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Hardly, if he’s named in the succession then that assumes his family are legitimate abd thus with a claim, thus putting in Salisbury abd Warwick through Joan Beaufort and Buckingham through his mother
A Thorn In The Rose: A War Of The Roses TL
- Thread starter VVD0D95
- Start date
Warwick and Buckingham are higher in succession than Somerset currently, although admittedly in the case of Warwick his wife is the one with the claim. Somerset pushing over York means he pushes over both of them.
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What? Warwick’s claim comes from his grandmother. As for Buckingham is claim comes from
Somerset’s own daughter
Warwick's wife is the daughter of Isabel Despencer who is the daughter of Constance of York and therefore is in succession.
Buckingham's mom is Anne of Gloucester who was Thomas of Woodstock's daughter.
By virtue of their the aforementioned ancestors of Warwick's wife and Buckingham they are higher in succession as compared to Somerset presently.
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Fair tho I think That depends on if you think Somerset was automatically removed from the succession when Henry IV had his entail passed with its questionable legitimacy.
Chapter 64: Sandal Castle
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Chapter 64: Sandal Castle
December, 1456
December, 1456
Edmund stared at the table and wondered for the eleventh time that day why they were here. Mother had said it was because they needed to come and visit the tenants of Wakefield, but Edmund was sure there was another reason. After all, Mother had made it clear to Father enough times that she didn’t like Sandal. Indeed, Edmund had overheard her saying she found the place grim and dreary, and far too similar to one of the castles that her father had owned.
Father wasn’t here though, he was in Ireland, spending Christmas with the Irish. Edmund was supposed to have gone there, but he’d fallen ill when his time for departing had come and Mother had refused to let him travel by ship to Dublin. Father had written to him to tell him that he’d come next year. Edmund hoped so, he wanted to see Ireland, he’d heard so many stories about it. And he definitely didn’t want to go to Westminster, it sounded horrible. Edmund was supposed to have attended a feast there earlier in the year, but had fallen ill before the scheduled time and the feast had been called off.
He exhaled. He was always falling ill before big things. He didn’t know why, if it was something in his constitution or otherwise. Mother didn’t think it was anything, but Edmund was worried. Ned never experienced anything like this, so, why did he? Was he defective in some way? He didn’t know and it was beginning to worry him. He didn’t want to be defective. Not when he was meant to get married soon. He took another breath and then blinked when he felt someone nudge him. He turned to his right and saw Ned looking at him.
“What?” Edmund whispered.
“Mother’s coming.” Ned whispered back.
Edmund immediately straightened, Mother didn’t like it when they weren’t paying attention at the table. They both bowed their heads as Mother came and sat down. “Children.” Mother said.
“Lady Mother.” They both replied.
Edmund looked at his Mother and found himself wondering why there were lines under her eyes, and why she looked more tired than he could remember ever seeing her being before. Had something happened? Or was she just missing Father more? Edmund wanted to ask but knew that doing so was massively impolite, so instead he kept his mouth shut.
Mother spoke then. “How are your lessons progressing?”
“Good, Lady Mother, thank you.” Edward replied answering for them both.
“What have you learned?” Mother asked.
Edward nudged Edmund and he answered. “We were learning about Ireland today.”
Edmund saw Mother’s eyebrows rise. “And what was it about Ireland that you learned?” She asked.
Edmund glanced at Edward, wondering whether it was appropriate for them to tell their mother about the battles between the Irish Kings during the reign of Henry Fitzempress or not. Edward nodded and so Edmund answered. “About the war between the King of Munster and the King of Leinster three hundred years ago.”
When Edmund said the word Leinster, Mother scowled, that made Edmund worry he’d said something wrong, he looked at Edward, and his brother shook his head, it wasn’t something he’d said. Mother spoke then, her tone normal. “And what did you learn about the two Kings?”
“Munster was an honourable man who worked hard for his people whilst Leinster was a rogue, a man only interested in his own petty grievances.” Edmund said.
Mother laughed. “How fitting.”
“Mother?” Edmund asked confused.
Mother waved a hand dismissively. “It is nothing, go on.”
Edmund looked at Edward who nodded and so Edmund looked back at Mother and continued. “The war was long and gruesome, and many people on both sides died, what made the whole thing even worse was that Munster and Leinster were cousins and had been close once when they were children. But greed and ambition had changed them both.”
Edmund saw Mother frown, and saw something like sadness creep into her eyes, that confused him even more. Why was Mother sad? “Go on.” Mother commanded.
“Eventually, the war cost both Munster and Leinster their lives, and when their successors ascended the throne, a peace was signed and the whole war was put aside, but the cost to both Kingdoms was staggering.” Edmund said.
Mother sighed. “Such is the way of war.” A pause and then suddenly she said. “Promise me something, both of you.”
“Mother?” Edmund asked, as did Edward.
“Promise me that you will never take up arms against one another, no matter what anyone else says.” Mother said.
Edmund shared a look with Edward wondering what had gotten into their mother, they both said. “We will never take up arms against one another.”
Mother nodded and smiled. “Good. That is good. Now, if you will excuse me, I must retire for the night. Do not stay up too late.” With that Mother rose and walked off, leaving Edmund and Edward at the table, completely confused.
Edmund turned to look at his brother and asked. “What was that about?”
Edward shrugged. “I don’t know, maybe something to do with what’s going on with Uncle Salisbury.”
Edmund frowned. “What’s happening with him?” Edmund had only met Uncle Salisbury a few times and each time he’d come away with the impression that his uncle was a dangerous man.
“I overheard Mother telling Sir Hastings that Uncle Salisbury was in danger and that they might need to work with him to protect Father.” Edward answered.
“From what?” Edmund asked, panic settling into his stomach.
“From the King.” Edward answered.
“Why?” Edmund asked. “Father has been nothing but loyal to the King.”
Edward shrugged. “I don’t know, but something is going terribly wrong at court.”
“What do you mean?” Edmund asked, worry beginning to coil in his stomach.
“I don’t know, I just keep hearing that things are going wrong for father there. Uncle Salisbury had to flee court because the King wanted to arrest him, and cousin Warwick is likely going to be recalled from Wales.” Edward said.
Edmund sighed. “Adults make no sense.”
Edward laughed. “Very true.” Edmund grinned and added.
“At least you make sense, most of the time.”
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Oh?
Ahh glad to hear it, it'll stand him in good stead when the time comes, one hopes
Chapter 65: Welsh Dragons
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Chapter 65: Welsh Dragons
January, 1457
January, 1457
Henry looked at the men gathered in the room alongside him and bit back a sigh. They were the old men of Southern Wales. Men who really should be put out to pasture, but men he needed if he wanted to make the right impression and get them prepared and willing to carry out his father’s plan. His father. The man was starting to get on Henry’s nerves, with his constant demands of action and his constant changing of plans. It was like his brain was rotting or some such. Henry was tempted to write to his mother and inform her of his concerns about his father, but decided against doing so. Mother and Father were in a good place right now; he didn’t want to ruin that.
“Gentlemen.” Henry said, fixing his gaze on a spot just to the left of Sir Ranulph Mortimer. “I know that the nights are getting longer, but that is no cause for abandoning caution. The incident on the Severn Road was unacceptable.” Fifty men in plain clothes had attacked ten men who were under Warwick’s protection earlier in the week, and Warwick had learned of it and sent a letter to Henry complaining about it. Given the plan Henry had, he did not want to antagonise Warwick, yet.
“My apologies, my lord.” Mortimer said. Mortimer was distantly related to York, through some abstract relation from the first Earl of March, but otherwise had no affection for the man. He’d made that quite clear when Henry had asked him. “But, those travellers were in the wrong place.”
“How so?” Henry asked, eyebrows raised.
“The Severn Road is within my land, your lordship knows that, and they did not have the right permits.” Mortimer answered.
“You checked?” Henry asked.
“Of course I did!” Mortimer replied, sounding offended. “Their paper work was wrong, it was as if Warwick had sent them here because he knew that.”
“He likely did.” Owen Tudor said. Tudor’s presence here was surprising to Henry, Tudor had lost both his sons in service to the King and the last time Henry had seen him before now, had been at his sons’ funerals where he had gotten into an argument with Henry’s father. That he was here now, serving as one of Henry’s Welshmen was something.
“What do you mean?” Henry asked him.
“Your lordship knows that Warwick has been trying to create trouble for you for some time.” Tudor answered, Henry nodded and Tudor continued. “He no doubt intended to send those men with the wrong paper work to ensure they would be attacked by Sir Ranulph here, thus ensuring that he could cause a fuss and go to London with it.”
“But, he gave them the wrong paper work.” Mortimer said. “And if he did it deliberately then he will have no ground to stand on.”
Henry saw Tudor raise an eyebrow at him and immediately he understood what this was about. “He’s going to use the fact that I changed the paper work needed for the roads in Southern Wales as the reason for why this happened.” Henry wanted to hit himself, how could he not have suspected something like this would happen? He had been full of happiness and pleasure at how clever his amendments to the road regulations had been that he’d forgotten how cunning Warwick was.
“So, Warwick is using this as an excuse to get at you, my lord?” Mortimer asked slowly, as if trying to comprehend that Alexander the Great had refused to return home when given the chance and wanted to fight an army filled with giant elephants.
“Yes.” Henry said, he exhaled.
“We must retaliate.” Mortimer said at once.
“How?” Henry asked. “Warwick is in the right here.” Much as he hated to admit it, that was the truth.
“We can find a pretext, or something, surely?” Mortimer asked. “There must be something that Warwick has done that is wrong.”
Madog ap Owain, a member of a gentry family from Glamorgan spoke then. “He is encroaching on natural land, that is something that no English King has ever dared do.”
Natural land was made up of forests, streams and woodland that had formed part of Wales since time immemorial. It was nominally considered Crown Land, but was usually kept open and vacant for anyone to peruse but not use. If Warwick was encroaching on it, then he could get into serious trouble. “How much?” Henry asked.
“Two forests so far. All of it used to keep his men occupied.” Madog replied, the way in which he answered made it quite clear what he thought of that.
“Very well, we shall use this against him.” Henry said.
“How?” Mortimer asked.
“We’re going to remind him of what he’s doing in return for him keeping quiet about what happened.” Henry said.
Mortimer grumbled but acquiesced, Tudor spoke then. “And what of your meeting?”
“What of it?” Henry asked, he was meant to be meeting Warwick in a few weeks’ time to discuss how they were both progressing, but he had been warned Warwick meant to have him killed during said meeting.
“Are you still going to go, knowing what you know?” Tudor asked.
“Yes.” Henry answered. “To not go would be to raise suspicions.” And he was no coward, he wasn’t going to let Warwick scare him away from this.
“Then your guard is going to need to be increased significantly, and precautions are going to need to be created.” Tudor said.
“Then get to it.” Henry commanded.
Tudor’s eyes narrowed but he nodded all the same. “Yes, my lord.”
Henry pushed his chair back and stood up. “Now, unless there is anything more?” When nobody replied, he turned and walked out of the room, he kept going, turning once or twice before entering his own room, where Morgan was. He walked over to the man and kissed him and then murmured. “Did you sleep well?”
“I did.” Morgan murmured against his lips. “How did the meeting go?”
“Good enough.” Henry replied, kissing Morgan again and deciding for the time being to not think about anything.
Chapter 66: Raining Fire
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Chapter 66: Raining Fire
January, 1457
January, 1457
Richard could hear the rain outside; it was thundering down and no doubt there would be all kinds of mess left behind. Dublin did not handle rain well; of that he was fully aware. He would need to order new drainage works to be done once winter ended, to try and do it before winter ended was madness, as all it would ever bring was more pain and illness. Plus, there were a great many things he had to otherwise.
He fiddled with the ribbon that his daughter Margaret had sent him for Christmas. This was the first Christmas that he’d not been with his family, having deigned it far too risky for them to make the journey to Dublin this time around. He had missed them terribly, but he knew it was the right thing to do. After all, his friends at court had told him of Salisbury’s flight and of Somerset’s supposed ascendancy. It would not do for his family to leave England just now.
Especially, when there were those in Ireland who seemed to be plotting against him. Richard looked at the two men who were gathered in his study. Thomas FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare and Nicholas Barnewall, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland. Both men had been summoned to discuss the news he’d received from a source in Southern Ireland. He cleared his throat and said. “The Earl of Ormond intends to introduce a new bill into Parliament when it meets next month.” Ormond, or rather John Butler was a much cleverer customer than his brother had been. He certainly knew what he was doing, or at least appeared to. “This bill will look to propose my removal from being the King’s heir after the Prince of Wales, and to replace me with the Duke of Somerset.”
There was a brief pause and then Kildare said. “It can’t pass.”
“Why?” Richard asked looking at the man.
“Ormond won’t have enough support in the Lords, and the Commons is yours, my lord.” Kildare said.
Richard snorted. “Clearly he believes he will find support, otherwise he would not have decided to make this proposition.” At least that was York’s understanding of the matter. He was always of the view that unless one had clear support for a measure, one should never try something, otherwise you risked being made to look a fool. And Richard despised being made to look like a fool.
“He could be bluffing.” Kildare replied.
“Bluffing?” Richard asked. “You think he would dare bluff about something like this?”
“Yes.” Kildare said.
“Why?” Richard demanded.
“Because he thinks he can get something out of you, my lord.” Kildare said.
“And what does he think he can get out of me?” Richard asked, though he had a rough idea of what it could be.
“The King of Leinster.” Kildare said. “Ormond has not pressed any claim to Leinster yet, no doubt because he believes that doing so would be an embarrassment to the Crown, but by introducing this bill, he is no doubt hoping you will give him his brother’s killer so that he can get justice.”
“Does he know Leinster was responsible for his brother’s death?” Richard asked, they’d not made it public and indeed, Leinster’s men had not worn Leinster’s colours whilst doing the deed.
“No, but I think he suspects it was Leinster.” Kildare answered.
Richard took a breath and then looked at Barnewall. “Can he be arrested?”
Barnewall shook his head. “Not unless His Grace were to issue a declaration stating that his proposition was treason.”
Richard sighed. “And it will take far too long for us to inform the King about this and then to get the King’s response.” That was the problem with being in Ireland, communication with the mainland took far too bloody long.
“Exactly, my lord.” Barnewall replied. “I think the best thing to do would be to offer the man who actually struck the killing blow.”
“Instead of Leinster?” Richard asked.
“Yes, under the laws which established the Lordship of Ireland, the local Kings are protected unless they directly go against the King, but their servants are not.” Barnewall said.
Richard thought on this, it would give them an out, but it may not pacify Ormond. “Will Ormond be satisfied by this?” He asked looking at Kildare.
Kildare shrugged. “I think so, any sane individual would be.”
Richard sighed. “Very well, send word to Leinster to deliver one of his household for judgement.” He wanted to get this business over and done with before it escalated into something even more problematic.
“Yes, my lord.” Kildare said.
Richard nodded, then said. “Now about Connaught’s law.” Connaught’s Law, a law proposed by the King of Connaught to reduce the amount of raiding that occurred on roads that traversed the borders between the Lordship and individual Kingdoms, it was a sensible law, but Richard worried that the Lords of the Irish Parliament would not agree to it due to their own prejudice. “How many people have said they will agree to it?”
It was Barnewall who answered then. “It will be a difficult one, my lord. Whilst the law itself is sensible, the prejudices of many against the native Kings is deep. Indeed, I know Edmund O’Burke plans on giving a long speech against the bill in a few weeks’ time.”
“And do they have any solutions then?” Richard asked. “Or will they just keep complaining about the trouble on the border roads?”
Barnewall snorted. “Likely the latter, my lord.”
“Then we had best force them into voting for it.” Richard said. “Unless they have another solution.”
“That may require loosening some of the purse strings, my lord.” Kildare said.
Richard frowned, he despised using bribes to get things done, but if that was required, then so be it. “Very well, I shall inform the treasury.”
“My lord.” Kildare replied bowing.
“Now, is there anything more?” Richard asked, when nobody else spoke, he got up and said. “Let us get going then, we all have a busy time ahead of us.” Richard turned and walked out of the room, wondering how long he would be in Ireland for after this.
this makes it feel like ormonde is not going to be satisfied by simply being given the man who struck the killing blow
Chapter 67: Meeting
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Chapter 67: Meeting
February, 1457
February, 1457
“Lord Dorset.” Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick said as his cousin entered the room and took a seat.
“Lord Warwick.” Dorset acknowledged.
Richard took a breath and then said. “I trust you had a good Christmas and a relaxing interlude before the new year began?” He was buying time, waiting to see what the man would say and whether he would come out and say he knew about Richard’s plan, as Richard was planning on doing with him.
“I did, it was refreshing.” Dorset said. “And you?”
“About the same.” Richard replied.
Dorset nodded then asked. “Why did you ask me here?”
Straight to the point then. Richard thought to himself, he took a moment to reply, getting his thoughts in order, before continuing. “I thought it would be good for us to discuss how we’re both doing in our respective spheres in Wales, and whether there is anything we need assistance from the other for.”
Dorset’s eyes widened slightly as if he were completely surprised by this request, Richard hid a grin behind his cup of wine, this was going to be fun, he could sense it. “Very well, do you wish to go first?” Dorset asked.
“I will.” Richard agreed.
“Chirk is completely under my control as is Edeirnion.” Richard said. “Owestry has had its fair share of challenges but by and large the area is now coming under my control.” Indeed, if he’d gotten it right, the people of Owestry would be his most adherent followers, which if things were going to go in the direction his father thought they were, that could be very useful.
“The Owestrians did not mind the declarations that you issued?” Dorset asked, eyebrow raised.
“Those that did were allowed to voice their concerns and then they were handled.” Richard said simply.
“Handled?” Dorset asked.
“Their concerns were addressed in a manner that befitted them.” Richard said, not mentioning some of the blood that had been spilt.
“I see.” Dorset replied.
“And what of you?” Richard asked.
“Glamorgan and Avan Wallia have proven very easy to bring into line. Being based in Glamorgan has had its benefits.” Dorset answered.
“But?” Richard asked, there was a but coming he was sure of it.
“But Neath has proved difficult.” Dorset replied.
“How so?” Richard asked.
Dorset sighed. “Some of the gentry are very proud of their lineage and heritage and are refusing to bend on certain points which they consider matters of principle.” The way Dorset said those words made it sound like there was something more sinister lurking beneath the surface, but Richard wasn’t going to press. He didn’t care per say.
“And have you found a way to bring them around?” Richard asked, he assumed so, after all, the man hadn’t claimed failure.
“Yes.” Dorset said.
Richard wanted to ask how, but suspected he might not like the answer, so instead he asked. “And you are sure it will last long term?”
“It will not require military intervention, if that is what you are afraid of.” Dorset said, rubbing at his eyes.
Richard nodded. “Good, that is a relief.” He didn’t really fancy getting involved in a fight with a bunch of sheep lovers.
“So, now we have informed one another about what we have been doing, is there any other reason we must remain within this cavernous castle?” Dorset asked.
Richard laughed, Caernarvon, was the seat of the Prince of Wales, and given said Prince was but a child, it was being run by a castellan who had been chosen by Richard’s father with permission from the King. He’d chosen the place as the location for their meeting to prevent Dorset from trying anything funny, but also to show that he himself would not try anything funny. After all, he’d be an idiot to try and kill Dorset on Crown property. “Well, there was one thing I wanted to talk to you about.”
Dorset’s eyebrow shot up further, if such a thing were even possible. “And what was it that you wished to talk about?”
Richard knew he had to be careful now, one wrong step and everything could go up in the wind. He took a breath and then said. “An alliance between the two of us.”
“An alliance?” Dorset asked, frowning.
“Yes.” Richard said. “I see no reason why we must let the petty grievances of our fathers dictate what our own relationship is like.”
He could see Dorset considering what he’d just said, the man’s face was moving from thoughtful to concerned, back to thoughtful. “And what would such a thing look like?”
“We would work together out in England as we have done here. We would inform each other about our plans and purposes, we would work to undermine anyone who would threaten the peace of the realm.” Richard said, saying the words he’d practised beforehand.
“And you would be comfortable doing this?” Dorset asked. “It would not bring you into conflict with your father?”
“I am comfortable with it.” Richard said. “My father is a loose man; he is not someone who can be completely trusted.” That last part was a lie, but from the way Dorset smiled, he knew he’d got the man on his side.
“I agree. My father has also gotten very loose, I do not know what it is, but I think the time has come for them to be removed.” Dorset said.
I’ve got you right where I want you now. Richard thought to himself, aloud though he merely said. “I agree.”
Richard smiled. “Then it is sorted?”
Dorset nodded and extended his hand. “It is sorted.”
Richard took Dorset’s hand and shook it with his own, then he pulled back and said. “You will stay for a while longer, I hope, so we can commemorate our new alliance?”
Dorset shifted in his chair and then said. “I don’t see why not. I will need to rest a while though, I have been travelling for some time.”
“Of course.” Richard said. “I’ll have one of my men show you to a room.” Dorset nodded, rose, Richard rose too, and called for one of the guards. A tall, burly man appeared.
“Show Lord Dorset to the Lion’s Room.” Richard said, the man nodded and asked Dorset to follow him. Richard watched the two of them walk out of the room and disappear, then he took a deep breath and walked back to his desk, where he picked up a letter that had come from his father and whispered. “The game begins again.” This time, he intended to win.
Intriguing. I wonder what warwick (and presumably salisbury as well) have planned...