A Britain of Panthers and Lions: House of Oldenburg Britain

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Chapter 87: Conseil d'en haut
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    • VVD0D95

    Banned
    Chapter 87: Conseil d’en haut ​



    September, 1700​




    “Gentlemen, it is our great pleasure to introduce our grandson, His Royal Highness, the Duke of Burgundy to the Royal Council.” Louis said, there was applause then, the Dauphin had deigned to attend this meeting a rarity for him, but Louis was not fussed about that, his grandson was the future, and he was proud of the man he was becoming. “Our grandson is to be treated as a full and regular member of the council, and his advice is to be taken as advice from a council member for policy.”

    There was more applause, and his grandson bowed and said. “Thank you, Your Majesty.”

    Louis smiled, his grandson sat down on Louis’s right handside, Louis spoke once more. “Now, we are approaching the end of the campaign season and as such we must know what the situation is within the wider war effort.”

    Tellier his Minister for War spoke. “Sire, the current situation within Aragon has turned against us. Maximilian of Bavaria has defeated the Duke of Aliaga several times and has retaken the border towns. Indeed, Aliaga has just about avoided capture, though several of his followers have surrendered their garrisons and their land back to the Crown. As such, I would advise that we cut our losses and focus on the Spanish Netherlands.”

    Louis thought about this for a moment, then enquired. “And if we were to remain within Aragon, what would change? How would it effect things within the campaign in the Spanish Netherlands?”

    Tellier replied. “Sire, I believe that we would needlessly be spending money and resources on a campaign that brings nothing of benefit to the nation. Aragon should be considered nothing more than a divergence. Aliaga is a terrible commander, whilst we should really be focusing on trying to persuade Maximilian’s brother to change sides.”

    Louis nodded. “Then you know what your next task is.” Tellier nodded. “And what of the Spanish Netherlands, how are we progressing there?” He knew the Admiralty wanted to discuss naval matters, especially after the defeat at Dunkirk but he was not interested. The Spanish Netherlands were more of interest.

    “Sire, the Duke of Vendome has been defeated by Prince William of Orange at Louvain, whilst the Duke of Chartres has maintained the siege of Brussels. Yet Chartres writes that he expects there to be battle.” Tellier replied.

    “No. We do not want battle. Tell Chartres to fall back before Orange gets there. If he must leave Brussels untaken then that must be done. Fall back to Halle and consolidate his position there.” Louis demanded.

    “But Sire, if he falls back now, he may never get another chance as easy as this. Orange will build up the defences and the English will try and lead him out of Halle.” Tellier pointed out.

    “We do not care about that. If he were serious about taking Brussels he would have done so by now. Let the Dutch and English come together, their interests will be different, and there will be a big enough difference for us to play on.” Louis demanded.

    His grandson spoke then. “Sire, if I might?” Louis gave the boy a nod to signal he could go ahead. “I think that perhaps sending a partial force under the command of another commander into the Spanish Netherlands to be waiting for the British when they come would be advised. That way we can prevent aid coming to the Dutch and the Spanish.”

    Intrigued by this suggestion, Louis asked his grandson. “Who would you send?”

    “Chamilly, Sire. He is good enough for this sort of manoeuvre and will be sure to engage in proper defensive thinking.” His grandson replied.

    Louis agreed with the suggestion. “Very well, Tellier send the instructions to Chamilly, five regiments under his command to deal with the British.”

    “Yes, Your Majesty.” Tellier said.

    “Very well, dismissed.” Louis said, he wished to get his grandson’s perspective of this brief meeting, he watched the jealousy in his son’s eyes as he left the room, Louis ignored the man, his son was a dolt. Once the other councillors had gone and it was just Louis and his grandson left, Louis asked him. “And what did you make of that?”

    The boy smiled. “It was certainly interesting. Tellier is definitely different to how he is in the salons.”

    Louis laughed, Tellier was a scoundrel, but he had changed since his uncle’s death. “Indeed not. And do you agree with him that Aragon is hopeless?”

    “Yes, I would rather focus on gaining the Spanish Netherlands. Though I am curious as to why you did not ask about Milan, Sire.” His grandson asked.

    Louis sighed. “Milan is complicated. We must ensure that either Savoy gets it or that we take it completely. Yet, we must also toe the line there. The Papacy won’t like being surrounded. As such, mentioning Milan now is not the best decision.”

    His grandson looked surprised. “You mean to say that you think that there are spies listening to conversations of the council?”

    Louis sighed. “We do not think, we know. There have been spies caught numerous times. It is only now that we have finally devised ways to prevent such things from happening. Yet one must always be careful. Do you understand?”

    “Yes Your Majesty.” His grandson replied.

    “Good, now off with you, you have a wife to attend to.” Louis said laughing as the boy blushed.



     
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    • Rheinbund

    Rheinbund

    we are close to winter, so clashes will diminish, I do not see the Spaniards attacking, they will surely secure the Aragon, replenish their troops, secure important axes,
    I can see Maximilian make a tour of important Aragon town and receive an oath of loyalty;

    VVD0D95 said:
    Louis sighed. “Milan is complicated. We must ensure that either Savoy gets it or that we take it completely. Yet, we must also toe the line there. The Papacy won’t like being surrounded. As such, mentioning Milan now is not the best decision.”
    Click to expand...

    Savoy now think about the french offer and Leopold is more focused on securing the control of Milan so i don't see him attacking right now.

    So France could for now focus on a single front, if he manages to contain the German princes, he will be secure during the next month.

    The idea of the grandson is really good if the french manages to maneuver well, they will have three armies against two armies, the french goal would be to harass the English and the Netherlands armies (during the fall and the winter), while keeping their main army warm, so the two other armies would attack the lines of supplies, reduce morale, prevent them to set up their camps comfortably, French will take advantage of this superiority to weaken their opponents allowing them to have the advantage when during the springtime.
     

    VVD0D95

    Banned
    Rheinbund said:
    we are close to winter, so clashes will diminish, I do not see the Spaniards attacking, they will surely secure the Aragon, replenish their troops, secure important axes,
    I can see Maximilian make a tour of important Aragon town and receive an oath of loyalty;



    Savoy now think about the french offer and Leopold is more focused on securing the control of Milan so i don't see him attacking right now.

    So France could for now focus on a single front, if he manages to contain the German princes, he will be secure during the next month.

    The idea of the grandson is really good if the french manages to maneuver well, they will have three armies against two armies, the french goal would be to harass the English and the Netherlands armies (during the fall and the winter), while keeping their main army warm, so the two other armies would attack the lines of supplies, reduce morale, prevent them to set up their camps comfortably, French will take advantage of this superiority to weaken their opponents allowing them to have the advantage when during the springtime.
    Click to expand...
    Agreed re Aragon, Maximilian is going to secure that frontier during autumn and winter.

    Savoy are on the French side already.

    And definitely the question is can Chamilly March his men quickly enough to intercept the English
     

    ShortsBelfast

    France in the Spanish Netherlands is a threat to the balance of power so Britain will continue to work against them either by continuing the war or by encouraging the greater centralisation of the HRE as a counterweight. Neither is good for France. Unless Louis offers a settlement now with only modest gains on the border the long term prospects aren't great.
     

    VVD0D95

    Banned
    ShortsBelfast said:
    France in the Spanish Netherlands is a threat to the balance of power so Britain will continue to work against them either by continuing the war or by encouraging the greater centralisation of the HRE as a counterweight. Neither is good for France. Unless Louis offers a settlement now with only modest gains on the border the long term prospects aren't great.
    Click to expand...
    Indeed not, yet Louis is winning, and when you’re winning
     
    Rheinbund

    Rheinbund

    VVD0D95 said:
    Agreed re Aragon, Maximilian is going to secure that frontier during autumn and winter.

    Savoy are on the French side already.

    And definitely the question is can Chamilly March his men quickly enough to intercept the English
    Click to expand...

    I don't think so, but i wonder if the English want to join the Dutch, if they join the Dutch they will need to rush their armies until Bruxelles, and wait until the springtime.

    it will have two big problem too much concentration of man in a single place, encouraging the risk of illness and increasing the supply lines moreover it will transform the rapport of strength, France will have three armies against one, so during the fall and winter France could secure a lot of strategic place and try to encircle Bruxelles.

    I think that British would settle to Ghent, it's a strategic placce that will secure the western part of spanish netherlands that lead to Netherlands and it is easy to establish supply lines from the sea, and if the armies converges to Bruxelles, English armies could quickly react and join the English army.

    ShortsBelfast said:
    France in the Spanish Netherlands is a threat to the balance of power so Britain will continue to work against them either by continuing the war or by encouraging the greater centralisation of the HRE as a counterweight. Neither is good for France. Unless Louis offers a settlement now with only modest gains on the border the long term prospects aren't great.
    Click to expand...


    The problem is that German prince doesn't want to centralize and England wants war but not at any price if the Dutch and English armies are beaten and that Spanish seek peace they will obliged to accept the peace
     

    VVD0D95

    Banned
    Rheinbund said:
    I don't think so, but i wonder if the English want to join the Dutch, if they join the Dutch they will need to rush their armies until Bruxelles, and wait until the springtime.

    it will have two big problem too much concentration of man in a single place, encouraging the risk of illness and increasing the supply lines moreover it will transform the rapport of strength, France will have three armies against one, so during the fall and winter France could secure a lot of strategic place and try to encircle Bruxelles.

    I think that British would settle to Ghent, it's a strategic placce that will secure the western part of spanish netherlands that lead to Netherlands and it is easy to establish supply lines from the sea, and if the armies converges to Bruxelles, English armies could quickly react and join the English army.




    The problem is that German prince doesn't want to centralize and England wants war but not at any price if the Dutch and English armies are beaten and that Spanish seek peace they will obliged to accept the peace
    Click to expand...
    I agree, they’re going for Ghent here to store up for the winter
     

    ShortsBelfast

    It isn't a computer game. Circumstances may indeed force them to have to evacuate the Spanish Netherlands and Louis may be able to force a peace on Spain. But neither Britain, the Netherlands nor the HRE can in the long term accept French expansion into the Low Countries. It increases Britain's strategic risk and interferes with her continental trade and even more so the Netherlands. Western Germany faces all the same issues. The princes may not want to cede too much power to the Emperor but the HRE has popular acceptance as an entity at this point in time and the King of France as arbiter of their national destiny isn't going to be very acceptable either. And whatever treaties Spain may have been forced to sign won't magically wipe away any brooding resentment and desire to take revenge at a later opportunity
     
    Rheinbund

    Rheinbund

    ShortsBelfast said:
    It isn't a computer game. Circumstances may indeed force them to have to evacuate the Spanish Netherlands and Louis may be able to force a peace on Spain. But neither Britain, the Netherlands nor the HRE can in the long term accept French expansion into the Low Countries. It increases Britain's strategic risk and interferes with her continental trade and even more so the Netherlands. Western Germany faces all the same issues. The princes may not want to cede too much power to the Emperor but the HRE has popular acceptance as an entity at this point in time and the King of France as arbiter of their national destiny isn't going to be very acceptable either. And whatever treaties Spain may have been forced to sign won't magically wipe away any brooding resentment and desire to take revenge at a later opportunity
    Click to expand...

    Here i disagree with you, if France took the Spanish netherlands, yeah it will cause a lot of resentment but the reality is much more complicated a lot of people are also affraid of the Hasburg, some german prince are bribed to the french, other are interested by an alliance with the french because they want some territories, ... some country are under french influence, the HRE is not a bloc monolithic, they will never react like one man, it will be ASB. Just look Savoy they are scared of France but the persepctive to get Milan enough to make them join France it could be the same for other Germans prince, like Münster or Cologne. Concerning Spanish resentment yeah it's likely to happen but if you look OTL example, you see that in this period realpolitik is more important, if a conflict happened between Spanish and England, Spanish will be happy to ask for french assistance. Dutch, English, Spanish are three major colonial and naval power, clashes will inevitably happen, and in this three country a pro-french party exist, so a future alliance would be still be feasible. In fact Spanish without Milan and Spanish Netherland would be more likely to make an alliance with french because they will have little conflict between them, they could seek revenge but they could also say we are fed up all these war that threw these country to ruins,
    then staying neutral or making alliances of circumstance will always be possible, i'm pretty sure that many Spanish elite will be secretly happy to abandon Sapnish Netgherlands it costs them too much and will see Louis XIV stop to support the Aragonese as a gesture of good will even though most know that it because Aragonese rebel are screwed.

    I don't say Louis XIV is right, this conquest could be really bad for the french in long term, a new coalition because of this conquest is still likely, Spanish, Dutch, English and Habsburg could still alies against him in the next war and do a lot of harm, but i say that it's not determined it's not written in stone, any kind of event could happen.
     
    Last edited:

    VVD0D95

    Banned
    Rheinbund said:
    Here i disagree with you, if France took the Spanish netherlands, yeah it will cause a lot of resentment but the reality is much more complicated a lot of people are also affraid of the Hasburg, some german prince are bribed to the french, other are interested by an alliance with the french because they want some territories, ... some country are under french influence, the HRE is not a bloc monolithic, they will never react like one man, it will be ASB. Just look Savoy they are scared of France but the persepctive to get Milan enough to make them join France it could be the same for other Germans prince, like Münster or Cologne. Concerning Spanish resentment yeah it's likely to happen but if you look OTL example, you see that in this period realpolitik is more important, if a conflict happened between Spanish and England, Spanish will be happy to ask for french assistance. Dutch, English, Spanish are three major colonial and naval power, clashes will inevitably happen, and in this three country a pro-french party exist, so a future alliance would be still be feasible. In fact Spanish without Milan and Spanish Netherland would be more likely to make an alliance with french because they will have little conflict between them, they could seek revenge but they could also say we are fed up all these war that threw these country to ruins,
    then staying neutral or making alliances of circumstance will always be possible, i'm pretty sure that many Spanish elite will be secretly happy to abandon Sapnish Netgherlands it costs them too much and will see Louis XIV stop to support the Aragonese as a gesture of good will even though most know that it because Aragonese rebel are screwed.

    I don't say Louis XIV is right, this conquest could be really bad for the french in long term, a new coalition because of this conquest is still likely, Spanish, Dutch, English and Habsburg could still alies against him in the next war and do a lot of harm, but i say that it's not determined it's not written in stone, any kind of event could happen.
    Click to expand...
    The hAbsburgs will definitely want to stop France getting the Spanish Netherlands, as its promised to archduke Charles and his wife
     
    Blorg

    Blorg

    VVD0D95 said:
    Can you imagine someone like Sunderland begging? I can’t
    Click to expand...
    picture this
    Let me on this ship or i will have you flogged til we see your bone then we will keel haul you and if you live throught that i will dunk you in salt understand?
    then the sailors would be begging
     
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