A Britain of Panthers and Lions: House of Oldenburg Britain

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Valena

Valena

Found a suitable Tory heiress for Harley which may somewhat resolve his financial issues - https://gw.geneanet.org/bobatabb?lang=en&pz=martha&nz=butler&ocz=3&p=elizabeth&n=butler&oc=5
After death of her sister in 1713 Elizabeth Butler becomes the sole heiress of 2nd Duke of Ormonde, and thus the possible attractive catch (definite future suo jure Lady Dingwall and Baroness Butler, probably also Countess of Ossory, I don't remember how Irish inheritance of titles work, but given that both her father and uncle the Earl of Arran died childless/sonless OTL, she stands to inherit a lot of stuff). Ormonde and Harley were close enough for this marriage to be considered over Grafton one (Grafton may be a cousin to Queen, but he would not be able to pay nearly the same kind of dowry Ormonde would be able to pony up for his only surviving daughter).
That said, it's if Elizabeth Butler does not marry to Marquess of Blandford TTL instead of Elizabeth Shirley:)
 
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Valena

Valena

Expanded the table of ATL nobility marriages a bit:

Dukes of St. Albans
Charles Beauclerk, 1st Duke (b.1670). Married in 1691 Ruperta Hughes (b.1671), natural daughter of Prince Rupert of the Rhine. Issue
  1. Charles Beauclerk, Earl of Burford (b. 1692). Married in 1711 to his second cousin, Frederica Susanna Schomberg (and thus his issue descends from James I in three different ways, and from the Winter Queen in two different ways)
    1. Robert Beauclerk, Baron Heddington (b.1713)
    2. Lady Caroline Beauclerk (b.1715)
  2. Sophia Ruperta Beauclerk (b.1695). Married in 1715 to Robert Darcy, 3rd Earl of Holderness
  3. Lord Robert Beauclerk (b. 1698)
  4. Lord William Beauclerk (b.1699)
  5. Lord George Beauclerk (b.1701)
  6. Mary Beauclerk (b.1704)
Dukes of Berwick
James FitzJames-DeVere (after his marriage in 1693), Duke of Berwick, Earl of Tinmouth and Baron Bosworth (b.1670). Married Lady Diana de Vere (b.1679) in 1693 (TTL the quarrel over the Colonel of The Blues position never takes place and James is in good enough standing to marry the daughter of the Earl). Created Earl of Oxford in 1704 (joint creation with his wife), upon which he took double surname, and his children were to be of de Vere surname.
Issue:
  1. James de Vere, Earl of Tinmouth (b.1696)
  2. Diana de Vere (b.1697)
  3. John de Vere (b.1699)
  4. Aubrey de Vere (b.1700)
  5. Anne de Vere (b.1701)
  6. Henriette de Vere (b.1703)
  7. Charles de Vere (b.1704)
  8. Mary de Vere (b.1707)
  9. William de Vere (b.1709)
  10. Henry de Vere (b.1711)
Dukes of Grafton
Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Grafton (b.1663). Married in 1672 Lady Isabella Bennet, Countess of Arlington (b.1668).
Issue:
(OTL) Charles Fitzroy, Earl of Euston (b.1683)
(ATL) Anne Fitzroy (b.1691)
Isabella Fitzroy (b.1695)

Earls of Rochford
Henry FitzJames, Earl of Rochford and Baron Romney (b.1673). Married his first cousin once removed Lady Anne Lennard (b.1684) in 1709.
Issue:
  1. Thomas FitzJames-Lennard, Baron Romney and Lord Dacre, b.1711
  2. Anna Maria FitzJames-Lennard, b.1713
  3. Charles Henry FitzJames-Lennard, b.1715
Earls of Essex
Algernon Capell, 2nd Earl of Essex (b.1670). Married Lady Henrietta Butler, the youngest sister of 2nd Duke of Ormonde, in 1697 [The reason for this ATL marriage is that both OTL spouses of the Earl and Countess are unlikely to be in England TTL, having arrived in the retinue of William III OTL].
Issue:
  1. Thomas Capel (b.1697), Viscount Malden.
  2. Algernon Capel (b.1700)
  3. Lady Elisabeth Capel (b.1702)
  4. Lady Henrietta Capel (b.1712)
Countess of Essex is likely to be a Lady of Bedchamber to Princess of Wales & then Queen Caroline (she was one of Caroline's Ladies of Bedchamber OTL as Countess of Grantham).
 
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VVD0D95

Banned
Valena said:
That's the point that interests me before further table-making:)
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Given both their fathers served together in the low countries during the last war and in the low counties during the war before that I imagine they’ve got quite the relationship abd it is politically smart marriage
 
Valena

Valena

VVD0D95 said:
Given both their fathers served together in the low countries during the last war and in the low counties during the war before that I imagine they’ve got quite the relationship abd it is politically smart marriage
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So, it's Elizabeth Butler for future 2nd Duchess of Marlborough then? Given that she has became a sole heiress by 1713, I'd imagine an attempt will be made to marry Marquess of Blandford to her. And Harley will have to settle on Isabella Fitzroy for his son, limiting his financial ambitions a bit.
It's interesting how Marlborough and Ormonde will interact being in-laws now.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Valena said:
So, it's Elizabeth Butler for future 2nd Duchess of Marlborough then? Given that she has became a sole heiress by 1713, I'd imagine an attempt will be made to marry Marquess of Blandford to her. And Harley will have to settle on Isabella Fitzroy for his son, limiting his financial ambitions a bit.
It's interesting how Marlborough and Ormonde will interact being in-laws now.
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It is indeed. And for sure, do you think Marlborough should remain the professional head of the army when james ascends the throne?
 
Valena

Valena

VVD0D95 said:
It is indeed. And for sure, do you think Marlborough should remain the professional head of the army when james ascends the throne?
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He is highly respected by James, so I don't see why not (though there are Berwick and Ormonde in competition for his post after 1716 when Marlborough suffers his first stroke, and James may well appoint his uncle in high command).
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Valena said:
He is highly respected by James, so I don't see why not (though there are Berwick and Ormonde in competition for his post after 1716 when Marlborough suffers his first stroke, and James may well appoint his uncle in high command).
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This is very true. Hmm
 
Valena

Valena

Though Berwick may be in weird situation. He may be a convert and married into prominent moderately Whiggish Oxford family, but his brother and sister are still practicing Roman Catholics and his father was the last Catholic King of England. His candidacy would be highly contested from the Whigs, while Ormonde may have been more palatable to them.
While I can see James III appointing Berwick over Ormonde, some PR gestures may need to be made (assisted by Queen Caroline and Duchess of Berwick), such as marriage of Earl of Tinmouth into some prominently Protestant family to assure that the Berwicks are most definitely not the crypto-Papists (however the reality may be).
 
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VVD0D95

Banned
Valena said:
Though Berwick may be in weird situation. He may be a convert and married into prominent moderately Whiggish Oxford family, but his brother and sister are still practicing Roman Catholics and his father was the last Catholic King of Britain. His candidacy would be highly contested from the Whigs, while Ormonde may have been more palatable to them.
While I can see James III appointing Berwick over Osborne, some PR gestures may need to be made (assisted by Queen Caroline and Duchess of Berwick), such as marriage of Earl of Tinmouth into some prominently Protestant family to assure that the Berwicks are most definitely not the crypto-Papists (however the reality may be).
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Definitely agreed there. Hmm, I suspect the Cavendish family might be getting a semi royal marriage here then
 
Valena

Valena

A branch of them got a genuine Royal marriage (Henrietta Cavendish Holles as the Duchess of Gloucester), so Berwicks are the step down after this:)
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Valena said:
A branch of them got a genuine Royal marriage (Henrietta Cavendish Holles as the Duchess of Gloucester), so Berwicks are the step down after this:)
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Oh for sure aha, which is going either gnark the Earl of Devonshire or greatly please him aha
 
Valena

Valena

I'm thinking Mary Thynne, sister-in-law to Algernon Seymour, Earl of Hertford, for Count of Tinmouth, due to connections to Seymour clan, which has a lot of clout amoung Whigs (the youngest daughter of the Proud Duke himself is too young, being born in 1709 only).
Though Lady Rachel Cavendish, daughter of the Duke of Devonshire, may also go, as you suggest.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Valena said:
I'm thinking Mary Thynne, sister-in-law to Algernon Seymour, Earl of Hertford, for Count of Tinmouth, due to connections to Seymour clan, which has a lot of clout amoung Whigs (the youngest daughter of the Proud Duke himself is too young, being born in 1709 only).
Though Lady Rachel Cavendish, daughter of the Duke of Devonshire, may also go, as you suggest.
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Hmm Mary Thynne looks like she could do quite well at court
 
Valena

Valena

VVD0D95 said:
Hmm Mary Thynne looks like she could do quite well at court
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Well, her characteristics sound like a nice PR marriage, but Rachel Cavendish provides stronger connections, being the Duke/Earl's daughter and not daughter of minor noble whose sister managed a grand match into Somerset family. So, Diana and Caroline are going to make some picking definitely.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Valena said:
Well, her characteristics sound like a nice PR marriage, but Rachel Cavendish provides stronger connections, being the Duke/Earl's daughter and not daughter of minor noble whose sister managed a grand match into Somerset family. So, Diana and Caroline are going to make some picking definitely.
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Oh for sure, and I do think a marriage to Rachel could help heal the divisions that came between the royal family and the Devonshires because of the 1st Duke's scheming
 
Valena

Valena

VVD0D95 said:
Oh for sure, and I do think a marriage to Rachel could help heal the divisions that came between the royal family and the Devonshires because of the 1st Duke's scheming
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Agree. Mary Thynne is a bit of preaching to the choir, as the Seymours are already on the side of James III and his policies, while Rachel Cavendish is a useful alliance.
 
Valena

Valena

Table, V.3.0, with bugs taken into account (some of marriages were a bit unrealistic agewise)

Dukes of St. Albans
Charles Beauclerk, 1st Duke (b.1670). Married in 1691 Ruperta Hughes (b.1671), natural daughter of Prince Rupert of the Rhine. Issue
  1. Charles Beauclerk, Earl of Burford (b. 1692). Married in 1713 to his second cousin, Frederica Susanna Schomberg (and thus his issue descends from James I in three different ways, and from the Winter Queen in two different ways)
    1. Robert Beauclerk, Baron Heddington (b.1713)
    2. Lady Caroline Beauclerk (b.1715)
  2. Sophia Ruperta Beauclerk (b.1695). Married in 1715 to Robert Darcy, 3rd Earl of Holderness
  3. Lord Robert Beauclerk (b. 1698)
  4. Lord William Beauclerk (b.1699)
  5. Lord George Beauclerk (b.1701)
  6. Mary Beauclerk (b.1704)
Dukes of Berwick
James FitzJames-DeVere (after his marriage in 1693), Duke of Berwick, Earl of Tinmouth and Baron Bosworth (b.1670). Married Lady Diana de Vere (b.1679) in 1693 (TTL the quarrel over the Colonel of The Blues position never takes place and James is in good enough standing to marry the daughter of the Earl). Created Earl of Oxford in 1704 (joint creation with his wife), upon which he took double surname, and his children were to be of de Vere surname.
Issue:
  1. James de Vere, Earl of Tinmouth (b.1696). Married to Lady Rachel Cavendish (b.1699) in 1716
  2. Diana de Vere (b.1697). Married in 1716 to John Campbell, 2nd Duke of Argyll, as his second wife (a double match with her brother in the "Grand Whig Appeasement" campaign)
  3. John de Vere (b.1699)
  4. Aubrey de Vere (b.1700)
  5. Anne de Vere (b.1701)
  6. Henriette de Vere (b.1703)
  7. Charles de Vere (b.1704)
  8. Mary de Vere (b.1707)
  9. William de Vere (b.1709)
  10. Henry de Vere (b.1711)
Dukes of Grafton
Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Grafton (b.1663). Married in 1672 Lady Isabella Bennet, Countess of Arlington (b.1668).
Issue:
(OTL) Charles Fitzroy, Earl of Euston (b.1683). Married to Lady Henriette Somerset in 1713.
(ATL) Anne Fitzroy (b.1691), married to James Berkeley, 3rd Earl of Berkeley, in 1711 (Note: instead of her cousin; marriage inspired by greater business contact between Grafton and Berkeley, vice-admiral of Britain, than between Grafton and Lennox)
Isabella Fitzroy (b.1695), married to Edward Harley, Lord Harley (b.1689) in 1713

Earls of Clarendon
Edward Hyde, Viscount Cornbury and 9th Baron Clifton (b.1691) (in OTL died in February 1713 of fever; TTL this first cousin once removed of Queen Anne survives). Married in 1713 Lady Louise Lennox (b.1694)

Earls of Rochford
Henry FitzJames, Earl of Rochford and Baron Romney (b.1673). Married his first cousin once removed Lady Anne Lennard (b.1684) in 1709.
Issue:
  1. Thomas FitzJames-Lennard, Baron Romney and Lord Dacre, b.1711
  2. Anna Maria FitzJames-Lennard, b.1713
  3. Charles Henry FitzJames-Lennard, b.1715
Earls of Essex
Algernon Capell, 2nd Earl of Essex (b.1670). Married Lady Henrietta Butler, the youngest sister of 2nd Duke of Ormonde, in 1697 [The reason for this ATL marriage is that both OTL spouses of the Earl and Countess are unlikely to be in England TTL, having arrived in the retinue of William III OTL].
Issue:
  1. Thomas Capel (b.1697), Viscount Malden.
  2. Algernon Capel (b.1700)
  3. Lady Elisabeth Capel (b.1702)
  4. Lady Henrietta Capel (b.1712)
Countess of Essex is likely to be a Lady of Bedchamber to Princess of Wales & then Queen Caroline (she was one of Caroline's Ladies of Bedchamber OTL as Countess of Grantham).

Dukes of Marlborough
(ATL) John Churchill, Marquess of Blandford (b.1686) married in 1713 Lady Elizabeth Butler (b.1688), daughter of 2nd Duke of Ormonde.
For the rest see OTL
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Valena said:
Table, V.3.0, with bugs taken into account (some of marriages were a bit unrealistic agewise)

Dukes of St. Albans
Charles Beauclerk, 1st Duke (b.1670). Married in 1691 Ruperta Hughes (b.1671), natural daughter of Prince Rupert of the Rhine. Issue
  1. Charles Beauclerk, Earl of Burford (b. 1692). Married in 1713 to his second cousin, Frederica Susanna Schomberg (and thus his issue descends from James I in three different ways, and from the Winter Queen in two different ways)
    1. Robert Beauclerk, Baron Heddington (b.1713)
    2. Lady Caroline Beauclerk (b.1715)
  2. Sophia Ruperta Beauclerk (b.1695). Married in 1715 to Robert Darcy, 3rd Earl of Holderness
  3. Lord Robert Beauclerk (b. 1698)
  4. Lord William Beauclerk (b.1699)
  5. Lord George Beauclerk (b.1701)
  6. Mary Beauclerk (b.1704)
Dukes of Berwick
James FitzJames-DeVere (after his marriage in 1693), Duke of Berwick, Earl of Tinmouth and Baron Bosworth (b.1670). Married Lady Diana de Vere (b.1679) in 1693 (TTL the quarrel over the Colonel of The Blues position never takes place and James is in good enough standing to marry the daughter of the Earl). Created Earl of Oxford in 1704 (joint creation with his wife), upon which he took double surname, and his children were to be of de Vere surname.
Issue:
  1. James de Vere, Earl of Tinmouth (b.1696). Married to Lady Rachel Cavendish (b.1699) in 1716
  2. Diana de Vere (b.1697). Married in 1716 to John Campbell, 2nd Duke of Argyll, as his second wife (a double match with her brother in the "Grand Whig Appeasement" campaign)
  3. John de Vere (b.1699)
  4. Aubrey de Vere (b.1700)
  5. Anne de Vere (b.1701)
  6. Henriette de Vere (b.1703)
  7. Charles de Vere (b.1704)
  8. Mary de Vere (b.1707)
  9. William de Vere (b.1709)
  10. Henry de Vere (b.1711)
Dukes of Grafton
Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Grafton (b.1663). Married in 1672 Lady Isabella Bennet, Countess of Arlington (b.1668).
Issue:
(OTL) Charles Fitzroy, Earl of Euston (b.1683). Married to Lady Henriette Somerset in 1713.
(ATL) Anne Fitzroy (b.1691), married to James Berkeley, 3rd Earl of Berkeley, in 1711 (Note: instead of her cousin; marriage inspired by greater business contact between Grafton and Berkeley, vice-admiral of Britain, than between Grafton and Lennox)
Isabella Fitzroy (b.1695), married to Edward Harley, Lord Harley (b.1689) in 1713

Earls of Clarendon
Edward Hyde, Viscount Cornbury and 9th Baron Clifton (b.1691) (in OTL died in February 1713 of fever; TTL this first cousin once removed of Queen Anne survives). Married in 1713 Lady Louise Lennox (b.1694)

Earls of Rochford
Henry FitzJames, Earl of Rochford and Baron Romney (b.1673). Married his first cousin once removed Lady Anne Lennard (b.1684) in 1709.
Issue:
  1. Thomas FitzJames-Lennard, Baron Romney and Lord Dacre, b.1711
  2. Anna Maria FitzJames-Lennard, b.1713
  3. Charles Henry FitzJames-Lennard, b.1715
Earls of Essex
Algernon Capell, 2nd Earl of Essex (b.1670). Married Lady Henrietta Butler, the youngest sister of 2nd Duke of Ormonde, in 1697 [The reason for this ATL marriage is that both OTL spouses of the Earl and Countess are unlikely to be in England TTL, having arrived in the retinue of William III OTL].
Issue:
  1. Thomas Capel (b.1697), Viscount Malden.
  2. Algernon Capel (b.1700)
  3. Lady Elisabeth Capel (b.1702)
  4. Lady Henrietta Capel (b.1712)
Countess of Essex is likely to be a Lady of Bedchamber to Princess of Wales & then Queen Caroline (she was one of Caroline's Ladies of Bedchamber OTL as Countess of Grantham).

Dukes of Marlborough
(ATL) John Churchill, Marquess of Blandford (b.1686) married in 1713 Lady Elizabeth Butler (b.1688), daughter of 2nd Duke of Ormonde.
For the rest see OTL
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Looks perfect to me.

I am thinking that Robert Beauclerk would take up a commission in the army and would come under William, Duke of York and Albany's wing.
 
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