour Low Saxon anyways, combined with a nobility that when tied heavily into the empire, will probably also favour it. It may not outright die, but I can see Danish in a similar place to Scots Gaelic by today.

Old1812 · Jun 27, 2020

Gwyain said:
I should probably have stated that I think it will die out to Low German instead of High German, I'm just not sure that Denmark will have the demographics to keep Danish alive in the face of a middle class that already tended to favour Low Saxon anyways, combined with a nobility that when tied heavily into the empire, will probably also favour it. It may not outright die, but I can see Danish in a similar place to Scots Gaelic by today.

I doubt it'll be stamped out entirely, I'm sure there will still be some speakers, especially on the islands.

Gwyain · Jun 27, 2020

Mikestone8 said:
Small point. Christopher III of Denma rk was the grandson of HR Emperor Rupert of the Palatinate. So if he lives longer and the Habsburg line dies out the Wittelsbachs might be in with a chance

Christopher isn't part of the Electoral line though, that's Frederick/Phillip in the Palatinate. Even if Emperor Frederick dies and Christopher lives, the Palatinate line is more likely to get it than him.

Old1812 said:
I doubt it'll be stamped out entirely, I'm sure there will still be some speakers, especially on the islands.

Potentially, but I wouldn't underestimate the effect a few centuries of dominance can have, even on isolated communities. Irish and Scots Gaelic both came pretty close to extinction OTL, and the 14th century is earlier than when either of those came under real pressure from English.