Well, quite! Thank you! And I'm particularly proud of casting Ruth Gemell and Michelle Dockery as mother and daughter. I think they work really well together.At the very least, this TV show hasn't made Katherine a stereotypical olive-skinned, dark-haired Spaniard like a lot of them seem to do...
A Queen Twice Over: Mary Tudor the Elder Marries Francis I of France
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
Have also just realised I forgot to cast the young Louise of France. Any suggestions? I know she's dark-haired and grows up into Crystal Reed, if that's any help?
I mean, at least getting the red hair right is more than many can be bothered to do lol
Unless you're 100% set on Tilda Swinton (which is completely fair!) then would you consider another actress for Catherine? I just don't see her as a Katherine personally I must admit. I kinda thought about Rebecca Mader (OUAT Zelena), my only concern is that she might look a bit too young?
But it is ofc your timeline. Conversely, while I love Natalie Dormer's Anne Boleyn in The Tudors, I do worry that she might be a bit too old for this incarnation of her. Isn't Anne Boleyn fairly young in this television show?
Last edited:
Are Princess Mary and Nora Boleyn being played by the same actress, or am I missing something?
Great actress and has an amazing presence but Tilda just doesn’t feel right at all. Doesn’t look like the descriptions of Katherine at all. Maria is definitely a better fit although I’m not sure who else is pick besides her.
I think it’s been mentioned that they look similar enough to switch places and not be recognized, so I wouldn’t be surprised.
Yes, you're right, I do need a younger Anne Boleyn, at least for Season 1. Ballie Madison can take the role to start with, although I think Natalie would probably take over by the mid 1520s...Unless you're 100% set on Tilda Swinton (which is completely fair!) then would you consider another actress for Catherine? I just don't see her as a Katherine personally I must admit. I kinda thought about Rebecca Mader (OUAT Zelena), my only concern is that she might look a bit too young?
Last edited:
Yes, they are. That was a deliberate choice that I am absolutely set on.
Indeed...
Right, I have recast Katherine. Rose Leslie is now playing her. She's the right age and is a natural redhead.
Cast, Queen of Lillies, 2015 (IIa)
It would only let me upload ten pictures to my previous post, so here are the discussed additions to the Queen of Lillies Cast.
Anne is now both Ballie Madison and Natalie:
Katherine of Aragon meanwhile is Rose Leslie rather than Tilda Swinton:
Anne is now both Ballie Madison and Natalie:
Katherine of Aragon meanwhile is Rose Leslie rather than Tilda Swinton:
Hapsburg Family Tree (1526)
Now, I had hoped to have a full chapter out today, but I haven't done much writing recently, so I am pushing off the start of part III a bit so I can work on a backlog of chapters in the meanwhile.
So: Have a Habsburg tree instead!
Juana of Castile (b.1479) m.1496 Phillip IV of Burgundy
1) Eleanor of Austria (b.1498) m. 1518 Manuel I of Portugal (1469-1521) (a) m. 1523 Antoine, Duke of Lorraine (b)
- Charles of Portugal (1520-1521)
- Maria of Portugal (1521-1523)
2) Charles V (b.1500) m.1522 Marguerite de Angouleme (b.1492)
- Philip, Prince of Asturias (b.1524) bet. Anna of Lorraine (b.1522)
- unborn child, due August 1527
3) Isabella, Queen of Denmark (b.1501) m. 1515 Christian II of Denmark (b.1481)
- John, Crown Prince of Denmark (b.1518)
- Dorothea (b,1520)
- Christina (b.1521)
4) Ferdinand (b,1503) m.1521 Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1503)
- Elizabeth (b.1526)
- unborn child, due July 1527
5) Mary, Queen of Hungary (b.1505) m.1521 Louis II of Hungary and Bohemia (1506-1526)
- Karoly III of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1522)
- Alojzia, Crown Princess of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1526)
6) Catherine, Duchess of Ferrara (b.1507) m.1523 Ercole II of Ferrara (b.1508)
- Giovanna (b.1525)
So: Have a Habsburg tree instead!
Juana of Castile (b.1479) m.1496 Phillip IV of Burgundy
1) Eleanor of Austria (b.1498) m. 1518 Manuel I of Portugal (1469-1521) (a) m. 1523 Antoine, Duke of Lorraine (b)
- Charles of Portugal (1520-1521)
- Maria of Portugal (1521-1523)
2) Charles V (b.1500) m.1522 Marguerite de Angouleme (b.1492)
- Philip, Prince of Asturias (b.1524) bet. Anna of Lorraine (b.1522)
- unborn child, due August 1527
3) Isabella, Queen of Denmark (b.1501) m. 1515 Christian II of Denmark (b.1481)
- John, Crown Prince of Denmark (b.1518)
- Dorothea (b,1520)
- Christina (b.1521)
4) Ferdinand (b,1503) m.1521 Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1503)
- Elizabeth (b.1526)
- unborn child, due July 1527
5) Mary, Queen of Hungary (b.1505) m.1521 Louis II of Hungary and Bohemia (1506-1526)
- Karoly III of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1522)
- Alojzia, Crown Princess of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1526)
6) Catherine, Duchess of Ferrara (b.1507) m.1523 Ercole II of Ferrara (b.1508)
- Giovanna (b.1525)
At least the family tree is still a tree right now and not a family totem poll
Don't worry, it'll soon evolve into a pretzel within probably the next one or two generations.
Every generation the Habsburg tree evolves like a Pokemon and becomes more tumbleweed and jumbled up.
Because of the incest. Lots of jokes of incestual families about how they don’t have family trees but family totem polls or pretzels or circles etc.
Oh I don’t doubt it. Good ol incest am I right!
Part III: Section LXIV - August 1527
Tickhill, August 1527
“Charles,” Henry beckons to his oldest friend, separating him from a knot of courtiers, “Walk with me.”
“Of course,” Charles dips his head and falls into step beside Henry, so used to Henry’s commanding joviality that he doesn’t even flinch as Henry throws a heavy arm around his shoulders.
The two of them stroll down the long gallery to the window embrasure at the end. Henry gazes down into the gardens absently, watching the courtiers scurrying below without actually seeing them.
“Mary of Hungary has agreed to betroth little Lujza to George,” he says abruptly. “I’d hoped for an Imperial match for him, but the heiress to Bohemia and Hungary isn’t to be sniffed at, particularly since there’s no guarantees Empress Marguerite will birth a girl this time around, and Archduke Ferdinand seems determined to betroth his little Elizabeth to the Polish heir. The children are both still young, after all. A lot can change in the next ten years.”
“Indeed,” Charles reassures, “And the Queen will be pleased to have the Prince’s future secured, even if she, like yourself, would have preferred an Iberian match, had one been available.”
“Yes,” Henry exhales slowly, “Hopefully it will make her smile again. Precious little has since she lost the Duke of York.”
Charles murmurs in sympathy, suppressing a wince. Queen Mary has never been an easy woman, but the confidence boost having a Prince in the cradle had given her had softened her, made her that little bit more amenable to compromise, at least towards the great magnates. The loss of the unborn Duke of York in May, however, has brought an abrupt end to the golden peace that has permeated the Court for the past two years.
“But enough about George,” Henry breaks into Charles’s musings, startling the older man. Normally Henry can’t gush about his darling golden boy enough, “Getting his future sorted has made me realise that it’s past time I start making plans for the others too. Mary is settled with Henri, of course, and Lillibet will go to Savoy when she’s older, but that still leaves the Fitzroys to make plans for.”
Henry gives Charles a meaningful look. Charles suspects he knows what’s coming, but he doesn’t want to presume. He hasn’t managed to stay Henry’s friend this long by being presumptuous.
“Sire?” he queries lightly, and Henry snorts.
“Don’t play the fool, Charles. It doesn’t suit you. You have a son, I have a daughter. It would please me mightily if we were to join our families. Your Harry to my Peggy. What do you say?”
Charles’s heart leaps. His fortunes at Court might be assured, given Henry’s love for him, but the same can’t necessarily be said for his children. Oh, Harry is the future Duke of Suffolk, so there’s that, but Eliza… well, being sister to the King’s natural children can only do her prospects the world of good. Of course, it would be even better if Eliza were to marry Lord Edmund, but he doesn’t want to seem overreaching by pushing for a double match. As such, he simply smiles at Henry.
“I think it’s a grand idea, Sire. I’ll have to consult with the Duchess, of course, but I can’t see why she shouldn’t be delighted.”
“Splendid!” Henry claps him on the back, “With Hal promised to little Kathy Willoughby, that only leaves me Edmund to settle. Do write to the Duchess as soon as you can, won’t you?”
“Yes, Sire,” Charles nods and then bows and turns to leave as Henry flicks his fingers in dismissal. A couple of paintings away, however, he stops as a thought occurs to him.
“My Lord?”
“Yes, Charles?”
“I wondered if you’d given any more thought to Prince George’s household when he goes to Ludlow? Whether or not Harry will be going with him?”
“Oh, Harry will definitely be joining the nursery next summer,” Henry assures his friend, “I’ll make sure of that. But I’m not sure we’ll be moving George from Greenwich just yet. The Queen has been complaining that Ludlow is too far away while he’s still so young. And I have to admit, I do like having my son close.”
“I see. And His Highness’s governor?”
Henry sighs, his mouth pinching for a moment, “I’d like to see Nick Carew raise him. He’d make a fine soldier of him. But Mary wants her brother Francis to raise him, as my great-uncle Anthony raised my Uncle Edward, and who am I to say no to a doting mother? So the jury’s still out of that one.”
Charles nods, and backs away again. He waits until he’s out of Henry’s sight to roll his eyes.
Queen Mary is going to turn her son into a Talbot puppet, not a Tudor Prince.
Coudenberg, Brussels, August 1527
Charles pauses outside Marguerite’s lying-in chambers, steeling himself.
He has to go in and visit Marguerite and their new daughter, he knows. It will be the talk of Brussels if he doesn’t.
But he’s struggling to muster the enthusiasm. He only brought Marguerite back from Spain when his nobles started to make worried noises about a single son’s life being a slender thread to hang the fate of the Spanish Empire upon, and when the Flemish made it very clear that they would rather be ruled by a Burgundian than a Spaniard. He never planned to co-habit with her for long. Just long enough to have a Duke of Burgundy and soothe his nobles a bit. Then he was going to pack her off to Segovia and get on with courting Anne de Cröy. Phillippe wouldn’t have minded. Not if he got an Order of the Golden Fleece out of it.
But now Marguerite has had a daughter, he’ll have to put aside any thoughts of romancing his old tutor’s niece and try again for a son with Marguerite. Damn and blast her! Why couldn’t she just have given him another son like she was supposed to?!
Sucking in a sharp, irritated breath, Charles pushes open the heavy oaken doors.
Marguerite doesn’t look up when he enters. She is too busy crooning – in French, damn her eyes – to the infant girl in her arms. She is running tender fingers through the dark downy hair covering the baby’s scalp.
Charles pauses mid-stride, taking in the scene, and then crosses to the bed.
“Is she healthy?” he manages, involuntarily half-holding out his arms. Marguerite starts at his voice, but nods.
“The wet nurse says she has quite a strong suck.”
“Good. That’s good. And the birth wasn’t too hard on you?”
“No harder than Phillip’s, My Lord.”
The words are cool and stilted, but at least they haven’t descended into a shouting match. Not yet. That’s already an improvement on the last time Charles came to visit.
“Would you like to hold your daughter, Sire?” Marguerite proffers the baby and Charles takes her, feeling the warm strength beneath the layers of swaddling.
He lets himself daydream for a moment. This little girl will make a fine Queen one day. Of Hungary, perhaps. Or Denmark, if he can only get Christian back on his throne. As such, they should name her for a Queen, a rightful Queen.
“Catalina,” he says firmly, “We shall name her Catalina, for my aunt.”
Marguerite nods, uncharacteristically silent. Charles cuts her a sidelong glance, “I hope the birth hasn’t sapped you of your strength unduly, Madam. After all, Phillip still needs a brother. Especially now that he’s old enough to go to Zaragoza.”
“Zaragoza?” The colour, what little there is of it, drains from Marguerite’s cheeks. She knows only too well what this means.
Charles nods, “He’s old enough. I’ve asked Pedro de Toledo to take charge of him. He’ll make a proper Spanish soldier of him, the way the Cortes want.”
“Charles…” Marguerite starts, reaching for him impulsively, “Please. No. Think what you do. Phillip has only just turned three. He’s too young!”
“A Prince is never too young to learn to rule,” Charles glares down at Marguerite. Suddenly, however, a touch of sympathy warms him. He’s not quite sure why. Perhaps it’s because he’s never seen Marguerite look so vulnerable.
“You may raise Catalina,” he says gently, “You may raise Catalina and any younger siblings we may manage to give her. I’ll order my grandmother’s palace at Mechelen to be made ready for you. And you may send for Bucher and the other moderate Reformers if you wish. This craze for heresy isn’t blowing over in the way I hoped it might. We’re going to have to face it, and the heretics are claiming they’ll talk to you when they won’t talk to me. I only hope you’ll do your duty as Empress and make them see sense.”
Marguerite’s eyes light up. Charles has never offered her such as big olive branch before.
“Thank you,” she breathes, kissing his hand where it rests on Catalina’s back, “Thank you!”
Charles watches her with something close to tenderness in his eyes, but it only lasts a moment. Catalina whimpers and his walls snap back up again.
“But Phillip goes to Zaragoza on Monday,” he snarls, setting his jaw against further protest, “I can’t have the Prince of Asturias tainted with the brush of heresy. Pedro will take charge of him from now on.”
Then, without giving Marguerite a chance to respond, he places Catalina in the cradle and strides from the room, muttering furiously under his breath.
He’s going to have to order new birth announcements, he thinks blackly. The prewritten ones all say Duke of Burgundy rather than Archduchess.
Damn and Blast it all! Why couldn’t Catalina have been a boy? Then all his problems would have been solved.
Last edited:
