Are the RS-12 and the RS-71 both essentially otl's Blackbird? If so, why the fuss about the latter being lost when the former had already been?
Or am I misunderstanding something?
Or am I misunderstanding something?
2001: A Space-Time Odyssey
- Thread starter SpaceGeek
- Start date
Yes. In the case of the former it wasn't lost OVER THE USSR!!! In the case of the former, the secrets of it weren't leaked to the Soviet Union. There is a big difference between crashing your high performance spy plane in Britain versus crashing it in 1960s Cold War USSR (possiblely giving away it's secrets and capabilities).
And possibly not--aside from the possibility the CIA installed self-destruct devices strategically--to be sure one can only put in so many before detracting seriously from performance, and there would be the risk of one going off accidentally--the plane was presumably flying very high, so either the Soviets had to hit it with a huge SAM warhead that blew it to little bits, or if it was only damaged that it came down hitting the ground at Mach 1 or so, also accomplishing demolition very effectively!
The biggest security risk would be the pilot himself, who presumably knows his plane well and can, despite training, be made to talk about it. The telescopic Blue Gemini is looking pretty good now; but never implemented obviously--by the time the bitter lesson of 1970 came home surely unmanned recon satellites had advanced to the degree that there would be no need to send up an astronaut to mind the camera. Even in the mid-60s I don't see the big advantage to launching the camera with an Air Force photographer-astronaut. OK, he can take note of targets of opportunity and snap some shots of things no one expected to find. Well, couldn't a remote controlled satellite do almost as well? For the mass of an astronaut and his essential life support equipment and consumables, you can pack a whole heck of a lot of film--so you send it up and in addition to the intended targets it snaps photos of lots of low-probability targets as well, plus a few at random--then it reenters, is analyzed--now if something unexpected shows up, launch another satellite. Each one is pricy, but as pricy as a Gemini mission? As technology develops with charge-coupled device digital photography and higher bandwidth, well-encrypted signaling, there is no longer a need for the satellite to deliver film back to Earth at all--analysts get the data immediately in real time, and cameras can be directed to stuff they just noticed--if not on this orbit then one days later perhaps, and if something really hot is glimpsed, a sufficiently well-funded and paranoid program can have another satellite ready to launch on a moment's notice, ready to take another look within an hour. (Now you have two satellites in orbit, doubling opportunities for more coverage on future orbits). And if the targets have the capability to shoot down your satellites and decide the stakes are high enough to do it now (as they never did in all the Cold War) you haven't lost an astronaut as well.
If the Americans had that kind of tech by 1970, and I believe we did OTL, then it was just criminally stupid to send a Blackbird over the USSR--nothing justifies it, and OTL as I said we stopped doing it I believe before 1970 as the overflights were getting seriously dicey. I suppose the lower and slower RB-47s were kept at it, near Soviet borders, because they could operate with a different kind of stealth; A-12 "Oxcart" type planes are flying very high and very fast, but also are almost cherry-red hot from atmospheric friction that re-anneals their metallic skin every flight (and causes substantial thermal expansion--the fuel tanks are designed for the high temperature and are seriously leaky at low temperatures). So it is a small, distant, fast target but it glows in infrared; the Soviets could make it a regime priority to develop IR and radar that could detect and track it, even if was quite difficult to actually hit the target; the attention of the whole Soviet air defense forces would be focused on at the very least following it. Whereas the old B-47s flew in the same flight envelope as the B-52, its successor--and thus could hope to get in and out literally under the radar. Sometimes they did--sometimes they got caught.
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Regarding the UR-700 and its engines--on one hand, I forget if I posted anything in this thread yet about how the idea of a 5000 ton hypergolic propelled rocket grabs me--those who know my views and story as I've shared can probably guess. One way or another I won't reiterate all that--just assume it goes without saying that Shevek23 thinks the UR-700 is as criminally stupid as a US President ordering an SR-71 to scout out Baikonur again in 1970. And worse of course because of the sheer scale of the catastrophe.
Between Michel Van disclosing the sheer tonnage of toxic glop the thing is made of and would produce in a conflagration, and e of pi pointing out that some of these poisons are deadly in very small doses, my dislike of this option should not be too surprising or controversial, and the fact that alternatives exist is what makes it stupid rather than tragic. I should point out that while a pad or launch failure would be spectacularly destructive on the site, and give it a good heavy wallop of long-lasting contamination, a successful launch is still strewing all those toxic combustion products through thousands of miles of atmosphere. One UR-700 masses about the mass of seven UR-500 aka "Proton," and many many Protons have been launched OTL. Never for a manned launch to be sure, but there have been lots more unmanned than manned launches and the Protons have carried up a good portion of the total tonnage to orbit and beyond the USSR and Russia after it have sent up. So, not to worry, right? Kazakhstan and central Siberia are not toxic wastelands, now are they! Well that's a loaded and ironically rhetorical question--we would hardly expect the Soviet Union, or even its successor states, to be totally open with disclosure, or even to seriously investigate where the answer is likely to please no one. I have indeed, in composing earlier drafts of this rant of mine, come across at least claims by certain people who say they have indeed been poisoned--and this from a long series of quite successful launches. Let's just leave it an open question for now, put successful UR-700 launches (if any) in perspective of the cumulative total of Soviet and Russian Proton launches divided by seven, and acknowledge that a UR-700 launch failure would be a spectacle best observed from one of those CIA spy satellites I was talking about.
It would be nice if someone has statistics, from the Nedelin incident, the American accidents with Titans, or other sources about just how long lethal or worse doses of the typical products of a hypergolic accident remain in the soil or even air and water around the site before dispersing or degrading to low levels of danger--and integrating in the long-term carcinogenic effects as best known nowadays. The cumulative low-level danger is one the Soviet and post-Soviet Russian regimes is likely to discount or ignore completely and thus will probably account for most of the fatality outcome of each disaster (plus those due to successes!) But if a single UR-700 blows up on the pad, how long are we talking before the prompt poison danger falls below acknowledged thresholds? Months? Years? Decades? It strongly affects the storyline--perhaps a single blow can wipe out the entire Baikonur complex as a useful rocket base, and keep it shut down completely for years. Perhaps it is not as bad as all that! (In the short run--if this terrible plan is not aborted I expect essentially the whole Soviet astronautical community to be dead of cancer by 1990, 2000 at the latest for the toughest outliers). Anyway some reliable numbers would be nice, if anyone in the world knows them.
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Now on the other hand--if Glushko starts testing the new engine in 1961, and there is a possibility of a launch in 1968, while I quite agree that if there are only 27 test firings in the entire interim, the odds are the first attempt at a launch will go up in a blaze. But even if it is true that OTL Glushko also started in 1961, I don't see that it follows he'd only do the sketchy test program of OTL. Seven years strikes me as a moderately long time; while surely many of those years are required to simply develop the first draft of the design, there should be time for a test program of many hundreds of firings. And even time to acknowledge failures and setbacks and develop solutions to them, just as the F-1 team did in the USA OTL. What was lacking OTL for Chelomei and Glushko was regime priority; OTL Korolev had it, here Chelomei does. From this priority funds and perseverance might be forthcoming. OTL Chelomei was not trying to reach the Moon any earlier than 1973; I presume that relaxed schedule meant the Kremlin recognized that if they had to fall back on the UR-700 the Americans would have been to the Moon and back by then, so the plan was just to demonstrate that Russians could also do it. On that schedule he should have both time and funding to get the job done (though Khrushchev died OTL of natural causes around that time).
Even if he is on an advanced schedule meant to beat the Americans to the first Moon landing, if he has the full support of the regime then he ought to have time and resources to get the engines to function correctly.
e of pi knows more about this stuff than I do; presumably there are time constraints I don't know very well preventing a program of 500 firings being done in less than a given amount of time. Perhaps one can only do one firing a day, or even have to wait longer; perhaps building 10 or 20 sites that do the tests on multiple prototypes at once is too costly. Still, I suspect with the full will of the Kremlin and a bit of the hardest kind of administrative courage--that is, the will to scrap failed efforts and try to replace them, and courage to face the nation's top brass and tell them there are delays, progress will still happen.
We didn't have CCD and radio-transmitted imagery until the mid-to-late 70s, and even then the aircraft imagery had better resolution. Still, even a K-8 or K-9 would be a better fit for just "see what they have on the pad" than an SR-71.
Rains would be expected, based on OTL serious Soviet accidents, to clear the pad within a few months, though those were much smaller levels of toxins. And, of course, the long term effects of those doses remain unknown--as you're well aware, they didn't fully grasp the chronic issues even in the US.
First firings took place IOTL in 1965 and 1966 (I think of the powerpack, then the full engine). That gives only 1966 and 1967 to do full firings. While they could perhaps do 500 firings inthere, they couldn't do it and actualy have them produce meaningful analysis. Generally you do a few test firings or even just one, then a few days or weeks of analysis--more in the event of a failure--and then you're ready to do another firing. You have to write the period 1961 to 1965 off as design time--designing an engine this big simply takes time.
It's only 1965 or so on that the engine would be available for testing. The F-1 was in a similar position in 1957, and took until 1964 to be debugged. Doing a proper test series and debugging such a large engine in such a short time as two years when the F-1 team took seven is...well, implausible.
Shevek23 remark about UR-700 failure
it will not be a big KAARBOOM in size if small nuke. NTO/UDMH is not powerful as Lox/Rp-1 or Lox /Lh2.
the soviets are not stupid they build Baikonur Cosmodrome in form gigantic Y of 40 km in size
the workers town of Leninsk is 40 km south from launch areas left and right of Y
if UR-700 engine explode on the Launch pad, it will damage the installation, but it will not leave a big crater in landscape
and UR-700 launch Pad gonna have similarity to UR-500 Launch pad
Pink: the Fueling system for rocket
green: holding system for UR-500
grey: concrete structure
Yellow: upperpart Blast pit for Engine exhaust, under part access to the Fueling system.
note that landscape is flat, it's easy to remove the contaminated top soil with bulldozes, while the Launch pad is decontaminated with tons of water.
or like Soviets deal with UR-500 "problem" wait until it's rain...
Downrage is another thing i guess that UR-700 bast off with inclination 51.6 degrees.
this article show who soviet and russian dealer with situation
anecdote
Chertok asked Chelomei what would happen if, God forbid, such a booster exploded on the launch pad. Wouldn't the entire launch complex be rendered a dead zone for 18 to 20 years?
Chelomei's reply was that it wouldn't explode, since Glushko's engines were reliable and didn't fail.
later on 1969 April 2. a UR-500 had to launch a Mars probe M-69
To come to see by the leaders of the space industry on save distance
but the UR-500 malfunction and rocket flew at an altitude of 50 m horizontally, then exploding next to the launch pad,
spraying the whole complex with poisonous propellants that were quickly spread by the wind.
Everyone stampeded to their cars for a escape….
it will not be a big KAARBOOM in size if small nuke. NTO/UDMH is not powerful as Lox/Rp-1 or Lox /Lh2.
the soviets are not stupid they build Baikonur Cosmodrome in form gigantic Y of 40 km in size
the workers town of Leninsk is 40 km south from launch areas left and right of Y
if UR-700 engine explode on the Launch pad, it will damage the installation, but it will not leave a big crater in landscape
and UR-700 launch Pad gonna have similarity to UR-500 Launch pad
Pink: the Fueling system for rocket
green: holding system for UR-500
grey: concrete structure
Yellow: upperpart Blast pit for Engine exhaust, under part access to the Fueling system.
note that landscape is flat, it's easy to remove the contaminated top soil with bulldozes, while the Launch pad is decontaminated with tons of water.
or like Soviets deal with UR-500 "problem" wait until it's rain...
Downrage is another thing i guess that UR-700 bast off with inclination 51.6 degrees.
this article show who soviet and russian dealer with situation
anecdote
Chertok asked Chelomei what would happen if, God forbid, such a booster exploded on the launch pad. Wouldn't the entire launch complex be rendered a dead zone for 18 to 20 years?
Chelomei's reply was that it wouldn't explode, since Glushko's engines were reliable and didn't fail.
later on 1969 April 2. a UR-500 had to launch a Mars probe M-69
To come to see by the leaders of the space industry on save distance
but the UR-500 malfunction and rocket flew at an altitude of 50 m horizontally, then exploding next to the launch pad,
spraying the whole complex with poisonous propellants that were quickly spread by the wind.
Everyone stampeded to their cars for a escape….
China 1965
Mao Zedong Dies, Leader of Red China Revolution; Successor Uncertain.
Mao Zedong's death on January 1st 1965, shocked world leaders as they looked to China for what would happen next. Mao was 72 and it was completely possible he had simpley died of natual causes as was claimed (specifically a heart attack) although rumors that circulated said otherwise. As for what would happen next, nobody could really know.
A group that would later become known as the "Gang of Four" consisting of Mao's last wife Jiang Qing, Yao Wenyuan, Wang Hongwen and Zhang Chunqiao attempted to seize power from within China in a coup d'état. While they were able to hold on to regional control of Beijing for 30 days the Peoples Liberation Army of China were able to mount a successful counter-coup against them. Historians looking back on the incident note that while the death of Mao was the perfect timing for such a coup to take place it was unlikely it ever could have worked given the fact that the Gang of Four had no control over the PLA only the ministries of Sport, health and culture.
After their arrest they were imprisoned for four years untill they eventually stood at a show trial on February 3rd 1969 and in turn convicted of
murdering Mao zedong inorder to take over the state and other anti-party activities.
During the trial, Jiang Qing in particular was extremely defiant, protesting loudly and bursting into tears at some points. She was the only member of the Gang of Four who bothered to argue on her behalf. The defence's argument was that she obeyed the orders of Chairman Mao Zedong at all times.
Jiang Qing reaction during her trail on accusation she has killed Mao
Zhang Chunqiao refused to admit any wrong. Yao Wenyuan and Wang Hongwen expressed repentance and confessed their alleged crimes.
Jiang Qing and Zhang Chunqiao received death sentences that were later commuted to life imprisonment, while Wang Hongwen and Yao Wenyuan were given life and twenty years in prison, respectively. All members of the Gang of Four have since died; Jiang Qing committed suicide in 1991, Wang Hongwen died in 1992, and Zhang Chunqiao and Yao Wenyuan died in 2005.
After the rise and downfall of the Gang of Four (a period of time known as the "30 Day Crisis") Lin Biao decisively emerged as the leading pre-eminent leader of China. This would have a powerful impact on China and the worlds future for decades to come.
Mao Zedong Dies, Leader of Red China Revolution; Successor Uncertain.
Mao Zedong's death on January 1st 1965, shocked world leaders as they looked to China for what would happen next. Mao was 72 and it was completely possible he had simpley died of natual causes as was claimed (specifically a heart attack) although rumors that circulated said otherwise. As for what would happen next, nobody could really know.
A group that would later become known as the "Gang of Four" consisting of Mao's last wife Jiang Qing, Yao Wenyuan, Wang Hongwen and Zhang Chunqiao attempted to seize power from within China in a coup d'état. While they were able to hold on to regional control of Beijing for 30 days the Peoples Liberation Army of China were able to mount a successful counter-coup against them. Historians looking back on the incident note that while the death of Mao was the perfect timing for such a coup to take place it was unlikely it ever could have worked given the fact that the Gang of Four had no control over the PLA only the ministries of Sport, health and culture.
After their arrest they were imprisoned for four years untill they eventually stood at a show trial on February 3rd 1969 and in turn convicted of
murdering Mao zedong inorder to take over the state and other anti-party activities.
During the trial, Jiang Qing in particular was extremely defiant, protesting loudly and bursting into tears at some points. She was the only member of the Gang of Four who bothered to argue on her behalf. The defence's argument was that she obeyed the orders of Chairman Mao Zedong at all times.
Jiang Qing reaction during her trail on accusation she has killed Mao
Zhang Chunqiao refused to admit any wrong. Yao Wenyuan and Wang Hongwen expressed repentance and confessed their alleged crimes.
Jiang Qing and Zhang Chunqiao received death sentences that were later commuted to life imprisonment, while Wang Hongwen and Yao Wenyuan were given life and twenty years in prison, respectively. All members of the Gang of Four have since died; Jiang Qing committed suicide in 1991, Wang Hongwen died in 1992, and Zhang Chunqiao and Yao Wenyuan died in 2005.
After the rise and downfall of the Gang of Four (a period of time known as the "30 Day Crisis") Lin Biao decisively emerged as the leading pre-eminent leader of China. This would have a powerful impact on China and the worlds future for decades to come.
what for coincidence
I and SpaceGeek working on that
already i notice in post, that Dyna-soar was killed by politics.
and we will focus on X-15 program in later post.
very good new chapter, the situation on China will have impact on the Space Race . I do wonder what will the Americans find on the Moon that will lead to the Launch of the Discovery . Cant hardly wait for the next chapters .
very good new chapter, the situation on China will have impact on the Space Race . I do wonder what will the Americans find on the Moon that will lead to the Launch of the Discovery . Cant hardly wait for the next chapters .
A China without interference of Mao Zedong Cultural Revolution !
seems USA will have series of nasty surprises...
First proposed on December 30th 1954, the North American X-15 was an experimental rocket powered hypersonic aircraft. The X-15 was built by two manufacturers: North American Aviation was contracted for the airframe in November 1955, and Reaction Motors was contracted for building the engines in 1956.
After years of development the first unpowered gliding flight was launched with Scott Crossfeild at the controls, June 8th 1959. Because of delays in development of the XLR99 the initial powered flights beginning September 17th 1959 used the less powerful XLR11 engines as a substitute. It wasn't until November 15th 1959 that the unavailability of higher thrust engines was cured. By March 7th 1961 the X-15 was breaking Mach 4.43 in high speed ballistic research flight. June 23rd 1961 it pushed through to Mach 5.23 and by November 9th 1961 had broken Mach 6.04 as the vehicle attained higher and higher speeds.
While high speed flights were of high scientific value to both the young NASA and USAF the X-15 could do far greater still. On July 17th 1962 X-15 Test Pilot Robert M. White flew X-15 Flight No-62 on a mission that crushed all previous altitude records made by any other aircraft by reaching an altitude of 95.9 km altitude (314,633 feet). This made him eligeble for USAF Astronaut Wings by crossing the 80 km threshold (the Mesopause and hence what the USAF considered the "Edge of Space"). 13 other missions traveled higher than 80 km other the lifespan of the X-15 program.
Three X-15s were built, X-15A-1, X-15A-2 and X-15A-3. When X-15A-2 was damaged in a crashlanding in 1962 there was immediet talk of modifying the vehicle towards a delta-wing design and upgrading it's engines. This push for a second generation X-15 was a high priority for NASA when rumors surfaced that the Soviet Union was developing a space-plane of their own (a rumor that turned out to be baseless) By October 1965 the vehicle was being dropped by the B-52 for high speed Mach 7-8 flights. Later it was launched from the supersonic XB-70 "Valykrie" at speeds already exceeding Mach 3.
After years of development the first unpowered gliding flight was launched with Scott Crossfeild at the controls, June 8th 1959. Because of delays in development of the XLR99 the initial powered flights beginning September 17th 1959 used the less powerful XLR11 engines as a substitute. It wasn't until November 15th 1959 that the unavailability of higher thrust engines was cured. By March 7th 1961 the X-15 was breaking Mach 4.43 in high speed ballistic research flight. June 23rd 1961 it pushed through to Mach 5.23 and by November 9th 1961 had broken Mach 6.04 as the vehicle attained higher and higher speeds.
While high speed flights were of high scientific value to both the young NASA and USAF the X-15 could do far greater still. On July 17th 1962 X-15 Test Pilot Robert M. White flew X-15 Flight No-62 on a mission that crushed all previous altitude records made by any other aircraft by reaching an altitude of 95.9 km altitude (314,633 feet). This made him eligeble for USAF Astronaut Wings by crossing the 80 km threshold (the Mesopause and hence what the USAF considered the "Edge of Space"). 13 other missions traveled higher than 80 km other the lifespan of the X-15 program.
Three X-15s were built, X-15A-1, X-15A-2 and X-15A-3. When X-15A-2 was damaged in a crashlanding in 1962 there was immediet talk of modifying the vehicle towards a delta-wing design and upgrading it's engines. This push for a second generation X-15 was a high priority for NASA when rumors surfaced that the Soviet Union was developing a space-plane of their own (a rumor that turned out to be baseless) By October 1965 the vehicle was being dropped by the B-52 for high speed Mach 7-8 flights. Later it was launched from the supersonic XB-70 "Valykrie" at speeds already exceeding Mach 3.
So the Valkyrie survives in this TL?
With Lin Biao in charge of China, you can also kiss any trip to Beijing by Nixon goodbye. Would we expect to see a more militarized China and even a large space program complete with manned missions and even a PLA orbital weapon (also seen in the film orbiting Earth alongside the USAF, German Luftwaffe, and French ones)?
With Lin Biao in charge of China, you can also kiss any trip to Beijing by Nixon goodbye. Would we expect to see a more militarized China and even a large space program complete with manned missions and even a PLA orbital weapon (also seen in the film orbiting Earth alongside the USAF, German Luftwaffe, and French ones)?
China will be more active in Vietnam as OTL.
yes the fatal group photo never happen
The Two Xb-70 give value data on supersonic flight what will be used for program called SST.
No comment on FOBS and orbital weapon for moment...
very good new Chapter, those Space planes are just amazing , Maybe the US and Future EU , will join forces in developing amazing space planes .and NATO also expanded .i hope that the Vietnam War does not happen , since Russia is starting to Change . And they are moving to an Capitalist system ,and Democratic . I Suspect that China will be the last Communist Stronghold, in the World soon. Cant hardly wait for the next chapters.
The year of two french Presidents.
Next part on France
The year of two french Presidents.
After the failed coup d'état, President de Gaulle ended the Civil-war, in March, 1961 by signing the Évian accords, making Algeria a independent nation.
What followed was a series of deadly terrorist attacks by OAS, with it climax on september 8. 1961. President de Gaulle was on way to his Home, as OAS detonate a shrapnel bomb as president car past.
He survived, but need a long healing process in Hospital and was unable to govern for a year.
the 1958 constitution of the Fifth Republic was formal, The president of the french senate, become Interim Presidency of the Republic and that was in 1961,
Gaston Monnerville, literally a colorful politician: The grandson of a slave who grew up in French Guiana !
He was one of the most influential politicians in France in his time. Georges Pompidou had a hard time with him. The French media called it the "cohabitation" were President and prime minister are from divergent political parties.
The near success to kill the president let to biggest manhunt in history of France, the ministry of justice wanted to make an example, by destroying OAS once for all.
In the mean time another statesman make a big impression in France: West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer, he visit the hospitalize de Gaulle regularly.
Also Adenauer press statement that he was private visit not on Official state visit, the french and german public is astonish to hear that two were friendly since 1958!
On April 1962 Raoul Salan now leader of OAS, was arrested and executed for his crime in march 1963.
In october 1962 President De Gaulle returned to Politic, the events and interim presidency of Monnerville showed the people of France, that the Fifth Republic was stable and secure.
But de Gaulle was confronted with some programs Monnerville had signed as interim president
ESDO and it's accelerate convention, join venture program with Britain to build of Supersonic airliner and military aircraft and also Social program in france.
in 1963 de Gaulle makes history ,first with British French defense treaty in wake of GAM-87 Skybolt fiasco happened december 1962.
Then with the French and west Germany cooperation Treaty and de Gaulle triumph visit to Germany.
The British-French defense treaty was actually the brainchild of Gaston Monnerville after meetings with British prime minister Harold Macmillan. in wake of The Brezhnev Affaire
The Treaty offered British & French development of strategic weapon systems
like replacement of GAM-87 Skybolt by a french solid rocket, a new Bomber and VTOL development and join work on Navy programs.
However there was a catch on the Treaty, France had to gain British access to European community, something de Gaulle had opposed until now…
Next part on France
The year of two french Presidents.
After the failed coup d'état, President de Gaulle ended the Civil-war, in March, 1961 by signing the Évian accords, making Algeria a independent nation.
What followed was a series of deadly terrorist attacks by OAS, with it climax on september 8. 1961. President de Gaulle was on way to his Home, as OAS detonate a shrapnel bomb as president car past.
He survived, but need a long healing process in Hospital and was unable to govern for a year.
the 1958 constitution of the Fifth Republic was formal, The president of the french senate, become Interim Presidency of the Republic and that was in 1961,
Gaston Monnerville, literally a colorful politician: The grandson of a slave who grew up in French Guiana !
He was one of the most influential politicians in France in his time. Georges Pompidou had a hard time with him. The French media called it the "cohabitation" were President and prime minister are from divergent political parties.
The near success to kill the president let to biggest manhunt in history of France, the ministry of justice wanted to make an example, by destroying OAS once for all.
In the mean time another statesman make a big impression in France: West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer, he visit the hospitalize de Gaulle regularly.
Also Adenauer press statement that he was private visit not on Official state visit, the french and german public is astonish to hear that two were friendly since 1958!
On April 1962 Raoul Salan now leader of OAS, was arrested and executed for his crime in march 1963.
In october 1962 President De Gaulle returned to Politic, the events and interim presidency of Monnerville showed the people of France, that the Fifth Republic was stable and secure.
But de Gaulle was confronted with some programs Monnerville had signed as interim president
ESDO and it's accelerate convention, join venture program with Britain to build of Supersonic airliner and military aircraft and also Social program in france.
in 1963 de Gaulle makes history ,first with British French defense treaty in wake of GAM-87 Skybolt fiasco happened december 1962.
Then with the French and west Germany cooperation Treaty and de Gaulle triumph visit to Germany.
The British-French defense treaty was actually the brainchild of Gaston Monnerville after meetings with British prime minister Harold Macmillan. in wake of The Brezhnev Affaire
The Treaty offered British & French development of strategic weapon systems
like replacement of GAM-87 Skybolt by a french solid rocket, a new Bomber and VTOL development and join work on Navy programs.
However there was a catch on the Treaty, France had to gain British access to European community, something de Gaulle had opposed until now…
European Space Development Organization
European Space Development Organization
years 1961-1965
1959 as MBRM Blue Streak program was stopped, british politician had a problem, what to do with hardware and the engineers working on it ?
Building a Satellite launcher was evident, but they had a lack of money, so they looked for partners.
In the Commonwealth organization only Canada and Australia showed interest to cooperate, but on the european site they found a very interested partner.
France looked on Join Venture in Rocket hardware development, especial for there Military program. (after February 1961 this french program became a top Priority)
February 1961 in meeting of COSPAR the europeans came to agreement for join-venture ESDO
European Space Development Organization
ESDO is organize similar to CERN [1] and segmented in two units
European Space Research Organization: Scientific Research of space by probe or satellite
European Launcher Development Organization: R&D for European launch rocket and coordination of European Rocket already build.
with HQ installed in London.Founding Members are Britain, France, West Germany, follow in 1964 by Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, while Australia and Canada cooperate on ELDO
In the begining ESDO did not have it easy, the Europeans ministers tried to gain control over the organization, while other members like Belgium were in major political crisis [2].
This delay of the convention of COSPAR agreement, so France pushed for new agreement were Britain, France, West Germany complete the ESDO convention while the others follow later.
Lucky ESDO headquarters serve as "bureaucratic" buffer for meddling ministers, so ELDO/ERSO manage to organize them self.
ELDO faced problem to build a rocket out divergent parts from Europa. So they take as "prime contractor" for european rocket, Hawker Siddeley who built Blue Streak. [3]
Hawker Siddeley started the first test launch (F1) in june 1962 in Australia. follow with launch F2 to F4 until 1965, last two with Dummy upper stages.
During the time ELDO tested, a Canadian proposal for replace sounding rockets, by payload fired by artillery, even launching small satellites!
This High Altitude Research Project began in 1961 under ELDO management
[1] OTL as ELDO was found in 1961, they get active in 1964 do political problems and face meddling of European minister unit 1975.
while ESRO was left undisturbed by European minister
[2] in this TL, France has year of two president, Belgium major political crisis after death of U.N. general secretary by Belgium industrials about Congo
[3] The problem why Europa rocket never work, the lack of "prime contractor" who controlled the complete system integration.
European Space Development Organization
years 1961-1965
1959 as MBRM Blue Streak program was stopped, british politician had a problem, what to do with hardware and the engineers working on it ?
Building a Satellite launcher was evident, but they had a lack of money, so they looked for partners.
In the Commonwealth organization only Canada and Australia showed interest to cooperate, but on the european site they found a very interested partner.
France looked on Join Venture in Rocket hardware development, especial for there Military program. (after February 1961 this french program became a top Priority)
February 1961 in meeting of COSPAR the europeans came to agreement for join-venture ESDO
European Space Development Organization
ESDO is organize similar to CERN [1] and segmented in two units
European Space Research Organization: Scientific Research of space by probe or satellite
European Launcher Development Organization: R&D for European launch rocket and coordination of European Rocket already build.
with HQ installed in London.Founding Members are Britain, France, West Germany, follow in 1964 by Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, while Australia and Canada cooperate on ELDO
In the begining ESDO did not have it easy, the Europeans ministers tried to gain control over the organization, while other members like Belgium were in major political crisis [2].
This delay of the convention of COSPAR agreement, so France pushed for new agreement were Britain, France, West Germany complete the ESDO convention while the others follow later.
Lucky ESDO headquarters serve as "bureaucratic" buffer for meddling ministers, so ELDO/ERSO manage to organize them self.
ELDO faced problem to build a rocket out divergent parts from Europa. So they take as "prime contractor" for european rocket, Hawker Siddeley who built Blue Streak. [3]
Hawker Siddeley started the first test launch (F1) in june 1962 in Australia. follow with launch F2 to F4 until 1965, last two with Dummy upper stages.
During the time ELDO tested, a Canadian proposal for replace sounding rockets, by payload fired by artillery, even launching small satellites!
This High Altitude Research Project began in 1961 under ELDO management
[1] OTL as ELDO was found in 1961, they get active in 1964 do political problems and face meddling of European minister unit 1975.
while ESRO was left undisturbed by European minister
[2] in this TL, France has year of two president, Belgium major political crisis after death of U.N. general secretary by Belgium industrials about Congo
[3] The problem why Europa rocket never work, the lack of "prime contractor" who controlled the complete system integration.
I recently made an Orbiter space flight simulator video involving a space tourism flight with a fictional spaceplane (XR2 Ravenstar*) with All Nippon Airways livery on top of a fictional XB-70 variant (XL-70) in a completely reusable TSTO system.
*The regular XR2 is an SSTO that uses completely unrealistic fuels; this is a "realistic settings version".
Admittedly,
very good new Chapter, the Europeans are developing tech, faster,and very good quality for Space exploration . i wonder if the Moonbase will be a joint venture between ESDO/NASA. Cant hardly wait for the next chapters .
The American Year
Gemini 2 followed Gemini 1 on January 19th 1965 and set the stage for what was hoped to be the "American Year" of spaceflight. Unlike the previous flight Gemini 2 was suborbital rather than orbital and served as an unmanned hardware qualifications test of the heat sheild and reentry systems of Gemini. All hardware and ship systems remained in good operating conditions throughout the duration of flight. Upon return the Gemini was declared "Man-Rated" and ready for manned flight. The long wait following Mercury-Atlas-12 had ended.
NASA's response was quick and immediate. Gemini-3 rose from the immense fireball of it's launch pad on March 23rd 1965, just five days after Voskhod 2's successful EVA. However, while it did score an enormous comparative victory for the NASA and the engineers involved anyone could tell it was less than satisfactory. The mission lasted only four hours, conducted no EVA, had a crew size of just two, did no rendezvous or docking and was little more than a shakedown test of the hardware. Still, Gus Grissom and John Young attempted to add some humour to the mix. Hoping to avoid duplication of the experience with his Mercury flight Liberty Bell 7 in which the capsule sank after splashdown, Grissom named the Gemini 3 spacecraft Molly Brown, in a playful reference to the Broadway musical The Unsinkable Molly Brown. NASA management did not like this name, and asked him to change it. Grissom replied, "How about the Titanic?". The managers relented and allowed Grissom to keep Molly Brown, but this was the last Gemini flight they allowed the astronauts to name. Meanwhile John Young smuggled a Corned-Beef sandwich into space by hiding it in his suit pocket. Beyond the humorous antics of the flight it did prove the viability of the Gemini spacecraft in the face of mounting Soviet competition (having already flown two manned flights of their equivalent). NASA would need to act quick to catch up.
Gemini 4 was NASA's chance to do just that. Not only would it test the Gemini's ability to perform multiple day duration missions but would also (in response to Voskhod-2) test extra-vehicular activities and even rendezvous with it's own Titan II upper stage. All this combined would put NASA in a definite position to challenge to Soviet's space supremacy. Unfortunately the flight did not start out so well for Ed White and James McDivitt who found themselves unable to rendezvous with the Titan II upper stage left behind in LEO because of the lack of instrumentation, they couldn't tell whether they were 60 meters away or 600 meters away as they had to go entirely by eyesight estimates. The June 7th 1965 launch did not go wasted however as White gracefully performed the first American spacewalk. After a total of four days in LEO the astronauts safely splashed down and were recovered as heroes.
The next Gemini flight took off just two months later on August 21st as Gemini 5's Titan II engines roared to life on the launch pad. This time no EVA or rendezvous was planned but instead, an eight day duration mission. This was extremely important as eight days is the minimum time neccesary to reach the Moon and return to Earth. Unfortunately even this duration flight was no match to the 19 day duration flight of Vostok 10 that had taken place earlier in the year. It was also the first mission with an official mission patch. Although the crew (Gordon Cooper and Pete Conrad) had wanted it to read "Eight days or Bust" NASA decided against it as they thought it would distract from the experiments onboard and cause the public to think it was a failure if it didn't reach the eight day goal. The Gemini 5 Radar Evaluation Pod was just one of the various experiments performed during the mission, a small satellite deployed by the Gemini which then floated away before Gemini 5 caught up with it again as a test of the ability to rendezvous in space.
The real test of this would come when Gemini 6 performed the first Manned Docking with the Agena Docking Target. Unfortunately it's launch onboard an Atlas-Centaur didn't go quite to plan and the vehicle ended up exploding mid-flight. This resulted in a major shift in NASA's plans. Eventually it was decided to launch Gemini 7 first followed by Gemini 6A a few days later. The two would rendezvous in LEO, coming within a few feet of each other and then Lovell and Stafford both went EVA and trade places. It would be the first crew exchange in the history of Manned spaceflight. All this would come during Gemini 7's two week duration flight. It was originally hoped this would break the Soviet endurance record but the Vostok 10 flight finished that prospect, at the very least they could still mostly catch up. Indeed that plan was carried out almost entirely to plan between the days of December 15 and 28th (spending the first Christmas in Space), 1965. The Extra-Vehicular crew exchange was televised live to a eagerly watching holiday audience (although it was cut short due to technicle complications).
Gemini 2 followed Gemini 1 on January 19th 1965 and set the stage for what was hoped to be the "American Year" of spaceflight. Unlike the previous flight Gemini 2 was suborbital rather than orbital and served as an unmanned hardware qualifications test of the heat sheild and reentry systems of Gemini. All hardware and ship systems remained in good operating conditions throughout the duration of flight. Upon return the Gemini was declared "Man-Rated" and ready for manned flight. The long wait following Mercury-Atlas-12 had ended.
NASA's response was quick and immediate. Gemini-3 rose from the immense fireball of it's launch pad on March 23rd 1965, just five days after Voskhod 2's successful EVA. However, while it did score an enormous comparative victory for the NASA and the engineers involved anyone could tell it was less than satisfactory. The mission lasted only four hours, conducted no EVA, had a crew size of just two, did no rendezvous or docking and was little more than a shakedown test of the hardware. Still, Gus Grissom and John Young attempted to add some humour to the mix. Hoping to avoid duplication of the experience with his Mercury flight Liberty Bell 7 in which the capsule sank after splashdown, Grissom named the Gemini 3 spacecraft Molly Brown, in a playful reference to the Broadway musical The Unsinkable Molly Brown. NASA management did not like this name, and asked him to change it. Grissom replied, "How about the Titanic?". The managers relented and allowed Grissom to keep Molly Brown, but this was the last Gemini flight they allowed the astronauts to name. Meanwhile John Young smuggled a Corned-Beef sandwich into space by hiding it in his suit pocket. Beyond the humorous antics of the flight it did prove the viability of the Gemini spacecraft in the face of mounting Soviet competition (having already flown two manned flights of their equivalent). NASA would need to act quick to catch up.
Gemini 4 was NASA's chance to do just that. Not only would it test the Gemini's ability to perform multiple day duration missions but would also (in response to Voskhod-2) test extra-vehicular activities and even rendezvous with it's own Titan II upper stage. All this combined would put NASA in a definite position to challenge to Soviet's space supremacy. Unfortunately the flight did not start out so well for Ed White and James McDivitt who found themselves unable to rendezvous with the Titan II upper stage left behind in LEO because of the lack of instrumentation, they couldn't tell whether they were 60 meters away or 600 meters away as they had to go entirely by eyesight estimates. The June 7th 1965 launch did not go wasted however as White gracefully performed the first American spacewalk. After a total of four days in LEO the astronauts safely splashed down and were recovered as heroes.
The next Gemini flight took off just two months later on August 21st as Gemini 5's Titan II engines roared to life on the launch pad. This time no EVA or rendezvous was planned but instead, an eight day duration mission. This was extremely important as eight days is the minimum time neccesary to reach the Moon and return to Earth. Unfortunately even this duration flight was no match to the 19 day duration flight of Vostok 10 that had taken place earlier in the year. It was also the first mission with an official mission patch. Although the crew (Gordon Cooper and Pete Conrad) had wanted it to read "Eight days or Bust" NASA decided against it as they thought it would distract from the experiments onboard and cause the public to think it was a failure if it didn't reach the eight day goal. The Gemini 5 Radar Evaluation Pod was just one of the various experiments performed during the mission, a small satellite deployed by the Gemini which then floated away before Gemini 5 caught up with it again as a test of the ability to rendezvous in space.
The real test of this would come when Gemini 6 performed the first Manned Docking with the Agena Docking Target. Unfortunately it's launch onboard an Atlas-Centaur didn't go quite to plan and the vehicle ended up exploding mid-flight. This resulted in a major shift in NASA's plans. Eventually it was decided to launch Gemini 7 first followed by Gemini 6A a few days later. The two would rendezvous in LEO, coming within a few feet of each other and then Lovell and Stafford both went EVA and trade places. It would be the first crew exchange in the history of Manned spaceflight. All this would come during Gemini 7's two week duration flight. It was originally hoped this would break the Soviet endurance record but the Vostok 10 flight finished that prospect, at the very least they could still mostly catch up. Indeed that plan was carried out almost entirely to plan between the days of December 15 and 28th (spending the first Christmas in Space), 1965. The Extra-Vehicular crew exchange was televised live to a eagerly watching holiday audience (although it was cut short due to technicle complications).
Great new Chapter , finally, The US is having Success in space , and i hope soon the Moon will be reached by a Joint NASA/ESA , and the construction of a Moonbase . Cant hardly wait for the next chapters .