“It is better to cure a sick man than to kill him.” A Northumbrian Survival Timeline
- Thread starter clem attlee
- Start date
I can't believe I only just found this thread. I read your 1812 thread a couple of years ago, but for some reason never jumped to this one. You've obviously put a lot of work into researching the similar time period and events in OTL to be able to make TTL so realistic. It all hangs together extremely well. I might not comment very often, but I will definitely be following this from now on.
Just one question. In the 1812 TL I seem to remember Edward threatening to reveal breaches of clerical celibacy, or something like that (my memory's going as I get on a bit). But in this TL it seems that Reformed Catholicism doesn't require celibacy any more. Did it get re-imposed in between? Are there some who are still required to be celibate (the friars, maybe)? Or am I just confused?
Okay, that's technically 3 questions, but they're all related...
ps Post 113 on page 6 about events in Spring 1531 is missing a threadmark.
Just one question. In the 1812 TL I seem to remember Edward threatening to reveal breaches of clerical celibacy, or something like that (my memory's going as I get on a bit). But in this TL it seems that Reformed Catholicism doesn't require celibacy any more. Did it get re-imposed in between? Are there some who are still required to be celibate (the friars, maybe)? Or am I just confused?
Okay, that's technically 3 questions, but they're all related...
ps Post 113 on page 6 about events in Spring 1531 is missing a threadmark.
Well, thank you for your very kind words. I was starting to give up to be honest because of the great paucity of comments here, the faithful RR excepted of course. I've added the missing threadmark. Your question is shrewd and has caught me out a little. You're quite correct in your recollection of the celibacy in Black Edward. I think the most natural thing to do is either to use the Orthodox model of priests being allowed to marry before they become priests, but not monks, or to have the spiritual revival of the seventeenth century under St Edward, the abdicated king who becomes Abbot of Ampleforth, return the clergy to celibacy. Of course Edward XIV's successor, Edward XV the Pious (1826-40), abdicated to become a parish priest after he was married, so the former seems more likely. What do you think? Which would you prefer?
By the way, I'm occasionally working on a rewrite of the beginning of Black Edward (the 1812 TL), specifically adding a chapter on his mother Siobhain O' Neill, Princess of Ulster.
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Summer 1532 in Anglia and Denmark
Anglia: Edward VI of Northumbria was alarmed at reports of the growth in power of Fr Gundobad in Man. The stream of settlers from Northumbria and Mercia increased and several villages were now almost deserted. Worse yet the preaching of the Ultra fanatic was becoming increasingly strident. Those who opposed him were facing public sanction from the Ultra zealots. When Fr Olaf of the Friars of St Ethelred landed in Ramsay, he was stoned and forced to take refuge back on his ship. The captain set sail before the rebel lords could seize the vessel. Edward prayed long and hard for guidance, but no easy solution presented itself. He began work on the great defence of Anglo-Catholicism that secured his reputation among scholars and theologians as a way of combatting this dangerous fanaticism.
Pan-Britonism began to flourish in all corners of the British Isles and rulers wrote more frequently to one another. Gwynedd founded The Festival of the Isles to promote music and literature. Armagh hosted the Ludi Insularum to promote athletic excellence and revive the great Hellenic traditions. Before long the increased political and religious links led to the foundation of the Council of the Isles which met in a different state periodically to promote peace and unity among rulers.
Denmark: Kristoph V received the Lutheran missionaries with warmth. His kingdom could ill afford to be on poor terms with the German Empire. Having seen the failure of the Holy League, the Danish king took the plunge and invited missionaries into his kingdom. His court and nobility were split. Many though saw the way that the wind was blowing and began to travel to Germany. Marital alliances followed. Kristoph himself, a middle-aged widower, took Margrethe to wife, Karl IV’s favourite daughter.
Pan-Britonism began to flourish in all corners of the British Isles and rulers wrote more frequently to one another. Gwynedd founded The Festival of the Isles to promote music and literature. Armagh hosted the Ludi Insularum to promote athletic excellence and revive the great Hellenic traditions. Before long the increased political and religious links led to the foundation of the Council of the Isles which met in a different state periodically to promote peace and unity among rulers.
Denmark: Kristoph V received the Lutheran missionaries with warmth. His kingdom could ill afford to be on poor terms with the German Empire. Having seen the failure of the Holy League, the Danish king took the plunge and invited missionaries into his kingdom. His court and nobility were split. Many though saw the way that the wind was blowing and began to travel to Germany. Marital alliances followed. Kristoph himself, a middle-aged widower, took Margrethe to wife, Karl IV’s favourite daughter.
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Like you, I think the former is more likely. OTL monks were always required to be celibate, but celibacy for the rest of the clergy was only imposed later, iirc (late 900s, 1000s?), so this could be viewed ITTL as a return to the values of the ancient church. I suspect the Friars of St Ethelred would follow the monastic system of celibates only, so you would have: celibate monks, celibate friars, celibate nuns*, celibate priests who did not marry before being ordained and priests who are ordained after marriage (and would not be permitted to marry again if their first wives died).
* Is there a female equivalent of the order of St. Ethelred? St. Adwen (Welsh), St. Brigid (Irish), St. Elured (Welsh) or St. Winifred (Welsh) perhaps, if it's something which develops from pan-Britonism. If it's more Anglian, then perhaps St. Hilda (Northumbria) or St. Æthelthryth (aka St. Audrey) (E. Anglia / Northumbria). I just think there would be a need for a British-Catholic order of nuns to 'counter' the pure Catholic orders, maybe. Just my tuppence-worth, though - feel free to ignore me.
Thank you for your very interesting response. I'm only too happy to have suggestions and I really liked your suggestions for Nuns. I'll incorporate them.
Another very busy week in RL and we are approaching the end of term. I flew to Michigan in mid week to serve on a doctoral thesis defence committee. God willing, inspiration will strike this evening and an update will follow.
Summer 1532 in Poland
Poland: The Count of Częstochowa lay gasping on his bed as the plague riddled his body. The Catholic army was devastated by the outbreak even as the Protestant defenders died in hundreds also. A night sortie devastated the Catholic supply train and destroyed some of the artillery. The Count of Częstochowa ordered his men to attack the next day even as he lay dying. It was a last-ditch effort. The defenders readily held their ground and inflicted heavy casualties on the attackers. For three days they battered the village and died. On the third day, the Count of Częstochowa died and his army retreated sothwards. For the moment at least Polish Protestantism was saved. Prince Piast led his men in a heartfelt rendition of A Mighty Fortress is our God. Plague savaged Poland that year and Lithuania burned with peasant revolts and aristocratic reprisals. Many began to wonder if God had turned his back on them.
I have reached a point at which I could stop this TL with an epilogue to round it out. What do readers want? I'll take non-response as a vote not to continue. My life is going to be exceptionally busy for the next several months, but I'm willing to continue with short periodic updates, probably about once a week, but only if requested.
RodentRevolution
Banned
Well I for one would be happy to see this continue but maybe you have other projects in mind, perhaps in the same TL/universe? It would be interesting to see more of what happened outside Europe in the same timeframe but that of course requires a whole level of research beyond this. Going the other direction maybe you might choose next to micro-focus on one particular location in Europe?
Either way this has been a fascinating journey and offers many possibilities for the future.
Like RR, I'd be very happy to read more but it's evident that even 'small' updates require significant research/time/effort, so if you do decide to bring this to a close, I will just raise a (virtual) glass to you to say thanks. Given the quality of your writing to this point, any epilogue you write is bound to be good. I don't have any suggestions for how you could take this forward, otherwise. (I must admit that it was Northumbria which caught my attention for the first one, as I live there; I don't usually read TLs in this time period, but your writing kept me hooked.) I look forward to whatever option you choose. 
All I ask is that you post a link in this thread to any new thread related to this TL - I don't want to miss the next one as I did this one!
All I ask is that you post a link in this thread to any new thread related to this TL - I don't want to miss the next one as I did this one!
Please continue but at a pace which suits you. RL has a habit of interfering but I'm interested in seeing where this leads (ie the bits between this and the Northumbria thread). No pressure
Thank you to those who have commented thus far: five in all. I gave this a private threshold of six to continue. I didn't expect to get to three to be honest. Is there one more person who would like me to continue?
I also would like you to continue. Honestly so many good timelines like yours seem to end in mid flow.
Please continue, I have bookmarked to check for update every day.
Please continue, I have bookmarked to check for update every day.
Well, to my surprise, I find that there is enough interest for me to continue in briefer weekly posts. Thanks to all who commented for their kind words. I'll try to write an update for later to-morrow.
Well, thank you. I've been very sleep-deprived and overwhelmed by the end of term so didn't get an update out last weekend, but will try to get something together for this weekend. I'm thinking of doing a summary post of several years. Thinking that the TL was going to end, I'd wrapped up a lot of details.