2001: A Space-Time Odyssey

[Michel Van]

How realistic would be this option ?

a RD-270 turbo pump feed 4x RD-253 combustion chamber

we had the NTO/UDMH analog to the RD-170 engine of Energia/Zenit
and we had advantage of fast R&D, Glushko can focus on RD-253 engine problems.
no extrem combustion chamber pressure of 281 bar (3,828 psi) but on 147 bar (2,132 psi) with option to rise the pressure to 169 bar (2,450 psi)
that push the thrust (sea level) to 6352 KN pro engine block

 

[Bahamut-255]

How realistic would be this option ?

a RD-270 turbo pump feed 4x RD-253 combustion chamber

we had the NTO/UDMH analog to the RD-170 engine of Energia/Zenit
and we had advantage of fast R&D, Glushko can focus on RD-253 engine problems.
no extrem combustion chamber pressure of 281 bar (3,828 psi) but on 147 bar (2,132 psi) with option to rise the pressure to 169 bar (2,450 psi)
that push the thrust (sea level) to 6352 KN pro engine block

Michel

The extreme combustion chamber pressure in the RD-270 was attained because it was known as a full-flow closed-cycled engine with two pre-burners, one fuel-rich, and the other oxidiser-rich, which would then send their respective fuel and oxidiser rich mixtures into the main chamber. This allowed a sea-level specific impulse of 301 seconds, which is the greatest SL Isp ever attained by a N2O4/UDMH rocket engine AFAIK.

The lower Isp of the RD-253 (285s) would reduce the LEO payload of the UR-700, which means more propellant is needed to get it back, which means a greater LV Mass on the Launch Pad, which means the engines need to be more powerful to get it moving, which means further redesign of the engines.

 

[Michel Van]

Michel

The extreme combustion chamber pressure in the RD-270 was attained because it was known as a full-flow closed-cycled engine with two pre-burners, one fuel-rich, and the other oxidiser-rich, which would then send their respective fuel and oxidiser rich mixtures into the main chamber. This allowed a sea-level specific impulse of 301 seconds, which is the greatest SL Isp ever attained by a N2O4/UDMH rocket engine AFAIK.

The lower Isp of the RD-253 (285s) would reduce the LEO payload of the UR-700, which means more propellant is needed to get it back, which means a greater LV Mass on the Launch Pad, which means the engines need to be more powerful to get it moving, which means further redesign of the engines.

Dam means we have to put ten RD.270 under the UR-700 !

i found this russian article about RD-270 engine

and THE HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT of RD-270

 

[SpaceGeek]

February 9, 1961 (Thursday) An IL-18 plane carrying Presidium of the Supreme Soviet, Leonid Brezhnev. At the time Brezhnev was acting as the nominal head of state of the Soviet Union, to the Guinea Republic for a state visit, was attacked by three French Vautour fighter jets. One of the Vautours fired tracer bullets at the plane intended as warning shots, which unfortunately hit the plane the killing all onboard in a fatal crash. The French Foreign Ministry deeply apologized, but said that Brezhnev's plane strayed into French Algerian airspace. A major political tensions had occured. The Soviet Union was calling this an act of war. Socialists and Communists within and outside the French Government cried murder, regarding it as a political assasination. Amid the controversy Prime Minister Michel Debré and French Minister of Defense Pierre Guillaumat resigned from office in Disgrace. Tensions between the Soviet Union and France where higher than they had ever been since the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, although that was quickly to change.

 

[e of pi]

Dam means we have to put ten RD.270 under the UR-700 !

There's 9 cores, so 10 engines just doesn't fit. The only option is to up-rate the RD-270 to fit. While this will probably take until about 1970 or 1972 to get ready, perhaps this can delay the project long enough to avoid full-scale tests (and failures) of the UR-700 contaminating most of Baikonur for months on end. You have to admit, examining the alternatives they'd come up with really makes the N-1, with all its flaws in design and development, seem like the best of their considered options.

February 9, 1961 (Thursday) An IL-18 plane carrying Presidium of the Supreme Soviet, Leonid Brezhnev. At the time Brezhnev was acting as the nominal head of state of the Soviet Union, to the Guinea Republic for a state visit, was attacked by three French Vautour fighter jets. One of the Vautours fired at the plane and after successive fire eventually brought the plane down, killing all onboard. The French Foreign Ministry deeply apologized, but said that Brezhnev's plane strayed into French Algerian airspace. A major political scandal had occured. Socialists and Communists within and outside the French Government cried murder, regarding it as a political assasination. Amid the controversy Prime Minister Michel Debré and French Minister of Defense Pierre Guillaumat resigned from office in Disgrace. Tensions between the Soviet Union and France where higher than they had ever been since the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, although that was quickly to change.

This raises a couple serious questions. First, isn't that an Anotov An-10 in the image, not an IL-18? Second, why was the reaction of the French, even if the aircraft had strayed into their airspace, ordering a clearly unarmed civilian aircraft to be shot down? Third, why isn't this treated as nearly an act of war rather than just a "political scandal"?

I'm curious where you're having this go, because it seems like there's very little way for this to go that would result in 'quickly changing' the tensions, short of just going to war.

 

[SpaceGeek]

There's 9 cores, so 10 engines just doesn't fit. The only option is to up-rate the RD-270 to fit. While this will probably take until about 1970 or 1972 to get ready, perhaps this can delay the project long enough to avoid full-scale tests (and failures) of the UR-700 contaminating most of Baikonur for months on end. You have to admit, examining the alternatives they'd come up with really makes the N-1, with all its flaws in design and development, seem like the best of their considered options.

This raises a couple serious questions. First, isn't that an Anotov An-10 in the image, not an IL-18? Second, why was the reaction of the French, even if the aircraft had strayed into their airspace, ordering a clearly unarmed civilian aircraft to be shot down? Third, why isn't this treated as nearly an act of war rather than just a "political scandal"?

I'm curious where you're having this go, because it seems like there's very little way for this to go that would result in 'quickly changing' the tensions, short of just going to war.

oops. Didn't realize that was the Anatov An-10. It was difficult to find a photo of the IL-18 that wasn't covered in a post Soviet Russian flag. I jumped on the first picture with a Soviet flag without checking on it. My mistake.

They were firing on it in OTL. I can't understand why. It did manage to land safely however.

Maybe I wasn't clear with my language. In retrospect "scandal" wasn't the right word. I did say that it was the "worst relations between the Soviet Union and France had been since the Bolshevik Revolution". You know, when France was intervening with the Allies to overthrow the Soviets in Russian Civil War. So yes, this really is war like tensions.

As for how the matter is resolved. You'l see. All in good time.

This might not seem like anything to do with Space but it will come back to that area and affect the rest of the TL in a powerful way.

 

[SpaceGeek]

The first of the Vostok 3KD (opposed to the previous two Vostok 3KE launches). The main difference was the addition of retro-rockets to allow the crew to land inside their capsule. This eliminated the need for ejector seats allowing a multi-person crew to be seated in the Vostok's (relatively roomy) descent module.

Vostok 3 was had another capability beyond even this interesting novelty. Mated to the side of the vehicle was an inflatable makeshift airlock for the purposes of Extra-vehicular activities (EVAs better known as "Spacewalks"). While Pavel Popovich waited inside Vladimir Komarov found his moment of inspirational awe outside as he floated gracefully about, his name would soon join the ranks of Gagarin and Glenn because of this. Beyond the sheer propaganda value of a multi-person mission and spacewalk the duo also engaged in long duration life science experiments. These were mostly aimed at understanding the human body's adaptation to weightlessness. The 2 crewmembers spent a record 4 days in space, neatly maxing out the Vostok's life support in the process. The temperatures had dropped to just 10 degrees celcius by the end of the flight and the service module failed to seperate as it had failed to do so on Vostok 1. Despite this the crew returned safely to Earth unscathed.

Vostok 4, crewed by Andrian Nikolayev, Boris Volynov and Valery Bykovsky launched that same day on another voyage of exploration for the Motherland. Not only did this mission become the first three person spaceflight but also achieved the distinction of approaching to within 6.5 km of Vostok 3 (Which had launched just 48 hours earlier) in an unguided flyby. Because of life support restraints the three Soviets were only able to remain in space for three days before they returned to Earth and took their role as heroes of the Soviet Union. But for that unique moment, when radio contact and television contact between the two ships was established there was the inescapable sense that these five men were on the verge of something remarkable in history. Gazing back at the Earth, there was no borders, no ideologies, no nations, just humans.

But Cold War rivalry continued none the less as the Space Race was becoming hotter and tenser than ever. In one dual-flight mission the USSR had set multi-day duration records, performed the world's first spacewalk, the world's first three person spaceflight. Because of the close proximity approaches of the two Vostoks in orbit many observers in America were convinced the Soviet Union had already mastered the technique of rendezvous between two spacecraft (not knowing it was a trick performed by their R-7 launch vehicles and that the Vostok was completely un maneuverable).

 

[Michel Van]

must be hard blow for Korolev
losing the Moon race against Chemolei, who is now protege of Khrushchev (because his son work at Chemolei OKB)

note on UR-700
what about combination of 9 RD-270 Engine and 4 RD-253 ?
3 booster got one and second stage the fourth.

 

[e of pi]

note on UR-700
what about combination of 9 RD-270 Engine and 4 RD-253 ?
3 booster got one and second stage the fourth.

Looking at the diagrams, I don't think there's room at the base of the rocket for the additional engines. There might be room for one on the second stage, but not on the boosters.

 

[Michel Van]

Looking at the diagrams, I don't think there's room at the base of the rocket for the additional engines. There might be room for one on the second stage, but not on the boosters.

I look on Matter in question

here drawing of the Engine in comparison you see that F-1 is huge against the RD-270, that's because it Combustion pressure is 3.72 higher as F-1.
note i draw the RD-270 after photos i keep the proportion right with high 490 cm mean the nozzle has diameter of 250 cm or 270 cm ø
yes the diameter are in MM but grammar autocorrection made CM

here UR-700 from unique point of view

the drawing based on one rare original technical drawing of UR-700 (source Anatoly Zak "RUSSIA IN SPACE" on page 207}
that view from below, the grey area are concrete support structure for UR-700, the Hexagonal structure are Supply for propellants and other system the UR-700 needed on Launch pad
i put six RD-253 engine on booster with tanks from UR-500 program (on the right to compare size)

 

[e of pi]

Hrm. I suppose one of the strap-on tanks on each booster would have to be oxidizer, with the other being fuel to keep the ratios right? That'd mean a ton more complex plumbing, and...I dunno, it's a pretty horrible kludge in my book. The whole UR-700/LK-700 plan is, really. It's like somebody sat down to make the N-1 look good by comparison, and succeeded.

 

[Michel Van]

Hrm. I suppose one of the strap-on tanks on each booster would have to be oxidizer, with the other being fuel to keep the ratios right? That'd mean a ton more complex plumbing, and...I dunno, it's a pretty horrible kludge in my book. The whole UR-700/LK-700 plan is, really. It's like somebody sat down to make the N-1 look good by comparison, and succeeded.

your absolutely right on that !

here my version of UR-700 for carry heavier LK-700 to the Moon
that look more on something, that escaped from Kerbal space program...

 

[SpaceGeek]

Mercury Rising

The Soviets were clearly in the lead as Yuri Gagarin orbited the Earth, Gherman Titov spent a full day in space and the Vostok 3 and 4 missions perfected EVA, mulit-person spaceflight and multi-day duration missions. All this was occuring while the United States still couldn't complete a single orbit or go five minutes before gravity pulled them back down. This was the paradigm for Alan Shepard's Mercury Redsone-3 and Mercury Redstone-4 . The May 5th and July 21st 1961 suborbital misssions were however, only a prelude to the real adventure NASA was about to embark upon.

John Glenn took the next spaceflight flying August 29th 1961. This was the last of the 15-minute suborbital spaceflights and was largely a training excersize for Glenn who would later go on to become the first American astronauts (and third overall) to reach Low Earth Orbit. The flight took a multitude of pictures of the outside enviroment although Glenn himself had difficulties onboard and saw the blackness of Space against the Earth only briefly. His Mercury Redstone-5 flight also experienced no problem with splashdown as Grissom had. With the now pathetic looking suborbital flights finished NASA was ready to move onto orbital spaceflight and eager to do so after Gherman Titov's daylong spaceflight.

The Americans however were quick challenge Vostok as John Glenn became the first American to Orbit the Earth. Friendship-7 (officially known as Mercury Atlas-6) lifted off from Cape Canaveral on February 20th 1962 carrying the brave Astronaut at it's helm. Orbiting the Earth three times Glenn spent just under five hours in space during which he travelled 121,794 km before landing in the pacific ocean. Previously NASA's human spaceflight career had included two Suborbital Mercury missions lasting just five minutes each. It was obviously a major step forward for NASA and the United States in the Space Race. It was largely about sending a message that the United States could compete with the Soviet Union in orbital spaceflight. It was also the first time that anybody flew into space twice.

In an attempt to gain experience in long duration spaceflight NASA launched a third orbital Mercury mission Mercury Atlas-8 following the Soviet's victorious dual Vostok mission. Walter M. Schirra (Jr) piloted the Mercury capsule on it's (American) record breaking endurance flight on October 3rd 1962. Unlike prior Mercury missions which were focused on scientific experiments this was a hardware endurance test to see if the Mercury could perform long duration missions beyond the three orbits of Glenn and Carpenter's flights. After six orbits and nine hours the Mercury capsule was still in perfect operating condition and landed within just half a mile from it's target. Despite such a flawless mission it hardly made up for the Soviets major lead in three person spaceflight, spacewalking, long duration spaceflight and perceived lead in Rendezvous manoeuvres. A new vehicle would be needed to bridge the gap between Mercury and Apollo, that vehicle would be the Gemini.

 

[SpaceGeek]

The final chapter in the Mercury program would be 1964. Leroy Gordon Cooper was selected as the commander for Mercury Atlas-9. The goal of Cooper's mission was to remain in orbit for a full day. During the flight Astronaut Cooper would eat, drink, and sleep in space. He would also take many medical measurements. All of these tasks were intended to study how man adapted to the space environment but also to atleast compete with the Russians in long duration spaceflight. Unfortunatly the May 15th 1963 flight (coming a full two years after Alan Shepard's first manned Mercury flight) was a near complete disaster. While all had gone well on the 18th orbit beyond that the situation began to become more and more serious as system after system malfunctioned and shutt down. Despite this he managed to manually land the ship just four miles away from target proving accurate manual landing was actually possible. At the conclusion of his mission debates raged over wether to continue the Mercury Program with one more three day spaceflight or whether to cancell it and focus on Gemini, America's follow up spaceflight. Eventually it was decided to forgo a three day spaceflight after the near-fatal Cooper flight and instead launch Mercury Atlas-10 as a single day spaceflight. Cooper's day and a half flight and NASA's single person missions were looking pretty pethetic now. The Vostok missions highlighted the Soviets long lead in the early Space Race partially leading to the decision to proceed with the Mercury Atlas-10, a now one day spaceflight (NASA considered any longer to be risking the crew).

Mercury Atlas-10 cleared the tower October 15th 1963 with a roar of applause from onlookers,Freedom II would be Alan Shepard's second Manned Spaceflight and only the second time an Astronaut ever flew into space twice (the other time being John Glenn's famous Earth Orbital flight). While Spehards first flight had been a fifteen minute suborbital test flight where he was little more than a passenger onboard this flight would see him perform 12 experiments over the coarse of 17 orbits aimed at understanding the effects of weightlessness and cosmic rays on the human body. He ate, drank and even slept in space (although he couldn't get more than six hours over the coarse of the flight). Unlike Cooper's flight Shepard experienced no major in flight malfunctions and was able to return at the push of a button. The pinpoint accuracy of the landing helped NASA planners prepare for the Gemini reenry and splashdown sequence. This would be Shepards last flight for many years as he was later diagnosed with Ménière's disease, a condition in which fluid pressure builds up in the inner ear.

Just under a month later on November 14th 1963 Guss Grissom took on his second spaceflight. Another daylong spaceflight it would follow up on the discoveries and results from the experiments made on the previous two spaceflights. Grissom named his vessel in the same manner Shepard did by calling it "Liberty Bell-2" hoping to have more luck with the landing than before. The Mission was slightly longer than Shepard's as NASA mission control approved one more orbit (the 18th) after he technically should have landed. This lone spaceflight was the penultimate in the Mercury series as work had already begun it's successor, Gemini.

However there was still one more flight to be had as Wally Schirra piloted Mercury Atlas-12. He was now the fourth person to fly into space twice and the only at the time to fly into orbit twice. His 18 orbit spaceflight was once again about gaining biological and medical data about the effects of "long term" spaceflight on the human body (it was anything but long term to the cosmonauts spending 10 days in space at that point). The multitude of experiments he had to perform made the mission very different from his previous Mercury Atlas-8 flight in 1962 (which was aimed really at just qualifying the Mercury hardware for day long flights). His return on December 19th 1963 brough the end of American spaceflight for well over a year as the year itself ended. Several hundred engineers were in turn, transfered to Gemini. While Gemini would be ready around 1965, who knows what the Soviet Union would do by then.

Korolev was now pouring all his time, energy and resources into the Vostok program with the cancellation of Soyuz proposal. What was not released to the world was that Vladimir Komarov's 1962 EVA was a near-disaster and that it would be some time before another Soviet spacewalk was attempted. Valentine Terrescova, Valentine Ponomaryova and Irina Solovyova would now pilot Vostok 6 on a single day spaceflight while Valery Bykovsky would pilot Vostok 5 on a single person eight day duration mission. Unfortunatly because of technicle issues with the R-7 and Buracratic mismanagement the missions was delayed by over a month to August 25th 1963. Launched just 48 hours apart they performed another "rendezvous" coming within just 4.5 km of each other's craft. Despite techicle issues with the toilet that made the flight "unpleasant" Vostok 5 proceeded according to plan and landed after eight days in LEO. As Soviet news bulletin's announced "that's longer than the time needed to travel to the Moon and back".

 

[Astronomo2010]

very good story so Far, will the US build a Space Station,and a Moonbase . And Massive spaceships to explore our Solar System, . Cant hardly wait for the next chapters .

 

[SpaceGeek]

1963 saw the drama of the Space Race flooding the news with rumors and speculation about the Soviet's possible next step while the public waited anxiously in anticipation.

Two years after Alan Shepard's first suborbital Mercury-Redstone flight and the United States was trailling further and further behind Russia. While the Vostok was performing multi-day long duration missions, spacewalks and three person flights as they flew in tandemn the Mercury was still performing multi-hour missions.
With success of Vostok flights, the USA must make a record braking space fight to beat the Soviets

Leroy Gordon Cooper was selected as the commander for that mission. The goal of Cooper's mission was to remain in orbit for a full day. During the flight Astronaut Cooper would eat, drink, and sleep in space. He would also take many medical measurements. All of these tasks were intended to study how man adapted to the space environment but also to atleast compete with the Russians in long duration spaceflight. Unfortunatly the May 15th 1963 flight (coming a full two years after Alan Shepard's first manned Mercury flight) was a near complete disaster. While all had gone well on the 18th orbit beyond that the situation began to become more and more serious as system after system malfunctioned and shutt down. Despite this he managed to manually land the ship just four miles away from target proving accurate manual landing was actually possible. At the conclusion of his mission debates raged over wether to continue the Mercury Program with one more three day spaceflight or whether to cancell it and focus on Gemini, America's follow up spaceflight.
Having barely survived his 35 hour spaceflight NASA concluded another would be extremly risky. However it was becoming more obvious that they needed to perform atleast a three day spaceflight to even be in the same league as the Soviets and so Mercury Atlas-10 was approved.

While the American had pushed their Mercury capsule to the limits to get beyond a single day flight the Soviets were only begining to utilize the versatile capabilities. Vostok 5 rocketed off the pad at Baikanour on July 14th 1963 after a month of delays. Bykofsky piloted the craft on a less than spectacular mission which would largely have been forgotten if it didn't set a new eight day duration record (double the record set on Vostok 3).As Soviet news bulletin's announced "that's longer than the time needed to travel to the Moon and back". The mission was near-flawless with the exception of the toilet malfunction and difficulty with the seperation of the service module on Re-entry.

Korolev had been training a second cosmonaut group for sometime notable in that they were composed entirely of women. He hoped to beat the Americans to another victory (albiet a non-technicle one) because intelligence had gathered that NASA was planning a manned women flight (correct at the time but later cancelled without the russians realizing it). Just 24 hours after launch the launch of Vostok 5 Valentina Terreshova, Valentina Ponomaryova and Irina Solovyova took their own place in history as the first women in space. In a new perspective of how Humanity was growing Bykofsky Leonov was able to watch the launch of Vostok 6 from his own small capsule. After one day of intensive bio-medical research on the female body's reaction to weightlessness the trio returned to Earth upon much fanfair.

This was the last straw. While Congress demanded that the Mercury Program conclude by the end of 1963, they also demanded that things be different for the Gemini program.

 

[e of pi]

I'm doubtful the US would try something like that. The people involved in Mercury and Gemini knew their hardware, and they were fairly risk-adverse. Continuing the mission to the point that you have them doing so (continuing the mission with a major lapse in cabin pressure, and more!?) would involve bypassing about four or five checkpoints where mission rules would demand an immediate abort and return. If they do that, it'd certainly be about what they deserve to lose Shepard, but it's an impossible break from the character of the people involved.

 

[SpaceGeek]

I'm doubtful the US would try something like that. The people involved in Mercury and Gemini knew their hardware, and they were fairly risk-adverse. Continuing the mission to the point that you have them doing so (continuing the mission with a major lapse in cabin pressure, and more!?) would involve bypassing about four or five checkpoints where mission rules would demand an immediate abort and return. If they do that, it'd certainly be about what they deserve to lose Shepard, but it's an impossible break from the character of the people involved.

You're doubtful that they would attempt to launch Mercury Atlas-10? They were considering that even in OTL and with the mounting Soviet successes, firsts and advances, I find it completly conceivable that they would attempt such a mission. I though it would be a stroke of realism to have the mission end in fatality. That said, your point about the cabin pressure is well taken. In retrospect there is no chance they would continue the flight with something like that. I've edited that out of the post. And for everybody else reading this Thread I really encourage discussion and criticism, don't be afraid to jump in.

Instead the post says "along with malfunctions of multiple systems"

 

[e of pi]

You're doubtful that they would attempt to launch Mercury Atlas-10? They were considering that even in OTL and with the mounting Soviet successes, firsts and advances, I find it completly conceivable that they would attempt such a mission.

No, it's perfectly likely that they would launch it, but with an explicit understanding that the mission was a push to the limits. They would, in fact, be primed for aborting short of the goal if the situation demanded it--and they were quite good about this.

The issue I take is simply that you have Shepard unilaterally deciding to remain in orbit, and then dying. That's not realism at all, it's is a massive change from his OTL character, a violation of the entire relationship between flight controllers and pilots that NASA had built, and something in the vicinity of an insult to a fine pilot. He would have aborted. That's my issue, not the specific mechanics of the failures before his decision to stay up. It's entirely out of character of the entire US program.

 

[Uli_Stoiber]

Is it even possible for an astronaut to manually override the command to deorbit? I guess, all the functions of Mercury were controllable by ground control?