After generalplan ost

How long would it take Eastern Europe to recover from general plan ost

  • 20 years

    Votes: 6 5.9%
  • 40 years

    Votes: 12 11.8%
  • 60 years

    Votes: 51 50.0%
  • Other write in

    Votes: 33 32.4%

  • Total voters
    102

Gedador

Banned
Let's say that the third Reich wins in Europe all the way to the Ural mountains and they complete generalplan ost . What would happen after they collapse in the 50's and 60's due to being evil monsters. As for example in Eastern Europe around 141 million people would die how would they ever recover from being decimated like this. Could they ever forgive being made in to slaves and nearly exterminated would Germany be broken up by the USA due to there crimes against humanity as around 5.1 m chezks 10.5 million Jews and Roma's 29 million polish 57million Russians 25.3 million Ukrainians 6.1 million belorussians 2.1 million lithuawanians and 1.4 million Estonians and Latvians and 5 million Serbians would die. Would Western Europe be treated the same way as the east as I never found any plans for Western Europe.

For this debate I have only one rule no Nazi apologist if you do that I will call the mods on you also this is my first Tl so leave critisims.
 
I don’t see a scenario where OTL Germany conquers the Soviet Union, but I’ll still answer this. Western Europe would have been treated relatively better. I’m not sure that the Germans would collapse though. As awful as it is, I think that they’d mostly be successful in ethnically cleansing a Eastern Europe.
 

Gedador

Banned
I don’t see a scenario where OTL Germany conquers the Soviet Union, but I’ll still answer this. Western Europe would have been treated relatively better. I’m not sure that the Germans would collapse though. As awful as it is, I think that they’d mostly be successful in ethnically cleansing a Eastern Europe.
I think that the ussr could have been bested it would have just been extremely difficult as for Germany collapsing I have two reasons for believing this 1 murdering 141 million people is going to drain any empire especially one as evil like Nazis.and 2 I just don't want to believe that any creatures as evil as the Nazis can I run a successful country for More than 30 years. Thougha Western Europe why would the West be treated nicer than Eastern Europe as it was due to France and Belgium that Germany Lost world war 1 so I don't see those two nation's getting off easier then the Russians who would lose 75% of their population if the Nazis won.
 
I think that the ussr could have been bested it would have just been extremely difficult as for Germany collapsing I have two reasons for believing this 1 murdering 141 million people is going to drain any empire especially one as evil like Nazis.and 2 I just don't want to believe that any creatures as evil as the Nazis can I run a successful country for More than 30 years. Thougha Western Europe why would the West be treated nicer than Eastern Europe as it was due to France and Belgium that Germany Lost world war 1 so I don't see those two nation's getting off easier then the Russians who would lose 75% of their population if the Nazis won.
1) I don’t think that they’d win. They were significantly better at the tactical and operational level of war, but they failed when it came to logistics, strategy and grand strategy. It was part of the culture of their officer corps inherited from Prussia. The Prussians were surrounded by much larger and more powerful countries, so they built a tradition based initiative in their junior officers and NCO’s and an almost Spartan dedication to training and discipline. This gave them a mixed record originally, but after the unification of Germany granted them a larger populations and their industrialization, they became Europe’s dominant power. As early as late 1941, the Germans were facing fuel shortages. At best, they could scare Stalin into a Brest Litovsk style peace settlement before the Soviets expose the myth of German invincibility.

2) The Western Europeans would be treated better, because Hitler respected their achievements. The same thing is true for the Southern Europeans. He was above all a Germanic supremacist, but he didn’t hate them for racial reasons like he hated the Slavs.
 
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Gedador

Banned
1) I don’t think that they’d win. They were significantly better at the tactical and operational level of war, but they failed when it came to logistics, strategy and grand strategy. It was part of the culture of their officer corps inherited from Prussia. The Prussians were surrounded by much larger and more powerful countries, so they built a tradition based initiative in their junior officers and NCO’s and an almost Spartan dedication to training and discipline. This gave them a mixed record originally, but after the unification of Germany granted them a larger populations and their industrialization, they became Europe’s dominant power. As early as late 1941, the Germans were facing fuel shortages. At best, they could scare Stalin into a Brest Litovsk style peace settlement before the Soviets expose the myth of German invincibility.

2) The Western Europeans would be treated better, because Hitler respected their achievements. The same thing is true for the Southern Europeans. He was above all a Germanic supremacist, but he didn’t hate them for racial reasons like he hated the Slavs.
1 okay yeah like I see what you were saying I was thinking something like that Anglo American Nazi war with how the Nazis could have won in the east at least.2 okay yeah I just checked on Google and I found that they were right I was wrong my bad the reason I'm asking about this if I'm planning to do a post nazi TL and I wanted to know if how the Slavic nations would be able to recover from this so how long do you think it would take for all the nations to recover from general plan ost so do you think around 40 or so years to recover from all the damage and having 141 million people killed due to insane racism
 
How do the beneficiaries of Ost defeat the SS, police battalions, heer, etc etc.

Assuming that the United States and United Kingdom fund Germany in order to achieve a permanent war around the Urals; why does German bureaucratic administration suddenly become a single line rather than a competition for attention and resources?

German administrative unity and competence is not a credible speculation.
 

Gedador

Banned
How do the beneficiaries of Ost defeat the SS, police battalions, heer, etc etc.

Assuming that the United States and United Kingdom fund Germany in order to achieve a permanent war around the Urals; why does German bureaucratic administration suddenly become a single line rather than a competition for attention and resources?

German administrative unity and competence is not a credible speculation.
I'm sorry ? I'm not quite sure what you're saying did I say anything about a single line for a bureaucracy for general plan ost and what do you mean by beneficiaries of the plan. What I was mainly asking was how long would it take for the Slavic people to recover from that genocide personally I think somewhere around 40 to 60 years though I could be wrong.
 
I'm sorry ? I'm not quite sure what you're saying did I say anything about a single line for a bureaucracy for general plan ost and what do you mean by beneficiaries of the plan. What I was mainly asking was how long would it take for the Slavic people to recover from that genocide personally I think somewhere around 40 to 60 years though I could be wrong.

He says that Nazi German bureaucracy was full of infighting and different factions trying to get the better of each other.
 
Germany would not do General Plan Ost.

As historically they would develop multiple conflicting plans, implement them through multiple competing structures, and on the ground staff would regularly show creative and horrific initiative.

The speculation involves one ridiculous conceit: Germany controlling everything West of the urals. That’s essential for the speculation.

But “Ost” wasn’t how Germans went about attempting to annihilate entire ethnic groups.

Given that the core of this speculation is around recovery from attempted genocide; using a completely fantastic model of German genocide doesn’t make any sense.
 

Gedador

Banned
Germany would not do General Plan Ost.

As historically they would develop multiple conflicting plans, implement them through multiple competing structures, and on the ground staff would regularly show creative and horrific initiative.

The speculation involves one ridiculous conceit: Germany controlling everything West of the urals. That’s essential for the speculation.

But “Ost” wasn’t how Germans went about attempting to annihilate entire ethnic groups.

Given that the core of this speculation is around recovery from attempted genocide; using a completely fantastic model of German genocide doesn’t make any sense.
so you're saying that they wouldn't use general plan ost so how far do you think the Germans could expand at the absolute most with out being ASB as I planted eventually doing a a timeline about it and I want to be somewhat accurate. As I was thinking of something the Anglo American Nazi war so I thought they can make it to the urals that would just be extremely difficult but not ASB.
 
I think that the ussr could have been bested it would have just been extremely difficult as for Germany collapsing I have two reasons for believing this 1 murdering 141 million people is going to drain any empire especially one as evil like Nazis.and 2 I just don't want to believe that any creatures as evil as the Nazis can I run a successful country for More than 30 years. Thougha Western Europe why would the West be treated nicer than Eastern Europe as it was due to France and Belgium that Germany Lost world war 1 so I don't see those two nation's getting off easier then the Russians who would lose 75% of their population if the Nazis won.

The collapse of USSR has created "Nazis would fall down quickly even if left by themselves" myth. After all, USSR did not collapse after Stalin until almost another 40 years, the Kardashians (Kims) are still running North Korea, China has evolved from Maoist mayhem etc. Evil falls down inevitably in Star Wars, but not in real life.

If the Nazis for some reason, say due to credible nuclear deterrent, could follow out Generalplan Ost they would simply change Eastern European population landscape for ever.

The another question is, whether Generalplan Ost would and could be followed out. My guess is no more than cultural revolution or Great Leap Forwards etc. And that's why Nazis could well hang out forever, as like in USSR and China, the comfort loving leaders would follow the fanatic.
 
Eastern Europe would need at least a century to recover, that's assuming higher "Aryanization" rates than what was planned in Generalplan Ost.
 

Gedador

Banned
The collapse of USSR has created "Nazis would fall down quickly even if left by themselves" myth. After all, USSR did not collapse after Stalin until almost another 40 years, the Kardashians (Kims) are still running North Korea, China has evolved from Maoist mayhem etc. Evil falls down inevitably in Star Wars, but not in real life.

If the Nazis for some reason, say due to credible nuclear deterrent, could follow out Generalplan Ost they would simply change Eastern European population landscape for ever.

The another question is, whether Generalplan Ost would and could be followed out. My guess is no more than cultural revolution or Great Leap Forwards etc. And that's why Nazis could well hang out forever, as like in USSR and China, the comfort loving leaders would follow the fanatic.
the reason why I honestly believe that the Nazis would collapse is simple economics when you're murdering the overwhelming majority of you're slave labor you're not going to last too long So more like Pol pot less like the USSR though I believe that the genocide of the Slavic people would happen extremely quickly as Mao killed 45 million people in 3 years just by famine you do that in a place was extremely harsh Winters like in the USSR and don't give them any medical attention or basic human dignity and they're going to start dying real fast.
 
The basic outline would be:
* murder everyone attempted ad hoc in cities
* heer and security forces show increasing rates of suicide
* urban soviet populations:
- enclosed and surrounded and starved
- shifted to labour unto death camps
- shifted to death camps
(Depends on administration)
* rural soviet citizens
- hunted for pleasure and sport (“anti-partisan operations)
- hunted as labour (see suicides and alcoholism, einsatzgruppen)
- deliberately starved, but with massive inefficiency
- enslaved for labour in all kinds of ways with all kinds of pseudo wages (labour unto death camps paid [starvation] wages historically)

After 12 months annihilation **other than for leisure** will be backgrounded as surviving populations are declared “non-literate” as part of deals negotiated between ex soviet citizen leaders acting as kapos and the local economic beneficiary. Except where the SS apparatus are the beneficiary. Or particularly anti-Slav heer or party government.

That’s the basis. Then you get the creative elements. I don’t want to detail them. Take historical. And then have a bigger population for testing ideas.

But the *core* relationship will be economic through work-until-death wage labour and/or agricultural penury wage labour ameliorated through low productivity industrial action.

Consider soviet pow labour camps. Soviet pow starvation 1941. Einsatzgruppen. Poland under German governance. Heer contropled Russia. Reichscomissariats.
 

Gedador

Banned
The basic outline would be:
* murder everyone attempted ad hoc in cities
* heer and security forces show increasing rates of suicide
* urban soviet populations:
- enclosed and surrounded and starved
- shifted to labour unto death camps
- shifted to death camps
(Depends on administration)
* rural soviet citizens
- hunted for pleasure and sport (“anti-partisan operations)
- hunted as labour (see suicides and alcoholism, einsatzgruppen)
- deliberately starved, but with massive inefficiency
- enslaved for labour in all kinds of ways with all kinds of pseudo wages (labour unto death camps paid [starvation] wages historically)

After 12 months annihilation **other than for leisure** will be backgrounded as surviving populations are declared “non-literate” as part of deals negotiated between ex soviet citizen leaders acting as kapos and the local economic beneficiary. Except where the SS apparatus are the beneficiary. Or particularly anti-Slav heer or party government.

That’s the basis. Then you get the creative elements. I don’t want to detail them. Take historical. And then have a bigger population for testing ideas.

But the *core* relationship will be economic through work-until-death wage labour and/or agricultural penury wage labour ameliorated through low productivity industrial action.

Consider soviet pow labour camps. Soviet pow starvation 1941. Einsatzgruppen. Poland under German governance. Heer contropled Russia. Reichscomissariats.
Well shit I knew the Nazis were monsters but I didn't think it was that bad however I don't see how the forced starvation would be inefficient as mao has to kill 45 million people in 3 years so the Nazis would be doing everything possible to make the famines worse so I don't see any urban areas surviving and the rural areas are not going to be having an easier time though many would hopefully be able to escape before it was to late
 
Depends on how far long Generalplan Ost has gone on for.

The plan was essentially...

1. Wipe out the intelligentsia (They had already done this in Poland and the Soviet Union in OTL)

2. Wipe out any traces of Slavic culture. Leningrad was to be obliterated, Moscow was to be turned into an artificial lake and Warsaw was to be transformed into a supply port for the Wehrmacht, with no traces of it's treasured history.

2. Starve the masses until 50 million are dead. 'Recruit' the survivors as un-educated serfs, who only know enough German to respond to orders. Control the population until it eventually dies out.

3. Colonize the now unpopulated regions. Encourage reproduction by 'Aryan' women to eventually outpopulate the natives.

Assuming close to 50 million have died in this timeline, it would take decades for Eastern Europe to recover, if at all. Even in our timeline, there are certain areas of Europe which have not returned to pre-war populations (Berlin is one example), but the cultural impact of the plan would be devastating. Warsaw would be a shell of it's former self and Leningrad, a city constructed by Peter the Great, would no longer exist. Eastern Europe would look unrecognizable if Generalplan Ost was carried out.
 
Rural starvation is inefficient and ineffective because it doesn’t “kill em all.” It won’t even achieve the desired rates of depopulation of General plan Ost. And as soon as someone with half a brain realises the link between urban German discontent and the need for agricultural labour you get a changed reaction towards economic exploitation or death via exploitation in the administrative competition for most soviet citizens killed/employed.

Pretty much after many, but not all (inefficiencies) of the leaderships are wiped out you’ll shift to economic exploitation. Even then scientists and engineers will be preserved to a point, even if used as Primo Levi was.

The guerilla bands will continue into the 1950s, when the first post war recession begins.
 

Gedador

Banned
I'm going to use a calbear quote as it shows how they plan to work all those people to death and for guerrilla warfare resistance requires people did Nazis were going to kill all of the people as was it matter if they die now or 10 years from now
The Nazis wanted a limited number of long term slaves, mainly in General Government area, mainly very young, who could be brought up in conditions similar to those found in the Antebellum South (kept illiterate, raised to be chattel, etc.). Older people (which was anyone over about 35, although it would have varied by local Gauleiter) were going to be wiped out. Hitler was utterly serious when he talked about eliminating the Slavs.

Read Generalplan Ost. The plan was to eliminate 85% of the population of Poland and Lithuania, 2/3 of the population of the Ukraine, 3/4 of Russians (60% killed, 15% transported to Western Siberia) and Belorussians, half of the Czechs, Latvians, & Estonians. The Plan would have taken 25 years, but the goal was to clear all of the East for fresh settlers, leaving 14-15 million slaves. The Plan talks about relocation, but relocating 100 million people is a fantasy (much like the idea of relocating the Jews of Europe to Madagascar), especially when one reads of how "Slavic" cities were to be obliterated so that no evidence of the existence remained, and how Saint Petersburg/Leningrad was to be razed and replaced by a massive lake, all the work to be done, by hand, by the local populations.

There is a general, usually unconscious, effort to mitigate exactly how utterly evil the Reich and its leaders actually were, putting them into a "sick bunch of (*&^%$, but you know, Stalin and Mao were almost as bad" category. IMO this is because the average person's mind recoils at exactly how far the Reich planned to go, was willing to go and meant to do once they won. Because of this the Holocaust tends to get all the attention because, as horrific as it is, it is something that one can almost get their mind around in the "Nazis = Antisemitism" sense. That the Nazis intended to murder over 100 MILLION people, literally because they were in the way, is simply so far over the top that it is unimaginable to most people.

Fortunately the Nazis were stupid enough to have actually written Generalplan Ost out and made sufficient copies (including almost 4 MILLION copies of pamphlet describing how to identify the sub-human elements of the population) that they were found and are available for review.

Studying the Nazis plans is one of those efforts where every time you think you have seen it all, an entirely new stack of terrible appears.

Rural starvation is inefficient and ineffective because it doesn’t “kill em all.” It won’t even achieve the desired rates of depopulation of General plan Ost. And as soon as someone with half a brain realises the link between urban German discontent and the need for agricultural labour you get a changed reaction towards economic exploitation or death via exploitation in the administrative competition for most soviet citizens killed/employed.

Pretty much after many, but not all (inefficiencies) of the leaderships are wiped out you’ll shift to economic exploitation. Even then scientists and engineers will be preserved to a point, even if used as Primo Levi was.

The guerilla bands will continue into the 1950s, when the first post war recession begins.
 
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