A Green And Pleasant Land
- Thread starter VVD0D95
- Start date
VVD0D95
Banned
If Edward still ends up marrying Margaret of France, you never know, Eleanor of Castile could survive here
It's certainly the outcome I'm hoping for, nothing against Margaret.
As far as Eleanor, the OTL Countess of Bar, yes, she was engaged to Alfonso III of Aragon, but Edward and Eleanor did not allow that marriage to actually happen because of the papal interdict Alfonso and Aragon were under for his conquest of Sicily. They held up that marriage in OTL long enough for Alfonso to die, Eleanor was dead by that point too, so Edward expediently made a marriage to shore up his Low Country alliance network with the Count of Bar. His daughter Elizabeth had been betrothed to John of Holland in OTL for that same reason, and why Alphonso's TTL marriage to Margaret will be made. It's not always about "prestige" in these marriages, the more I have read, the more I have seen it's about immediate political expedience and necessity. Edward needed to make some fast alliances in the north to continue to put political pressure on Philip IV of France, as there was also talk of Philip confiscating Gascony. Edward was ready to go to war in OTL, but due to Scottish and domestic affairs, couldn't make any immediate invasion plans. He was planning the same tried and true strategy that went as far back as Henry II in wanting to land and invade from the south and have his low country allies assist in the north. So despite being married to "just a count", Eleanor's marriage was very important to Edward's overall strategy and he would likely continue to make the same kinds of arrangements in TTL.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Would be neat if the two surviving princes TTL - Alexander and Alphonso - had a tie by marriage through their kids; it would also keep the whole Dunkeld claim on the English throne from getting lost or convoluted.
Philip had already been married to Joan of Navarre since 1284 and been King of Navarre jure uxoris since. Elizabeth was born in 1281, so that would be highly unlikely at that early moment. Edward actually had betrothals set up for most of his children well ahead of time, Eleanor was already intended for Alfonso of Aragon before the interdict, Joan initially for Hartman of Germany before he drowned, Margaret for John of Brabant. There may have been a small window for Joan between the death of Hartman and Philip's marriage to Joan, but it would have been small and the Navarre marriage was the clear way to go for France's interests anyway.
VVD0D95
Banned
I make no promises but I also won't shoot it down
Ah, apologies I meant Eleanor to Philip, and given that it is currently 1284 in the timeline, si there a chance it could be changed? Not saying it would be but stiull
France will still try and create mess in Gascony, which would let to the match arrangement as the result of peacemaking.
Your drafts mentioned Scottish match for Louis X - would it be the first marriage, butterflying away the Nesle affair more or less, or second, when the adultery screw up already happened?
I doubt it, if only because for Philip's father, Philip III, the marriage of his son to Queen Joan of Navarre is an absolute coup and a no-brainer to go through with. In one fell swoop, the Capetians have their line on the throne of Navarre, where they can pose all kinds of problems for Gascony, all while being able to weigh in on any and all goings on in the Iberian Peninsula. I don't know how Edward could sweeten the deal enough to convince the French king to marry his son to any of Edward's daughters without making serious, serious concessions, and it might not even be worth it at that point. Had any of Philip IV's sons had any surviving issue of their own, Navarre would have remained in personal union with France, all while providing a further place to invade Gascony from. That's just too good a deal to pass up for Philip III for his son and heir.I make no promises but I also won't shoot it down
Ah, apologies I meant Eleanor to Philip, and given that it is currently 1284 in the timeline, si there a chance it could be changed? Not saying it would be but stiull
A marriage between Joan of Acre and Charles of Valois, respectively the 2nd daughter and 2nd son of Edward I and Philip III would have been interesting. France and England were somewhat at peace at the time, Joan's first fiancee Hartman was dead and Charles himself wasn't married in OTL until 1290, not too long before Joan had married Gilbert de Clare herself. Not sure how likely it may have been, but it is certainly plausible, strategic, and "prestigious".
VVD0D95
Banned
I'm thinking a potential first marriage, as a consequence of Scotland's improved standing as a trading nation.
This is very true re the Philip and Joan marriage, one reason why Henry junior's death was such a tragedy for Edward I imagine.
And ooh Joan to Charles could be quite an interesting marriage, and would make the dynamics of things quite interesting later on down the line.
All provided Isabella isn't butterflied away, we're still in the early 1280s here and a lot has already changed. It would be quite amusing though, you're absolutely right. Grandpa Edward might be able to help shape TTL's future Edward II into shape, and if Grandma Eleanor is surviving too, you know for damn sure her grandson will get the finest education money can buy.
Letting Philip IV have more or less OTL children with a tweak here and there would make the TL less confusing later on.
One thing that can have big impact is Philip of Artois surviving past 1298 TTL, thus the whole Druon-novelized Artois succession crisis does not happen, and Philip IV is less likely to go a-hunting Burgundian girls for his heir/second-in-line, making Scottish match for the heir more plausible (and an alliance for possible plans on Gascony, dynastic marriage of Isabel or not).
One thing that can have big impact is Philip of Artois surviving past 1298 TTL, thus the whole Druon-novelized Artois succession crisis does not happen, and Philip IV is less likely to go a-hunting Burgundian girls for his heir/second-in-line, making Scottish match for the heir more plausible (and an alliance for possible plans on Gascony, dynastic marriage of Isabel or not).
VVD0D95
Banned
Agreed, the dispute over Artois never made sense to me, surely Robert was the rightful heir
I'm thinking about possible marriage plans for Margaret and Blanche of France. If Eleonora of Castille lives longer, the only way one of them may end up married in Britain is as TTL Countess of Cornwall (with Edward being 2 to 4 years younger than either girl, though Blanche was considered for Edward OTL).
VVD0D95
Banned
Seeing Blanche married to Edward could be interesting assuming of course Phil doesn't pull a fast one
Philip III was actually a bit younger than Edward, so even having him survive a bit longer would be pretty plausible too. Edward was always able to negotiate with him and was sometimes able to punk him around too. It was Philip the Fair that gave Edward nothing but headaches when he became king.