1930's Fascist Russia

Shadow1080

Year: 1950

Most of the Middle East is in ruins, the governments are set to rebuild it while at the same time maintain good relations with the USA and Israel. With the influence of Ba'athism destroyed, radical Islam and right-wing conservatism begin to gain more influence.
The Russian Republic faces economic post-war troubles, the United States extends its dollar influence to war-torn Europe and Asia, which gains influence across the world. Because of this, anti-American resentment (especially in the Middle East) grows.
Republic of China is slowly rebuilding the damages caused by the war and attempts to extend economic influence to former Russian Central Asia (which are now independent Turkic nations).
 

Shadow1080

On a side note, assuming FDR still is the president till his death in 1945, does Truman still win the 1948 elections in this timeline?
 

Francisco Cojuanco

MichaelWest said:
You do not need the lunatic ranting paranoia of Nazis, the existing hateful Christian rhetoric was enough to beget the Progroms under the Czar, simply add in their treachery under Bolshevism and how the Jewish businessmen profit while decent Christians starve and you sadly get enough the same violence. Antisemitism did not just pop up from no where, it had a long history and served to scapegoat problems too often, thus why we rather easily see the right-wing Russia as potentially murderous as the Communist one, both have goals so easily achieved by hate, murder and repression. The path I seek is something that prevents it or in failing to offers a better foundation to rebuild upon, hopefully any right wing mania is moderated by the surviving remainder who will resist, undermine and topple the dictatorship.
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The thing is that there's in this period two types of antisemitism.

There is the older, religiously-based one, where people hate the Jews precisely because of their religion. The usual "Jews are Christ-killers, Jews make matzo out of Christian blood" sort of thing. This sort of thing was depressingly common at the time.

Then there is the antisemitism of the Nazis and most of the other fascist movements. That one was based on supposed "racial" characteristics. I'd say the latter is more what you see in a typical fascist context, and grew out of 19th-century nationalist movements and a sense that religion alone is a bad basis to discriminate against other people. Though there are some prototypes such as the concept of limpieza de sangre.

The best way to distinguish the two types of anti-Semites is: if a given Jew converts to Christianity, do they remain the Other? The first would in theory say no, the other yes.
 
MichaelWest

MichaelWest

Francisco Cojuanco said:
The thing is that there's in this period two types of antisemitism.

There is the older, religiously-based one, where people hate the Jews precisely because of their religion. The usual "Jews are Christ-killers, Jews make matzo out of Christian blood" sort of thing. This sort of thing was depressingly common at the time.

Then there is the antisemitism of the Nazis and most of the other fascist movements. That one was based on supposed "racial" characteristics. I'd say the latter is more what you see in a typical fascist context, and grew out of 19th-century nationalist movements and a sense that religion alone is a bad basis to discriminate against other people. Though there are some prototypes such as the concept of limpieza de sangre.

The best way to distinguish the two types of anti-Semites is: if a given Jew converts to Christianity, do they remain the Other? The first would in theory say no, the other yes.
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And you have the "conspiracy" or "treasonous" rationale used to vilify the Jewish citizenry, each bleeds into the other, the Russians had a history sufficiently anti-Semitic and with the Bolsheviks a recent experience to renew the use of Jews as scapegoats no matter the underlying theory. I find the Stalinist purges aimed at Jews to reinforce that even with the left-leaning and intellectual foundations, a certain anti-Semitic urge emerges even in the Communists. That is not to say Russians are bad, but it shows the power this history wielded, and I think why the potential for violence is high in any resulting White Russia or follow on right reactionary regime.
 

Shadow1080

During WW2, many eastern European nations became fascist. If we have this alternate WW2, what is the fate of these countries? Do they join the war or they stay neutral? And what about China? Does Mao Zedong still gains influence and starts a communist civil war without the Soviet Union existing?
 
MichaelWest

MichaelWest

This is one of my pet theories and I know it sounds more conspiracy crap than I would prefer but I do find it uncanny how Stalin behaved and if he was an Okhrana operative. His views seem far more imperialist than communist, his virtual re-creation of the Empire, the seeming placement of himself as a Czar with his son to follow, I feel he used the Bolsheviks to attain and retain power as the old order died but was himself cut more wholly from its cloth. If we abort the Bolsheviks somehow, I tend to think Stalin emerges as the agent provocateur he may have been, perhaps playing a role in the White Terror. We know Lenin was used by Germany to disrupt the PG, he was sensitive to being cast as a German agent, so I find the shadowy accusations all around too pulp fiction not to consider a counter coup by Stalin the loyal Czarist to fully dismiss.
 

CountDVB

Shadow1080 said:
During WW2, many eastern European nations became fascist. If we have this alternate WW2, what is the fate of these countries? Do they join the war or they stay neutral? And what about China? Does Mao Zedong still gains influence and starts a communist civil war without the Soviet Union existing?
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They'd probably join Russia's side and it would probably become an East vs West Europe conflict. China is a wild card, but the Allies (especially when the US gets involved), would probably assist Kai-Shek some more though if he also shows fascist leanings, the US might support Mao in the events both knock each other out (there's also the Chinese Democratic League, which I can see the US supporting over either two, though communism would not be villified here when compared to fascism as the bigger boogieman here.)

China and West Europe would probably squish Russia from both sides (well, once Japan is defeated if they're involved in China, which is likely. Russia might try and exploit the situation, which would definitely get the Americans involved.) Eastern Europe would be rebuilt with Western Europe ideals and different nations supervising them and whatnot. Russia would probably be weakened if not divdied into several chunks.
 

Shadow1080

CountDVB said:
They'd probably join Russia's side and it would probably become an East vs West Europe conflict. China is a wild card, but the Allies (especially when the US gets involved), would probably assist Kai-Shek some more though if he also shows fascist leanings, the US might support Mao in the events both knock each other out (there's also the Chinese Democratic League, which I can see the US supporting over either two, though communism would not be villified here when compared to fascism as the bigger boogieman here.)

China and West Europe would probably squish Russia from both sides (well, once Japan is defeated if they're involved in China, which is likely. Russia might try and exploit the situation, which would definitely get the Americans involved.) Eastern Europe would be rebuilt with Western Europe ideals and different nations supervising them and whatnot. Russia would probably be weakened if not divdied into several chunks.
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I think maybe the Pearl Harbor still happens in this timeline with Russia declaring war on the US to assist Japan since it would have no choice.
 
twistedirregular

twistedirregular

Shadow1080 said:
What would be the fate of Denikin or Wrangel who would the head of the government? Do they flee? Get captured and imprisoned or executed?
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I'm not sure as they've probably relinquished power to whatever Russian democracy that follows the White military junta in Petrograd in the immediate aftermath of the RCW and for all we know, Denikin or Wrangel are apart of whatever fascist organization takes power in Petrograd.
 

Shadow1080

twistedirregular said:
I'm not sure as they've probably relinquished power to whatever Russian democracy that follows the White military junta in Petrograd in the immediate aftermath of the RCW and for all we know, Denikin or Wrangel are apart of whatever fascist organization takes power in Petrograd.
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I still think it would've happened in Moscow since Petrograd wouldn't remain a capital as it did in OTL.
 

jerseyguy

Russian fascists could manage to co-opt monarchist sentiment and pursue a more republican route if they included the monarchs in prominent government positions. In the same way that Puyi gained a power position in the CCP, a fascist Russia could maintain a "Royal Republic" with a figure head president-for-life who just happens to be the heir to the throne.
 

Shadow1080

I've also thought for a while, if the elections in this alternate were to take right after the Depression, the fascists would most likely gain power through parliament or presidential means in some kind of a general election. If the elections are way far from when the Depression hits badly, then I can already imagine a similar scenario to Mussolini's March on Rome or the 1932 Bonus Army riots. I'm sure people would lose complete patience to wait for an election and overthrow Denikin's government. Some fascist leader probably Kazembek would declare the Duma as corrupt and traitorous and therefore, establish a new dictatorship government or a combination of both. It all depends on what kind of mentality would the Russians have.
 
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