A Light in the East: A Korean TL

So what's the PoD? Will the Koreans expand their culture significantly into North Asia? Will another Chinese dynasty besides the Sui unite the realms instead?

I think PoD will be Gogureoy unite Korean Peninsula and expand west..

EDITED: Exactly I thought you went from Gweangtho The Great (sorry if I mis-spelled),

But doesn't your Empire too overstretched? Form your map I see you are well into in Shandong Peninsula... Gogureyo can't manage to assimilate Chinese because they are too numerous, and I don't think Gogureyo can dominate culturally Chinese... If you go deep into Chinese you will well another Chinese Dynasty in history like Yuan or Qing....

If the that south Kyushu people will hold well, I saw them dominate all Japan... They will be like Normans that conquered British Island... Maybe it will butterflied to 100 year War in Korean Peninsula, like England did in France...
 
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I think PoD will be Gogureoy unite Korean Peninsula and expand west..

Actually, the PoD occurs in 395 AD, when Gwanggaeto decides to attack Baekje instead of the Beili (Xianbei), and Asin attempts to hold out instead of surrendering.

EDITED: Exactly I thought you went from Gweangtho The Great (sorry if I mis-spelled),

But doesn't your Empire too overstretched? Form your map I see you are well into in Shandong Peninsula... Gogureyo can't manage to assimilate Chinese because they are too numerous, and I don't think Gogureyo can dominate culturally Chinese... If you go deep into Chinese you will well another Chinese Dynasty in history like Yuan or Qing....

If the that south Kyushu people will hold well, I saw them dominate all Japan... They will be like Normans that conquered British Island... Maybe it will butterflied to 100 year War in Korean Peninsula, like England did in France...

The individuals within what had originally been part of the Yan would have been tired of the chaos after decades of constant warfare with Goguryeo and the Wei, so significant revolts would be extremely unlikely. In addition, Goguryeo isn't going to assimilate China, and its possessions west and east of the Liao River are going to be governed separately for the most part. The state was multiethnic to begin with, although it was culturally homogenous, so some regions near the Liao might begin to assimilate over time, but this situation will not apply to most of China. The issue isn't whether Goguryeo can expand further into China, but how long it will be able to hold it, and the Han Chinese will eventually throw off foreign rule and attempt to invade Goguryeo's core territory several centuries after the PoD.

Significant areas of Japan will be gradually conquered within a century or two, but the chaos within China will also cause the islanders to push the invaders out later on.
 
Significant areas of Japan will be gradually conquered within a century or two, but the chaos within China will also cause the islanders to push the invaders out later on.

What was Xianbei doing during Gogureyo conquest of China, I'm sure they won't sit and just look how Gogureyo becoming hegemon. I'm almost sure that one of Chinese states will be bribe Xianbei and they sure attacked Gogureyo. Or maybe you will make Xianbei and Gogureyo split North China. That will make real trouble on China.

1 or 2 century on Japanese Islands, then they will be culturally assimilated to Korea. So maybe we can see in 20th century federatin between Korean peninsula and Japan... :rolleyes:
 
The issue isn't whether Goguryeo can expand further into China, but how long it will be able to hold it, and the Han Chinese will eventually throw off foreign rule and attempt to invade Goguryeo's core territory several centuries after the PoD.

You need to neutralize Nomadic tribes, you need to make CHina divided and weak and pray that Yellow river doesn't flood (which is impossible). When major flood occurs on Yellow river, Shandong will have famine which will lead to rebellion.

And you also need to hold very strong Navy and Strongest army on North East Asia, which will put tremendous pressure on your economy.
 
What was Xianbei doing during Gogureyo conquest of China, I'm sure they won't sit and just look how Gogureyo becoming hegemon. I'm almost sure that one of Chinese states will be bribe Xianbei and they sure attacked Gogureyo. Or maybe you will make Xianbei and Gogureyo split North China. That will make real trouble on China.

1 or 2 century on Japanese Islands, then they will be culturally assimilated to Korea. So maybe we can see in 20th century federatin between Korean peninsula and Japan... :rolleyes:

I know it's relatively long, but please read the timeline over again, as I attempted to thoroughly explain the situation and am planning on continuing to do so in future updates. The (Former/Later) Yan, (Northern/Tuoba) Wei, Beili, and Rouran, along with others that I may have left out, were all founded by prominent Xianbei clans. The Yan eventually collapsed after a simultaneous two-front invasion by Goguryeo and the Wei, the Wei is struggling to achieve dominance in North China after its initial setback in Canhe Slope, which was the reverse IOTL, the Beili is a Goguryeo tributary, and the Rouran is still attempting to consolidate its hold in Central Asia while clashing with states in North China. In other words, you have to thoroughly understand the situation before attempting to grasp the entire picture, which will take some time.

You need to neutralize Nomadic tribes, you need to make CHina divided and weak and pray that Yellow river doesn't flood (which is impossible). When major flood occurs on Yellow river, Shandong will have famine which will lead to rebellion.

And you also need to hold very strong Navy and Strongest army on North East Asia, which will put tremendous pressure on your economy.

China was divided until 589 IOTL, so a similar situation will occur ITTL as well. Also, the Sui managed to keep itself together until 618 IOTL, although there was a big shift in the river in 602, and there were constant revolts as the invasion of Goguryeo began to take its toll. I specified in a previous update how Goguryeo managed to mobilize around 100,000 troops, and once it begins to expand further into China, maintaining 500,000 will not be an issue, especially after considering the potential population and trading volume involved. IOTL, Goguryeo managed to mobilize around 600,000 when the Tang invaded, so unless all of China rises up against Goguryeo, which will not occur until after 600, it will not be particularly difficult to crush minor riots, which will probably occur over time. In addition, Goguryeo will eventually control territory surrounding the Yellow Sea, along with the East China Sea, all of which were home to various maritime states that had extensive naval traditions and traded on a frequent basis.
 
I know it's relatively long, but please read the timeline over again, as I attempted to thoroughly explain the situation and am planning on continuing to do so in future updates. The (Former/Later) Yan, (Northern/Tuoba) Wei, Beili, and Rouran, along with others that I may have left out, were all founded by prominent Xianbei clans. The Yan eventually collapsed after a simultaneous two-front invasion by Goguryeo and the Wei, the Wei is struggling to achieve dominance in North China after its initial setback in Canhe Slope, which was the reverse IOTL, the Beili is a Goguryeo tributary, and the Rouran is still attempting to consolidate its hold in Central Asia while clashing with states in North China. In other words, you have to thoroughly understand the situation before attempting to grasp the entire picture, which will take some time.

Rouran base wasn't central Asian They base was what is today's Mongolia and Hinggan Mountain. So Rouran surely will attack you. And now you are well into in North china Wei already making alliance with Rouran. Around 400 they at the helm of their power so, noone can stop them.
Basically most fierce military in North East was Nomads on Mongolian Plain. What is the Chinese employed tactic is bribe them with huge bounty and use them against the other enemy of China.

Regarding to Wei, consolidating their control over China would be more easy than Gogureyo establishing control over Chinese proper. Since Wei-Xianbei will just adopt Chinese culture while Gogureyo will force they own culture.

So if you want to make Gogureyo stable you need to always make sure that Gogureyo and Mongolian Nomadic Empires was ally. So you direct them Against Power in North China and Western Expansion, while Gogurey will focus on consolidating his base on Manchuria, Hebei and Shangdong. However don't expect nomads follow they agreement. They will time to tiime raid your border and loot your cities.
 
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China was divided until 589 IOTL, so a similar situation will occur ITTL as well. Also, the Sui managed to keep itself together until 618 IOTL, although there was a big shift in the river in 602, and there were constant revolts as the invasion of Goguryeo began to take its toll. I specified in a previous update how Goguryeo managed to mobilize around 100,000 troops, and once it begins to expand further into China, maintaining 500,000 will not be an issue, especially after considering the potential population and trading volume involved. IOTL, Goguryeo managed to mobilize around 600,000 when the Tang invaded, so unless all of China rises up against Goguryeo, which will not occur until after 600, it will not be particularly difficult to crush minor riots, which will probably occur over time. In addition, Goguryeo will eventually control territory surrounding the Yellow Sea, along with the East China Sea, all of which were home to various maritime states that had extensive naval traditions and traded on a frequent basis.

Economy doesn't work. North Chinese is now 2 century constant war and conflict. Even not counting natural disaster like drought and flood, the Economy and population is exhausted. Unless you claim Mandate of Heaven (which means adopting Chinese culture) the conquered people won't strength your army nor will they easily submit. So your troop expansion is unrealistically high.
 
Rouran base wasn't central Asian They base was what is today's Mongolia and Hinggan Mountain. So Rouran surely will attack you. And now you are well into in North china Wei already making alliance with Rouran. Around 400 they at the helm of their power so, noone can stop them.
Basically most fierce military in North East was Nomads on Mongolian Plain. What is the Chinese employed tactic is bribe them with huge bounty and use them against the other enemy of China.

There are different definitions regarding the specific limits of Central Asia. This map shows three examples, in which one definition covers all of Mongolia and most of Western China. You can haggle over the specifics if you want to, but the fact is that throughout history, the states within the region as a whole were closely related to each other regarding several political issues, and often influenced each other. However, they were culturally and ethnically separate, generally speaking.

Anyway, your post only confirms my initial assumption that you either skimmed the posts, or ignored them altogether and focused on assumptions solely based on the situation OTL. In other words, please try to read the events within the timeline as thoroughly as possible. I specifically stated in a previous post that ITTL, the Wei suffered a decisive defeat on Canhe Slope in 395, allowing the Yan to retain its relative hegemony in North China, and the Wei to rely more on other states. I then went further to state that the Wei was on the verge of collapse before Murong Xi made plans to attack Goguryeo in 404, causing Gwanggaeto to respond within that year. The following conflicts freed the pressure on the western alliance, and eventually allowed the western and eastern alliances to converge and destroy the Yan altogether in 410. However, North China continued to remain divided among several entities until 417, when the Wei finally managed to gain influence over most, but not all, of the region, and will spend decades in order to further consolidate its rule and confront the holdouts to the west. In addition, the Rouran IOTL did not attempt to attack Goguryeo, and attempted to maintain more friendly relations with the Yan around 410, which was a rump state at the time, suggesting that it would be nowhere near consolidation around 400-20 either IOTL or ITTL. In addition, the Rouran would have to attack the Beili before even attempting to invade Goguryeo, and the latter would be prepared by that time for such an attack.

In other words, neither the Wei nor the Rouran would be even close to prepared when considering an invasion into Goguryeo, due to their relative weaknesses at the time. The Rouran would also be more concerned about North China, as it would view the Wei as a similar rival state that must be weakened in order for the former to extend its control.

Regarding to Wei, consolidating their control over China would be more easy than Gogureyo establishing control over Chinese proper. Since Wei-Xianbei will just adopt Chinese culture while Gogureyo will force they own culture.

So if you want to make Gogureyo stable you need to always make sure that Gogureyo and Mongolian Nomadic Empires was ally. So you direct them Against Power in North China and Western Expansion, while Gogurey will focus on consolidating his base on Manchuria, Hebei and Shangdong. However don't expect nomads follow they agreement. They will time to tiime raid your border and loot your cities.

I never stated once within this thread that Goguryeo will attempt to assimilate the Han Chinese in any way, shape, or form. The inhabitants west of the Liao River will be mostly left alone, culturally speaking, and political divisions will be based on cultural norms, similar to what occurred during the Liao and Yuan dynasties. Meanwhile, the Wei ITTL would be much more concerned with political consolidation, along with invading its neighbors to the west, which suggests incohesion for several decades.

Goguryeo will eventually ally with the Rouran, but the latter is nowhere near consolidated at this point to establish formal diplomatic relations. In addition, even when the Beili ceased to exist and Goguryeo allied with the Rouran, the latter was focused on attacking the Wei instead of raiding Goguryeo, due to the geopolitical situation at the time.

Economy doesn't work. North Chinese is now 2 century constant war and conflict. Even not counting natural disaster like drought and flood, the Economy and population is exhausted. Unless you claim Mandate of Heaven (which means adopting Chinese culture) the conquered people won't strength your army nor will they easily submit. So your troop expansion is unrealistically high.

Patience. This timeline is technically the third version, and it took me more than two years to find enough sources, and about half a year to finalize the posts within the timeline that you see here, not to mention revamping most of the details before. You're talking about issues that will occur centuries from my most recent update, although it took me several months to come up with the initial version of the events from 391 to 420. As a result, I only have vague outlines for the events that will follow centuries after the PoD.

That being said, there will be about 50 years of relative peace within North China after 417, as the Wei will control most of the region, and will maintain cordial relations with Goguryeo for decades as the former attempts to consolidate power. As a result, there will be plenty of time for the population within East Asia to recover as a whole, and when conflict eventually occurs, specific events that occurred during the peace will eventually lead the chaos to be much more limited, relatively speaking. Goguryeo will also probably claim the Mandate of Heaven around 450-500, and I thought that I made the basis for the troop expansion clear in my previous post.

If Goguryeo, which had a total population around 4-5 million, managed to gather 600,000 troops against the Tang, I don't see why they won't be able to gather an amount between 100,000-500,000 after it unifies the peninsula, although the actual figure will probably be around 100,000-300,000 when taking recruitment of the Han Chinese into consideration. Also, around 500-550, based on the extant censuses IOTL, the "Korean" population will probably be around 8-10 million, while the "Chinese" one will be around 30-35 million ITTL. The corresponding figures around 600-650 will be around 15-17 million and 50-60 million, respectively, although both will decrease significantly after the major war. In other words, adopting the Mandate of Heaven will barely affect Korean culture as a whole, due to the population ratios, and based on the fact that the Mongols, who were vastly outnumbered, mostly remained intact even after a century of rule over all of China, I don't see why the situation would be any different for Goguryeo.
 
There are different definitions regarding the specific limits of Central Asia. This map shows three examples, in which one definition covers all of Mongolia and most of Western China.

By today's standard Central Asia means OTL Kazakhstan, Uzbekstan, Tajikstan, Turkmenstan and Kygyzstan and part of Afganistan. So I use this definition.
 
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Anyway, your post only confirms my initial assumption that you either skimmed the posts, or ignored them altogether and focused on assumptions solely based on the situation OTL.

I read, but I see it conflicting. You are ignoring Nomads too much, which is impossible during this time. So I suggested you need Nomad alliance to deal with Chinese since As you said Yan hegemony over North China means they are even stronger than Gogureyo.


In other words, neither the Wei nor the Rouran would be even close to prepared when considering an invasion into Goguryeo, due to their relative weaknesses at the time. The Rouran would also be more concerned about North China, as it would view the Wei as a similar rival state that must be weakened in order for the former to extend its control

Rouran was proto-mongolian tribe, which had origin around Orkhon river, Southern Khangai and Kherlen river.

If Wei on the verge of Collapse, Rouran's are even stronger than OTL, since only they were power who could stop them. So I see Rouran pressured Wei a lot. Then Yan could maintain hegemony and I see them replacing Wei. Then in ATL, after Yan and Gogureyo made expansion, they will be attacked Rourans for sure. Since they was not Chinese but nomadic tribe who adopted Chinese culture Wei will no longer exist. So realistic will there is no longer Wei a lot of small Chinese Kingdoms. Which will bring us conflict between Rouran and Gogureyo, and expansion of Southern Chinese Dynasty.
 
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I never stated once within this thread that Goguryeo will attempt to assimilate the Han Chinese in any way, shape, or form. The inhabitants west of the Liao River will be mostly left alone, culturally speaking, and political divisions will be based on cultural norms, similar to what occurred during the Liao and Yuan dynasties. Meanwhile, the Wei ITTL would be much more concerned with political consolidation, along with invading its neighbors to the west, which suggests incohesion for several decades.

In this situation it will hard to maintain it. More autonomy means more consolidation in local princes, which in turn means more motivation for independence, (especially those Khitan tribes). So either you need to garrison large number of troops to suppress which is why I said your Empire is overstretched. Even Han had trouble with controlling Liaodong and Monchuria which gave birth to Gogureyo. And Han was far more hegemonic culturally, militarily and economically.
 
If Goguryeo, which had a total population around 4-5 million, managed to gather 600,000 troops against the Tang, I don't see why they won't be able to gather an amount between 100,000-500,000 after it unifies the peninsula, although the actual figure will probably be around 100,000-300,000 when taking recruitment of the Han Chinese into consideration. Also, around 500-550, based on the extant censuses IOTL, the "Korean" population will probably be around 8-10 million, while the "Chinese" one will be around 30-35 million ITTL. The corresponding figures around 600-650 will be around 15-17 million and 50-60 million, respectively, although both will decrease significantly after the major war. In other words, adopting the Mandate of Heaven will barely affect Korean culture as a whole, due to the population ratios, and based on the fact that the Mongols, who were vastly outnumbered, mostly remained intact even after a century of rule over all of China, I don't see why the situation would be any different for Goguryeo.

Around 650 AD Gogureyo was power which consilidated power with culturally assimilated population. BUt in your scenario we are talking about Gogureyo which only got streghtened. They need to assimilate Beakje, Shilla population from Peninsula, not to mention to extend its power in Japanese Islands.
You can't recruit troops from newly conquered land, because they will be unreliable. So your military backbone will still Gogureyo troops. By your scenario, you made newly conquered Chinese as your military backbone. That's why I said your estimation is too optimistic.
You can hire Nomadic mercenaries, but they won't be much loyal too.

And PLEASE UNDERSTAND ME CORRECTLY.
I'm not trying to undermine your TL. I just want to help you to make it as realistic as possible.
 
Please try to respond with single posts from now on. Splitting your responses into several posts makes it hard for me to read and drives up the post count for no reason.

By today's standard Central Asia means OTL Kazakhstan, Uzbekstan, Tajikstan, Turkmenstan and Kygyzstan and part of Afganistan. So I use this definition.

Fine, but historically speaking, the states within Mongolia were geographically, culturally and politically related more with their neighbors in the west than south. I personally wouldn't consider Mongolia to be part of East Asia mostly due to these reasons, although I can technically understand the other viewpoint as well.

I read, but I see it conflicting. You are ignoring Nomads too much, which is impossible during this time. So I suggested you need Nomad alliance to deal with Chinese since As you said Yan hegemony over North China means they are even stronger than Gogureyo.

Rouran was proto-mongolian tribe, which had origin around Orkhon river, Southern Khangai and Kherlen river.

If Wei on the verge of Collapse, Rouran's are even stronger than OTL, since only they were power who could stop them. So I see Rouran pressured Wei a lot. Then Yan could maintain hegemony and I see them replacing Wei. Then in ATL, after Yan and Gogureyo made expansion, they will be attacked Rourans for sure. Since they was not Chinese but nomadic tribe who adopted Chinese culture Wei will no longer exist. So realistic will there is no longer Wei a lot of small Chinese Kingdoms. Which will bring us conflict between Rouran and Gogureyo, and expansion of Southern Chinese Dynasty.

The ITTL versions of the Yan and Wei between 395 and 417 technically do not correspond to any states IOTL. The Yan has a relative hegemony in this scenario due to the tributary system, but only has actual control over Youzhou, Liaoxi, and Shandong, while it is eventually pushed out from Liaodong. It occasionally manages to seize territory further west at times, but for the most part, the majority of North China is divided among several states, none of which have a decisive advantage over the others. However, the western alliance is strong enough to hold out against the Yan as a whole, preventing the latter from expand further westward. In addition, the Rouran was more concerned with expanding to the west around the early 5th century. If it attempted to expand further south, however, the western alliance and/or the Yan would counterattack by either temporarily joining forces, or defending themselves separately. IOTL, the Rouran did not attack south until the Wei actively interfered, and considering that the states in North China would be more concerned with attacking each other, it's unlikely that the Rouran would also attempt to head south without consolidating more first.

As a result, by the time that the Yan is extinguished in 410, the Rouran will probably not attempt to attack either the western or eastern alliance because they could theoretically unify and counterattack in response, while both Goguryeo and the Wei would be much more powerful and consolidated by 417.

In this situation it will hard to maintain it. More autonomy means more consolidation in local princes, which in turn means more motivation for independence, (especially those Khitan tribes). So either you need to garrison large number of troops to suppress which is why I said your Empire is overstretched. Even Han had trouble with controlling Liaodong and Monchuria which gave birth to Gogureyo. And Han was far more hegemonic culturally, militarily and economically.

Goguryeo had minimal issues when taking Manchuria south of the Songhua River and expanding into Liaodong. Expand further west will probably present some issues initially, but the population would be mostly content if their way of life is generally maintained, and would be willing to maintain the relative peace. There's a reason why I'm planning for Goguryeo's expansion to take centuries instead of just a few decades, which allows its status to be consolidated within the peninsula before expanding much further west.

Around 650 AD Gogureyo was power which consilidated power with culturally assimilated population. BUt in your scenario we are talking about Gogureyo which only got streghtened. They need to assimilate Beakje, Shilla population from Peninsula, not to mention to extend its power in Japanese Islands.
You can't recruit troops from newly conquered land, because they will be unreliable. So your military backbone will still Gogureyo troops. By your scenario, you made newly conquered Chinese as your military backbone. That's why I said your estimation is too optimistic.
You can hire Nomadic mercenaries, but they won't be much loyal too.

And PLEASE UNDERSTAND ME CORRECTLY.
I'm not trying to undermine your TL. I just want to help you to make it as realistic as possible.

There's a very good reason why Goguryeo vassalized its neighbors for a few centuries before assimilating them, as it allowed the newly absorbed territories to be integrated more efficiently. In the case of Baekje, Gaya, Seorabeol (OTL Silla), and Japan, Goguryeo managed to defeat the southern alliance several times in order to cement their status as tributaries, so the vassals would be more than willing to send troops if they didn't want to be invaded again, at least for the short term. There will be another major conflict within the peninsula within the next few decades, but Goguryeo would have had made preparations by then, and the conflict will eventually be resolved within a decade.

Considering that IOTL, Goguryeo managed to mobilize around 50,000 troops in order to invade Baekje and the Yan, it won't be a stretch to expand that number to around 70,000 from Goguryeo, and the other 30,000 from the vassals, including Beili, Mohe, and Buyeo, as I specifically stated in a previous post. As a result, by 450, Goguryeo would be able to train 100,000 solely from the state alone, while the peninsula would most likely be fully incorporated by 500, which explains the 100,000-300,000 figure. In addition, Goguryeo had maintained a strong military tradition, and spent the vast majority of its resources on training the army since its foundation, including mandatory conscription. As a result, even the addition of a few ten thousand would make a big difference in the long run, not to mention that the large number available would facilitate rotation.

Also, I understand your viewpoints, but I think that you're still focusing too much on the states originating from or located within Central Asia, while mostly sidelining the actual geopolitics within East Asia. I can see where you're coming from, but I still don't think that you're understanding the actual situation within North China and the Korean Peninsula as a whole, as the borders and political identities have rapidly shifted within a decade or two, with significant differences from OTL.
 
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Please try to respond with single posts from now on. Splitting your responses into several posts makes it hard for me to read and drives up the post count for no reason.

OK.

Fine, but historically speaking, the states within Mongolia were geographically, culturally and politically related more with their neighbors in the west than south. I personally wouldn't consider Mongolia to be part of East Asia mostly due to these reasons, although I can technically understand the other viewpoint as well.

I don't know where you are getting info, seems your information are very inaccurate.
Proto-mongolian tribes was historically and currently live in East Asia and they are more connected with East Asia than Central Asia. While Turkic tribes more reside Western Part Mongolia and expand to Caspian Sea.
Historical land of proto-mongolian tribes is upper reaches of Liao river, Hinggan Mountain, Chifeng, Chengdu, Hohhot, Yellow river (till Ordos loop), Ordos vilue, Koknuur (qinhai lake) region.

The ITTL versions of the Yan and Wei between 395 and 417 technically do not correspond to any states IOTL. The Yan has a relative hegemony in this scenario due to the tributary system, but only has actual control over Youzhou, Liaoxi, and Shandong, while it is eventually pushed out from Liaodong. It occasionally manages to seize territory further west at times, but for the most part, the majority of North China is divided among several states, none of which have a decisive advantage over the others. However, the western alliance is strong enough to hold out against the Yan as a whole, preventing the latter from expand further westward.

You saying Yan has some degree of hegemony on North China. Which means more developed than Gogureyo and more populious. While you say they can't push Gogureyo from North China.
It is like saying Poland could win Germany in WWII. That is unrealistic. In order to Gogureyo manage North China there sholdn't be real power. So stories are conflicting.

The Rouran was more concerned with expanding to the west around the early 5th century. If it attempted to expand further south, however, the western alliance and/or the Yan would counterattack by either temporarily joining forces, or defending themselves separately. IOTL, the Rouran did not attack south until the Wei actively interfered, and considering that the states in North China would be more concerned with attacking each other, it's unlikely that the Rouran would also attempt to head south without consolidating more first.

IOTL Rouran couldn't attack North China because Wei was very strong power. They could contain Rouran. But ITTL There is no longer Wei and North China is more divided, I don't see any power to contain Rouran.
 
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I don't know where you are getting info, seems your information are very inaccurate.
Proto-mongolian tribes was historically and currently live in East Asia and they are more connected with East Asia than Central Asia. While Turkic tribes more reside Western Part Mongolia and expand to Caspian Sea.
Historical land of proto-mongolian tribes is upper reaches of Liao river, Hinggan Mountain, Chifeng, Chengdu, Hohhot, Yellow river (till Ordos loop), Ordos vilue, Koknuur (qinhai lake) region.

As I stated earlier, the exact definition of Central Asia, historical or current, differs based on perspective. In addition, the Xiongnu, Rouran (Xianbei), Gokturks, Uyghur, and Mongols all ruled areas from Western Manchuria to the Tarim Basin, while the Khitan (Liao) ruled areas from Manchuria to what is now Western Mongolia. This suggests that there was a general political cohesion within the area as a whole for centuries. In other words, we just happen to have different viewpoints, and I'll leave it at that.

You saying Yan has some degree of hegemony on North China. Which means more developed than Gogureyo and more populious. While you say they can't push Gogureyo from North China.
It is like saying Poland could win Germany in WWII. That is unrealistic. In order to Gogureyo manage North China there sholdn't be real power. So stories are conflicting.

Although the Yan sacked Hwando in 342, Goguryeo and the Yan were mired in a stalemate for decades within the Liaodong Peninsula IOTL, even though the latter continued to maintain a relative "hegemony" in North China from around 340-65, and again from 384-95 IOTL (until 405 ITTL). However, most of its dominance was conducted through its tributaries, mainly involving the Dai and Wei, while its possessions did not expand far beyond Youzhou. Later, Goguryeo remained intact even though it was severely weakened after Pyongyang was attacked and Gogukwon was assassinated in 371, as the Former Qin maintained cordial relations with Goguryeo, and was focused on attacking the Eastern Jin at the time. Meanwhile, the Later Yan was not established until 384, so it needed to initially consolidate its holdings, which was why it failed to expand much further east in 385, and although it had initial successes in 399, it eventually suffered severe setbacks in 401 and 403 IOTL due to Gwanggaeto's counterattacks.

Considering that IOTL, Goguryeo was concentrated on the southern frontier from 369-404, invading at least one of the southern states in 369, 371, 375-7, 386-7, 389, 392-6, 400, and 403-4, the Later Yan had plenty of opportunities to attack its eastern neighbor from 384-95, from its establishment to its defeat at Canhe Slope, along with several opportunities afterwards. However, the fact that the Yan only attacked Goguryeo once each before and after its defeat in 395 suggests that it was much more focused on confronting its neighbors to the west instead of mounting an attack to the east, even though the eastern state would have been exhausted after confronting Baekje multiple times. As a result, considering that Gwanggaeto had attacked Beili in 391 and 395 IOTL in order to provide a stable buffer against Yan in case of a potential invasion, the Yan would certainly not be in a strong position to invade Goguryeo, especially if the western alliance continued to hold out. In addition, Murong Bao (ruled 396-8 IOTL) was also a very cautious and indecisive ruler, so even ITTL, with more territory to the west, I highly doubt that he would conduct a significant campaign against Goguryeo.

IOTL Rouran couldn't attack North China because Wei was very strong power. They could contain Rouran. But ITTL There is no longer Wei and North China is more divided, I don't see any power to contain Rouran.

Yes, but the Yan still retains a significant position within North China, as it managed to mobilize 100,000 troops on Canhe Slope, and can theoretically do so afterward ITTL. Meanwhile, the fact that the Yan failed to conquer the Wei suggests that although the Rouran might be able to make significant incursions into territories of the western alliance, the latter will keep withdrawing strategically until the invaders retreat, or inflict a decisive defeat similar to what occurred to the Yan in 395. As I stated earlier, the Rouran will have no reason to invade south if another state does not interfere in its affairs, as it was interested more in consolidation from around 400-20 (the first khagan was established by 410, suggesting political disorganization until then). In addition, the fact that IOTL, the Rouran approached the Northern Yan in 410 in hopes of an alliance, but that Feng Ba's brother initially suggested refuting it, suggests that the Rouran was technically considered equivalent to a rump state at the time, diplomatically speaking.
 
Good TL, I intended to read it after seeing it nominated in the Turtledoves and I've finally managed to do it.

I'll keep following it, but...it's kinda difficult to read.

I think it would be better to separate the updates where you explain things (history of a certain polity, cultural stuff, ext...) and those where things actually happen. And while the narrative parts are the highlights, some of them were a bit "strange". Like the one where the Xian ruler explained the reason of his choice to his court, the courtiers words weren't much respectful (It seemed like you were answering to yourself, people have died for lesser slights to royalty).
 
As I stated earlier, the exact definition of Central Asia, historical or current, differs based on perspective. In addition, the Xiongnu, Rouran (Xianbei), Gokturks, Uyghur, and Mongols all ruled areas from Western Manchuria to the Tarim Basin, while the Khitan (Liao) ruled areas from Manchuria to what is now Western Mongolia. This suggests that there was a general political cohesion within the area as a whole for centuries. In other words, we just happen to have different viewpoints, and I'll leave it at that.

I have no problem with geographic definition. But you said Mongolian tribes are more connected to Western Asia ( Bactria) than East Asia. I'm said it is not true. Nomads was more connected to East Asian affairs. Once they beat by Chinese Dynasty they migrated to West.
Power consolidation in Central Asia (by more broad definintion) always went from East. 1st they consolidate power around current Mongolian land (around Orkhon river value) then they unite tribes and occupy lands around Ordos and upper reaches of Yellow river (current West Inner Mongolia), then unite tribes East Inner Mongolia. At this stage they would be very strong and will clash Chinese. If China relatively strong and has ability to expel Nomdac attacks, then Nomad state will expand to West (because Chinese often use Western tribes for their fight against Nomad State). It was how Monoglian- Turkic nomads behaved.
When Nomads got strong first thing they do is attack Chinese. Because it was major source of wealth in East Asia and beyond. For Nomads War is one of major source of wealth since they can't create wealth by themselves.
 
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Good TL, I intended to read it after seeing it nominated in the Turtledoves and I've finally managed to do it.

Thanks for stopping by.

I'll keep following it, but...it's kinda difficult to read.

I think it would be better to separate the updates where you explain things (history of a certain polity, cultural stuff, ext...) and those where things actually happen. And while the narrative parts are the highlights, some of them were a bit "strange". Like the one where the Xian ruler explained the reason of his choice to his court, the courtiers words weren't much respectful (It seemed like you were answering to yourself, people have died for lesser slights to royalty).

The problem is that we know virtually nothing about Goguryeo, not to mention most of its neighbors, because the vast majority of records that they produced were destroyed after they were eventually conquered. For example, even though the Samguk Sagi states that Goguryeo produced hundreds of volumes of text pertaining to its history, all of them are no longer extant. As a result, we can only rely on archeological evidence, such as tombs, records of military conflicts, reproduced in Chinese records and the Samguk Sagi, the latter of which extensively copied from the former, and other fragments, such as poetry and lists of titles conferred upon nobles. In addition, the Gwanggaeto Stele is one of a handful of extant sources that Goguryeo had produced, and even that must be reinterpreted as a work of propaganda with some fabricated details.

In other words, the cultural details that I posted within several posts earlier are essentially the limit of what we know, although there are some mythological/legendary tales which must be parsed as loose analogies, and I will go into more details concerning tombs later. This means that almost all of the remaining details are military-oriented, due to a limited amount of secondary sources mostly taken from Chinese ones, so I'm forced to mostly analyze conflicts and the reasons behind them, instead of talking about general lifestyles. For a very loose comparison, we probably know details regarding Goguryeo as much as we do concerning Carthage, which is minimal, generally speaking.

In terms of the dialogues, they're generally meant to convey the situation as a whole, and are not necessarily factually accurate. For example, I could theoretically have made Murong Xi carry out a purge of the aristocrats who opposed him, but that essentially means less or no dialogue regarding that specific situation, as virtually no one would be willing to speak out. However, if we have the court voice various opinions regarding what actions it should take, which is also technically plausible, it becomes much easier for the readers to understand the dilemmas at the time. The same also applies to Gwanggaeto's initial message to Murong Xi, as diplomatic correspondences were generally written, not spoken, and the dialogue between the Goguryeo and Baekje rulers would theoretically have been conducted in a much more formalized setting.

I have no problem with geographic definition. But you said Mongolian tribes are more connected to Western Asia ( Bactria) than East Asia. I'm said it is not true. Nomads was more connected to East Asian affairs. Once they beat by Chinese Dynasty they migrated to West.
Power consolidation in Central Asia (by more broad definintion) always went from East. 1st they consolidate power around current Mongolian land (around Orkhon river value) then they unite tribes and occupy lands around Ordos and upper reaches of Yellow river (current West Inner Mongolia), then unite tribes East Inner Mongolia. At this stage they would be very strong and will clash Chinese. If China relatively strong and has ability to expel Nomdac attacks, then Nomad state will expand to West (because Chinese often use Western tribes for their fight against Nomad State). It was how Monoglian- Turkic nomads behaved.
When Nomads got strong first thing they do is attack Chinese. Because it was major source of wealth in East Asia and beyond. For Nomads War is one of major source of wealth since they can't create wealth by themselves.

That's fine. Anyway, thanks for the criticism, and I'll try to keep your general points in mind when making future updates.
 
One more thing.
Around 400 major power on Northern China was Tuoba Wei or Northern Wei. They was minor-hegemon, they was one who stopped Rouran. By 398 they had conquered most of Later Yan territory north of the Yellow river. And around late 430 they could unify Northern China. But you mention very little about them. What happened to them?
 
One more thing.
Around 400 major power on Northern China was Tuoba Wei or Northern Wei. They was minor-hegemon, they was one who stopped Rouran. By 398 they had conquered most of Later Yan territory north of the Yellow river. And around late 430 they could unify Northern China. But you mention very little about them. What happened to them?

I thought I made it clear several times already, so please read the timeline over again. The Wei was decisively defeated on Canhe Slope in 395, which means that it was unable to consolidate control over North China as it did IOTL, while the Yan managed to retain its position until it finally collapsed in 410. I also mentioned the Wei several times as part of the western alliance, which should have indicated that it was not in a strong position if it had to rely on its neighbors to resist the Yan. In other words, the Wei has only managed to dominate most of North China by 417, so it's nowhere near the position that it was IOTL, although it will become more influential afterwards ITTL for a while. If the Rouran had conducted a large campaign ITTL, however, which would be highly unlikely considering that it would be busy consolidating, the states in North China would have most likely allied against the invaders, and neither side would be in a position to score continuous offensive victories given their relative decentralization at the time.
 
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