After generalplan ost

How long would it take Eastern Europe to recover from general plan ost

  • 20 years

    Votes: 6 5.9%
  • 40 years

    Votes: 12 11.8%
  • 60 years

    Votes: 51 50.0%
  • Other write in

    Votes: 33 32.4%

  • Total voters
    102

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
But Generalplan Ost relies on Hitler being alive to implement it.
Given he had Parkinsons, who knows what else, and Theo Morell as a doctor, i suspects he'll be dead no later than 1952 in the case of a Nazi victory TL.
A lot of this depends on the War. If the Reich rolls over the Soviets (which is needed for this scenario to take place) it is entirely possible that the progression of Hitler's illness would have markedly slower due to reduced stress and less need for medical "assistance".

It would also largely depend on who was his successor. Himmler and Goebbels, in particular, were even more antisemitic than Hitler himself, the rest of the senior leadership had strong dislike of Jews, but a few of them were more "practical" (or greedy). So a lot would depend on the succession (which would have been... interesting).
 
I chose Other because even if, due to practical considerations, less than 50% of the quotas of Generalplan Ost are murdered and many of the others either become honorary aryans or are kept well enough fed to be able to permanently work on the farms of the German settlers, where, especially in the case of young and beautiful female slav farm hands miscegenation is next to certain to happen, the demographic as well as cultural devestations brought about by such a partial implementation would still be so massive that it would take at least 10 generations for eastern Europe to even just partially recover.
 

Gedador

Banned
Generalplan Ost requires a Reich. Given their tendency to infighting, the Reich wouldn't have lasted past the early 60s.
This is true however the Reich wouldn't even need to Last Pass the 60s because Mao killed 45 million people in 3 years with a famine and the Nazis can you do something similar to that easily by destroying all their food and wedding the winter do its work. So if they win in 1942-43 they'd be done by the early 50s.Around a decade or so
 
I would see this as a sequence of questions.

1. Could Nazi Germany win the war?
The odds were somewhat against them, but they could very well have won. There are many scenarios in which they could.

1A. A British separate peace

This could happen for many reasons. The British/French might renew "peace in our time" during the Phoney War. Alternatively a peace treaty after Dunkirk, or a successful invasion of Britain, or by attrition before Operation Barbarossa. If Britain was neutral, they might re-enter the war, but at a much later stage. If Britain was occupied or neutral, the US would be unlikely to enter the war, and wouldn't have a forward base if they did, and there would be a second Phoney War where Germany couldn't attack the US, nor the US Germany. With their backs free, not having to fight a two-front war, the odds in the East would be far better.

1B. A Soviet collapse
The campaign, delayed by Greece, could have started earlier in the year and the Blitzkrieg could have gained much more ground before being bogged down by Russian winter. If the objectives of Leningrad and Moscow were taken, it would be very hard for the Soviet forces to fight on and rebuild their production.

1C. Nuclear Nazis
If the Reich had had nuclear weapons in production, together with their rocket weapons, surrender would be likely. Alternatively nuclear annihilation of major cities and/or forces.

2. Would Nazi Germany have the genocidal drive and capability?
The Holocaust in OTL should show that they did. Only losing the war stopped that genocide. If they were not at risk of losing the war (1) the Holocaust would have been the pilot project. Experiences from that would be applied in Eastern Europe. Anti-Slavic hatred was not as universal in the Nazi party as antisemitism, but widespread enough, and it went to the top. The plans for Lebensraum was deeply founded.

However, a genocide of the majority population is more challenging than the minority, where they could use local hatred of minorities to their advantage. But 20th century history has shown it can be done, the Nazis wanted to do it, and there would be nobody to stop them. But it would be most easily done in Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Western Soviet Union. Particularly the Asian part of the Soviet Union would be hard to maintain control over, let alone organise a genocide, so the people living there would probably escape that fate. The other survivors would be slave labourers.

3. Would the Third Reich last long?
Long enough for this genocide, almost certainly. By the end of the war it had lasted 12 years, and it could easily last another 12. Would it survive the death of Hitler, or him becoming so erratic to not be capable of leading a Nazi Empire? Possibly. There could be an internal coup, keeping Hitler on as a figurehead (bit like Mao after The Great Leap forward. There would likely be a Cold War between the Nazi Empire, the US and other parties. The alliance with Japan would likely cool when not mutually beneficial. The story of the ongoing genocide would leak out. There would be outright rebellions as soon as they had any chance of success.

4. Would the Nazi Empire lose the Cold War, if so when?
They probably would, but it would most likely take decades. To pick a number, say 1965.

5. What would be the aftermath of the victory?
There were more vindictive voices after 1945, especially from France, as it had been after 1918. These would pale to the reaction after a horrendous genocide like this. The winning parties would agree that there should never again be a Germany. The country would be divided into multiple parts, something along the post-war model in OTL, but more permanent. The German industrial base would be destroyed, and Germany reduced to multiple agrarian colonies. Speaking German would likely be forbidden.

6. How long would it take Eastern and Western Europe to recover?
Stalin and the Soviet Union would no longer be a force to be considered. Communism might still be, but without the Soviet Union it would be less acute as a threat. Mao and the communists wouldn't win the civil war without Stalin's support, the nationalists would win the civil war. Without the Red Threat initiatives like the Marshall Plan would be less compelling. Colonies would have become independent during the Third Reich, or in its wake. Britain and France would not be able to maintain their old colonies. Reconstruction costs would be higher. The US would be weaker as well, but in much better position to recover, much like the 1950s, but Europe would lag (also slowing US growth).

Relative to OTL Eastern Europe would be non-totalitarian by 1965 rather than 1990, but after 25 years of Nazi tyranny, more destructive to society than the slower deterioration of Soviet socialism. On its own we should be about the same level by now, but in addition Europe as a whole would be worse off, and then there is the genocide. The aftermath of WWII in OTL gives an indication. E.g. in Czechoslovakia Sudeten Germans were evicted, a de facto ethnic cleansing. The areas in question have been lagging ever since, but some of the cities have been doing well. We could expect something similar in post-genocidal Eastern Europe.
 
The Nazis would have to openly scream "we are exterminating all of eastern Europe and we are PROUD OF IT!", which means that another war with the United States becomes inevitable and (see calbear)
 
I would see this as a sequence of questions.

1. Could Nazi Germany win the war?
The odds were somewhat against them, but they could very well have won. There are many scenarios in which they could.

1A. A British separate peace

This could happen for many reasons. The British/French might renew "peace in our time" during the Phoney War. Alternatively a peace treaty after Dunkirk, or a successful invasion of Britain, or by attrition before Operation Barbarossa. If Britain was neutral, they might re-enter the war, but at a much later stage. If Britain was occupied or neutral, the US would be unlikely to enter the war, and wouldn't have a forward base if they did, and there would be a second Phoney War where Germany couldn't attack the US, nor the US Germany. With their backs free, not having to fight a two-front war, the odds in the East would be far better.

1B. A Soviet collapse
The campaign, delayed by Greece, could have started earlier in the year and the Blitzkrieg could have gained much more ground before being bogged down by Russian winter. If the objectives of Leningrad and Moscow were taken, it would be very hard for the Soviet forces to fight on and rebuild their production.

1C. Nuclear Nazis
If the Reich had had nuclear weapons in production, together with their rocket weapons, surrender would be likely. Alternatively nuclear annihilation of major cities and/or forces.

2. Would Nazi Germany have the genocidal drive and capability?
The Holocaust in OTL should show that they did. Only losing the war stopped that genocide. If they were not at risk of losing the war (1) the Holocaust would have been the pilot project. Experiences from that would be applied in Eastern Europe. Anti-Slavic hatred was not as universal in the Nazi party as antisemitism, but widespread enough, and it went to the top. The plans for Lebensraum was deeply founded.

However, a genocide of the majority population is more challenging than the minority, where they could use local hatred of minorities to their advantage. But 20th century history has shown it can be done, the Nazis wanted to do it, and there would be nobody to stop them. But it would be most easily done in Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Western Soviet Union. Particularly the Asian part of the Soviet Union would be hard to maintain control over, let alone organise a genocide, so the people living there would probably escape that fate. The other survivors would be slave labourers.

3. Would the Third Reich last long?
Long enough for this genocide, almost certainly. By the end of the war it had lasted 12 years, and it could easily last another 12. Would it survive the death of Hitler, or him becoming so erratic to not be capable of leading a Nazi Empire? Possibly. There could be an internal coup, keeping Hitler on as a figurehead (bit like Mao after The Great Leap forward. There would likely be a Cold War between the Nazi Empire, the US and other parties. The alliance with Japan would likely cool when not mutually beneficial. The story of the ongoing genocide would leak out. There would be outright rebellions as soon as they had any chance of success.

4. Would the Nazi Empire lose the Cold War, if so when?
They probably would, but it would most likely take decades. To pick a number, say 1965.

5. What would be the aftermath of the victory?
There were more vindictive voices after 1945, especially from France, as it had been after 1918. These would pale to the reaction after a horrendous genocide like this. The winning parties would agree that there should never again be a Germany. The country would be divided into multiple parts, something along the post-war model in OTL, but more permanent. The German industrial base would be destroyed, and Germany reduced to multiple agrarian colonies. Speaking German would likely be forbidden.

6. How long would it take Eastern and Western Europe to recover?
Stalin and the Soviet Union would no longer be a force to be considered. Communism might still be, but without the Soviet Union it would be less acute as a threat. Mao and the communists wouldn't win the civil war without Stalin's support, the nationalists would win the civil war. Without the Red Threat initiatives like the Marshall Plan would be less compelling. Colonies would have become independent during the Third Reich, or in its wake. Britain and France would not be able to maintain their old colonies. Reconstruction costs would be higher. The US would be weaker as well, but in much better position to recover, much like the 1950s, but Europe would lag (also slowing US growth).

Relative to OTL Eastern Europe would be non-totalitarian by 1965 rather than 1990, but after 25 years of Nazi tyranny, more destructive to society than the slower deterioration of Soviet socialism. On its own we should be about the same level by now, but in addition Europe as a whole would be worse off, and then there is the genocide. The aftermath of WWII in OTL gives an indication. E.g. in Czechoslovakia Sudeten Germans were evicted, a de facto ethnic cleansing. The areas in question have been lagging ever since, but some of the cities have been doing well. We could expect something similar in post-genocidal Eastern Europe.

I have to say, whats written here is pretty accurate and believable.
But, I have a few points to address.

1A. Everything's fine but OP Seelowe. OP Seelowe is impossible. Period

1B. Soviet collapse can only occur if the people believe that communism is not worth fighting for or Stalin dies somehow. If the Nazis want to do GP Ost, then they will not have support from those that would otherwise be their (temporary?) allies, i.e. Ukrainian nationalists, Baltic nationalists, Cossacks, anyone who lost friends and family in the Great Purge, etc.
As we have seen in OTL, the Einsatzgruppen will only lead to a whole shit ton of Soviet partisans which make the German supply situation even worse than it already is.
As a friend once mentioned, Nazism was fucked from its roots and OTL the course of WW2 was set before Hitler could say "Nein".

1C. The Nazi regarded nuclear weapons as Jewish science. And they didn't like the thought of using it either. Plus the German nuclear program was underfunded and the heavy water plant in Norway was destroyed early in the war by a UK commando raid. And many of the researchers who actually understood nuclear science were Jewish.

2. Seems realistic, except how the hell is Germany getting over the Urals? Those mountains are a natural defense line that can be easily held by partisans. Just look at US forces fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan. And remember that all the high tech stuff is not available to Germany given they reach the Urals in the late 40s, early 50s.

Everything else, I can accept and agree with.
So yeah, that my 2 pfennigs.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
I disagree on a point. OP Sea Lowe is far from impossible they were very near to launching it but sadly didn't. In the other hand OP Sea Lowe succeeding is quite a different thing...
 
The Nazis would have to openly scream "we are exterminating all of eastern Europe and we are PROUD OF IT!", which means that another war with the United States becomes inevitable and (see calbear)

The Nazis tried (poorly) to keep the Final Solution hidden during the war. Himmler referred to it as "a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of."

Now, the Nazis never tried to hide that they were resettling Germans in the East, and that they intended to settler vastly greater numbers in the future. But German propaganda at no point openly declared intentions to destroy the natives. Instead, propaganda emphasized that the Nazis were liberating the people from Bolshevism, and that the people were benefiting from German occupation.

Why would that change after a Nazi victory? Evidence will continue to escape about atrocities, but the Germans would continue to deny them, or would blame them on partisans and bandits.

I also don't think most Americans would care about the atrocities anyway. Reports of the Final Solution were published in Allied newspapers, but on the whole, the response of the public was largely muted. In a Nazi victory, the atrocities of the Reich would be viewed as bad, but most citizens of Allied countries wouldn't care very much about them. How many people today care about the Rohingya, for example? The Jews and others would simply be "a faraway people, about whom we know nothing"
 
We are talking over 200 million deaths. It would take several centuries for the Eastern European population to recover.
Eastern European culture would have been destroyed, not with just all the deaths but with the purposeful destruction of Eastern European culture among the Survivors by the Nazis with they plan to Germanize the few remaining survivors.
Eastern Europe would become a point of interest for future archaeologists and art historians trying to recover anything of value a future Generations
 
If it collapsed in 40 years (i.e. ~1973), there might be a chance of some sort of Slavic society/culture to survive, although it is questionable how much of it would be non-Russian, since the Russian Slavic population would be the overwhelming majority.
What about the Slovaks, Croats, and Bulgarians? Did Hitler intend to turn on his client states?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
What about the Slovaks, Croats, and Bulgarians? Did Hitler intend to turn on his client states?
The Slovaks were to be handled in such a way that the "racially valuable" part of the population (again, fair hair/blue eyes "Aryan" in appearance) would be preserved the rest would be "removed".

The Croats were going to be allowed to create a puppet state. The heavy action was against the Serbs and Slovenians, all of whom were to be ethnically cleansed/liquidated. Bulgaria was not, to my knowledge, mentioned in any of the surviving versions of Generalplan Ost.
 
The question isn't if Generalplan Ost could be carried out.

Yes, the Nazi regime faced rough times ahead even if they won the war, economically and politically.

Here's the thing... they don't need to survive too long to carry it out. Just look at what they did in Poland or the Holocaust over a span of six years, WHILE FIGHTING AN EXISTENTIAL WAR ON TWO FRONTS.

Think of the relatively brief time it took for the Turks to carry out the Armenian genocide, Stalin, the Holodomer, Mao the Great Leap Forward/Cultural Revolution. Hell, look how much damage the Khemer Rogue did in less than half a decade.

Be it five years or twenty before the fall, the Nazis would have enough time to carry out thier designs for Eastern Europe.

The question is not IF they could carry it out. Its what it looks like when they're done. That is the terrifying question we must answer.

Frankly, I have been trying to figure out just what post-Nazi Eastern Europe would look like... hell, if there could even BE a post-Nazi Eastern Europe. Some of these places, from Krakow to Kiev to Minsk, to Riga, will have been Germanized for most of a generation, and I'd wager there wouldn't be enough locals left to contest the claims. There's a possibility when the dust settles from the collapse/regime change, this is as much a part of Germany as Bavaria or Thuringia.

As for the rest? Unless the Nazis really push those Aryan-ization standards to the limits, we're talking about best case 50% of the population gone, likely even more.

70 years after the end of WWII, the world Jewish population is STILL lower than what it was before the rise of the Nazis. Forget decades, we're talking about a national trauma that will take generations to come close to heeling, if it ever does.

We could see a "Russian" statelet (likely many more) post Nazis - one centered in Moskau, with a population smaller than most US states, that speaks a glorified German dialect, and uses the Latin Alphabet.

The so-called Thousand Year Reich would never last a millenium... but in this case, its legacy would.
 
The Slovaks were to be handled in such a way that the "racially valuable" part of the population (again, fair hair/blue eyes "Aryan" in appearance) would be preserved the rest would be "removed".

The Croats were going to be allowed to create a puppet state. The heavy action was against the Serbs and Slovenians, all of whom were to be ethnically cleansed/liquidated. Bulgaria was not, to my knowledge, mentioned in any of the surviving versions of Generalplan Ost.
How about the Balts and the Finns?
 
But sadly didn't?
Why do you consider the fact that Germany never launched Seelowe to be a sad thing?

It would shorten the war considerably due to the loss of German resources for no benefit and at minimal losses for the Western allies. That’s the usual reason for it to be a sad thing.

A launched operation isn’t a successful operation.
 
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