Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
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I am presuming that as the US is punching down the Shenandoah Valley that it is clearing out any Confederate troops in the area between the Valley and the West Virginia line.
Also, Does "during the last year of the war." indicate the previous year of the war or the year prior to the final ceasefire. If the former, what has been done in South Carolina. If the latter, does that indicate that North Carolina and Florida escaped significant damage or just that there weren't any trench type high casualty battles?
Also, Does "during the last year of the war." indicate the previous year of the war or the year prior to the final ceasefire. If the former, what has been done in South Carolina. If the latter, does that indicate that North Carolina and Florida escaped significant damage or just that there weren't any trench type high casualty battles?
Correct, though said line is a bit west of OTL’s since WV is at its original 1862/63 size (for now).
The latter, and yes
Not sure that WV will end up including all of its OTL land after the war, but would be *very* surprised if it didn't pickup the land that is the extra two counties of OTL. The question then is what is across the river from the Washington Monument, Maryland, West(?) Virginia or simply part of a remaining federal(?) district.
Hmm. North Carolina untouched, will be interesting to see if that places it at an advantage relative to other states (like Tennessee). Would love to see a map post war indicating areas where the US did significant damage.
Also curious as to whether the US advances before the end of the War divide the Confederacy in two (defined as functional control separating Richmond from New Orleans)
You know, I'm wondering if John Lejeune isn't being set up for future political leadership in the CSA after the war. If he manages to hold his position until the end of the war, with Richmond never actually falling, he's going to hold a great deal of prestige as the only general who never folded to the hated Yankee. He's also likely going to have a body of very loyal former(?) soldiers who would be more than happy to support him; and I could see a nasty little stabbed-in-the-back myth forming around him (good Ol Lejeune was holding the line until the cowardly boys in Richmond let him down.).
He could well end up as the Von Hindenberg of the post-war Confederacy: a war hero elected to bring order back to the country and failing in his efforts due to a combination of factors, until our hero Huey steps up to bring honor back to his shattered nation.
And that's assuming that the post-war chaos isn't so bad that Lejeune doesn't just take his men and march the few miles to Richmond after the war is done to secure power and try to restore order.
He could well end up as the Von Hindenberg of the post-war Confederacy: a war hero elected to bring order back to the country and failing in his efforts due to a combination of factors, until our hero Huey steps up to bring honor back to his shattered nation.
And that's assuming that the post-war chaos isn't so bad that Lejeune doesn't just take his men and march the few miles to Richmond after the war is done to secure power and try to restore order.
I don't expect Richmond *not* to fall, but the equation *vastly* changes for LeJeune if areas like Charlottesville are taken. At that point he will have three *completely* unhappy choices.
1) Have his armies be flanked,
2) extend his lines approxmately three-fold to keep the US out of Richmond
3) Pull all of his troops out of their Trenches and attempt to reestablish his lines *much* closer to Richmond.
Yes, LeJeune could try to cut off the Union troops that have punched south. But while trying to attack out of West Virginia would be difficult, I don't think that establishing *temporary* lines of supply through West Virginia would be that much of a problem for the US. (and that also gets at least part of LeJeune's troops out of their trenches.)
Given the victories in the Shenandoah Valley, the US just has to keep enough pressure near Fredericksburg to make sure that *all* of these are bad choices.
Also, I'm not convinced that a linkup between the Midlands front and the Eastern Front is a high priority. As long as someone screws up the rails that lead to Charlotte...
1) Have his armies be flanked,
2) extend his lines approxmately three-fold to keep the US out of Richmond
3) Pull all of his troops out of their Trenches and attempt to reestablish his lines *much* closer to Richmond.
Yes, LeJeune could try to cut off the Union troops that have punched south. But while trying to attack out of West Virginia would be difficult, I don't think that establishing *temporary* lines of supply through West Virginia would be that much of a problem for the US. (and that also gets at least part of LeJeune's troops out of their trenches.)
Given the victories in the Shenandoah Valley, the US just has to keep enough pressure near Fredericksburg to make sure that *all* of these are bad choices.
Also, I'm not convinced that a linkup between the Midlands front and the Eastern Front is a high priority. As long as someone screws up the rails that lead to Charlotte...
Watch this space (not a direct Hindenburg analogue but Lejeune's reputation will survive in better conditions than most of his peers)
Exactly. The US could also, theoretically, place enormous pressure if they are able to put forces on one of the Virginia Peninsulas and attack the Richmond/Petersburg/Lynchburg triangle from the west, too.
I'm re-reading parts of the timeline again (it helps that AH.com is one of the sites not blocked on my work browser) and I was wondering if/when the Confederate Senate switches over to direct elections. Would be pretty on-brand if the Senate went all the way to the modern day still being chosen by state legislatures, especially if said state legislatures were "influenced" by the paramilitary of whichever personalist caudillo was running the show in Richmond.
A quick glance of the ratification list of the 17th Amendment shows that other than NC, TX, AR, and TN the OTL states that were once Confederate either didn't ratify the amendment at all (FL, GA, MS, SC, VA) or did so relatively late in the game, after the two-thirds threshold had already been reached (LA, AL). So it isn't a huge stretch to imagine the CSA keeping the original system, especially as a way to contrast their "blessed, original" system in comparison to the "mongrolized" way the damnyankees elect their senators.
A quick glance of the ratification list of the 17th Amendment shows that other than NC, TX, AR, and TN the OTL states that were once Confederate either didn't ratify the amendment at all (FL, GA, MS, SC, VA) or did so relatively late in the game, after the two-thirds threshold had already been reached (LA, AL). So it isn't a huge stretch to imagine the CSA keeping the original system, especially as a way to contrast their "blessed, original" system in comparison to the "mongrolized" way the damnyankees elect their senators.
Burning Punjab
"...particular ire towards Taraknath Das, the Berkeley professor who spoke frequently in front of adoring crowds across the United States and corresponded with sympathizers across the world more or less openly, including Virendranath Chattopadhay at the University of Berlin who was himself a staunch Ghadarite and covertly led Indian fundraising for the Kabul-based activities of Raj Mahendra Pratap, who by late 1915 had come to be in charge of the smuggling operations bringing weapons through Persia and Russia to Afghanistan and from there across the Khyber and thus into Punjab; it is widely believed that without Pratap's herculean efforts, the Mutiny would have failed within days, and there is a reason why he is held in esteem as a Father of Independence among the hard core of Indian nationalists even today.
Das, as would befit an academic and lecturer, knew his audience and how to appeal to them. There was no shortage of racism in the United States, particularly on the West Coast towards Asians who were treated suspiciously as cultural interlopers, socialist agitators and most importantly a threat to White livelihoods, but the short, plump Bengali cleverly draped his lectures on the struggle for Indian independence and the noble cause of Indian nationalism in language drawing heavily upon the ideals of the American Revolution. "The Sikh laborer," he often noted, "has upon arriving on the North American shore discovered in his heart a passion for liberty and justice, and now stands as committed as any American to casting off the shackles of slavery." While the American academy often leaned conservative and counterrevolutionary in 1915, it was an ardently nationalist institution, deeply proud of its heritage as the "wellspring of freedom" and the idea of India following the United States into the breach of revolting against colonial masters in London a hundred and forty years after Lexington and Concord struck the right emotional chords. The lurid descriptions of conditions in India for the average Indian were well-timed, too; the United States, in the middle of the Great American War against the slaveholding Confederate States, was at a point in its history where it could possibly not have been less sympathetic to any connotation of slavery anywhere in the world. Das was feted as a genius - the "brown Benjamin Franklin" in one review - and the Ghadar Party, despite its often syndicalist outlook, hailed as standing at the forefront of the global fight for liberty. [1]
The United States government, crucially, was neutral on its outlook towards Ghadar, at least officially. The height of the Punjab Mutiny largely overlapped with the administration of Charles Hughes, a moderate liberal-conservative who while disinterested in socialist ideas was a fairly robust supporter of universal rights of political organization and speech, and thus while officials of his government declined to meet with Das or any other Ghadarites for that matter - they had their hands fairly full with the war, anyways - there was no concerted effort to respond to British demands that the Americans "do something" about Ghadar, demands that grew ever-louder as it became more and more clear in the autumn of 1915 that Kitchener's Indian Field Force would require considerably more resources to retake Punjab and put down the Mutiny. In fact, the Foreign Office's strident missives loaded with insinuations that the British had protected the Americans by demanding neutrality of shipping be honored by the Confederacy may have had the opposite effect: while the Hughes administration, particularly its chief diplomat Elihu Root, were thought of as strong Anglophiles, they deeply resented the idea of London dictating to them how they were to manage a domestic matter of men that had broken no laws of the United States or even the state of California, where Das maintained most of his advocacy, and pressure to curb Ghadar's growing strength and organization on the American West Coast was thus nonexistent or effectively slow-walked at a time when the Canadian government was cracking down aggressively on Ghadar's original heartland in Vancouver. [2]
It was thus that the intellectual and financial project of Indian nationalism, above and beyond Ghadar's relative focus on Punjab and Bengal, came to find its beating heart in the East India Association and Indian Independence League in the San Francisco area, or in Seattle, or in the mining camps full of Sikh immigrants across the West Coast, able to connect with sympathizers not just in Vancouver but in Singapore, in Europe, and even places as far flung as Kabul..."
- Burning Punjab
[1] While Das did IOTL enjoy a fair deal of support in the American academy for precisely these reasons, and Ghadar's intellectual project was a well-spring of intellectuals in San Francisco in particular at Stanford and Berkeley, once the Hindu-German Conspiracy came to emphasize the "German" part, suffice to say this was not the reception that men like Taraknath Das received in the US any longer
[2] This is what we call an "own-goal". Bear in mind Democrats, and some Liberals who need to keep an eye on such things, are already grumpy with Britain about the Irish Civil War
Das, as would befit an academic and lecturer, knew his audience and how to appeal to them. There was no shortage of racism in the United States, particularly on the West Coast towards Asians who were treated suspiciously as cultural interlopers, socialist agitators and most importantly a threat to White livelihoods, but the short, plump Bengali cleverly draped his lectures on the struggle for Indian independence and the noble cause of Indian nationalism in language drawing heavily upon the ideals of the American Revolution. "The Sikh laborer," he often noted, "has upon arriving on the North American shore discovered in his heart a passion for liberty and justice, and now stands as committed as any American to casting off the shackles of slavery." While the American academy often leaned conservative and counterrevolutionary in 1915, it was an ardently nationalist institution, deeply proud of its heritage as the "wellspring of freedom" and the idea of India following the United States into the breach of revolting against colonial masters in London a hundred and forty years after Lexington and Concord struck the right emotional chords. The lurid descriptions of conditions in India for the average Indian were well-timed, too; the United States, in the middle of the Great American War against the slaveholding Confederate States, was at a point in its history where it could possibly not have been less sympathetic to any connotation of slavery anywhere in the world. Das was feted as a genius - the "brown Benjamin Franklin" in one review - and the Ghadar Party, despite its often syndicalist outlook, hailed as standing at the forefront of the global fight for liberty. [1]
The United States government, crucially, was neutral on its outlook towards Ghadar, at least officially. The height of the Punjab Mutiny largely overlapped with the administration of Charles Hughes, a moderate liberal-conservative who while disinterested in socialist ideas was a fairly robust supporter of universal rights of political organization and speech, and thus while officials of his government declined to meet with Das or any other Ghadarites for that matter - they had their hands fairly full with the war, anyways - there was no concerted effort to respond to British demands that the Americans "do something" about Ghadar, demands that grew ever-louder as it became more and more clear in the autumn of 1915 that Kitchener's Indian Field Force would require considerably more resources to retake Punjab and put down the Mutiny. In fact, the Foreign Office's strident missives loaded with insinuations that the British had protected the Americans by demanding neutrality of shipping be honored by the Confederacy may have had the opposite effect: while the Hughes administration, particularly its chief diplomat Elihu Root, were thought of as strong Anglophiles, they deeply resented the idea of London dictating to them how they were to manage a domestic matter of men that had broken no laws of the United States or even the state of California, where Das maintained most of his advocacy, and pressure to curb Ghadar's growing strength and organization on the American West Coast was thus nonexistent or effectively slow-walked at a time when the Canadian government was cracking down aggressively on Ghadar's original heartland in Vancouver. [2]
It was thus that the intellectual and financial project of Indian nationalism, above and beyond Ghadar's relative focus on Punjab and Bengal, came to find its beating heart in the East India Association and Indian Independence League in the San Francisco area, or in Seattle, or in the mining camps full of Sikh immigrants across the West Coast, able to connect with sympathizers not just in Vancouver but in Singapore, in Europe, and even places as far flung as Kabul..."
- Burning Punjab
[1] While Das did IOTL enjoy a fair deal of support in the American academy for precisely these reasons, and Ghadar's intellectual project was a well-spring of intellectuals in San Francisco in particular at Stanford and Berkeley, once the Hindu-German Conspiracy came to emphasize the "German" part, suffice to say this was not the reception that men like Taraknath Das received in the US any longer
[2] This is what we call an "own-goal". Bear in mind Democrats, and some Liberals who need to keep an eye on such things, are already grumpy with Britain about the Irish Civil War
More or less the idea. As you said, it’s on brand for a variety of reasons, and also creates more opportunity for fun clusterfucks to write down the line
Now, you may see the pre-direct election practice of a statewide “primary” that the legislature picks from in a few places, on a state by state basis, but in terms of a constitutional amendment to end direct elections, not a chance.
Was hoping to see more of the frontline action. Seems like the revolt is much stronger than anticipated. Still great update. With Mahendra Pratap being father of independence, I wonder what happens to Gandhi ittl. How is Bose reacting and doing in midst of all this?
What is going on in Persia and Indonesia and Malaya?
ITYM from the east. I don't think we've seen anything on the status of the USN and the CSN in the Chesapeake Bay. While I'm sure enough time has passed to restore at least temporary berths at Baltimore, I don't know how much information we've gotten on whether the C&D canal entrance has been cleared. I believe that the Confederacy would be able to keep the main ships out of the entrance to the Chesapeake and building opposing batteries at the southern tip of the (OTL) Delmarva Peninsula would be a great deal of effort.
Looking at the southern states votes on the 16th-22st amendments. It appears that for
the 16th (taxes), they were mildly more in favor of the amendment than the country at large,
the 17th (direct election), significantly more *against*,
the 18th (prohibition) significantly more in *favor*,
the 19th (women's right to vote), significantly more *against*,
the 20th (earlier inauguration), mildly more in favor,
the 21st (removal of prohibition), somewhat more against
the 22nd (limitations to two terms), somewhat more against. (which considering the Confederacy wrote a one term limit into its constitution, I'm not sure that's relevant)
So, for the CSA (if that goes the way OTL does, has an income tax, has prohibition (through the modern day???), still has indirect election of senators and might be well into Long's time in office before women can vote).
Somehow the idea of Miami being a (dirty) tourist city that is just as bad as New Orleans in regards to Prohibition (in this case Cuban Rum) appeans to me.
Of course the issue with the 23rd (DC voting) is going to be completely different, but if the Federal Government carves a piece out of Philadelphia for a new Federal District, there will be *something* allowing for representation in Congress for those people...
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So, a weird thought has struck me - what is the usual strength of the Confederate Dollar in comparison to the USD and Pound Sterling? I'm sure it's pretty much in the tank right now, with the war destroying the Confederate economy - but whats the general parity during more normal times?
This is a genuinely interesting question - we've seen how the Union is handling the prohibition movement (where we'll see state-level bans but no national prohibition like OTL), but not really of the South, which, as you point out, was IOTL one of the most pro-prohibition centers of the country (in fact, Florida is where the only Prohibitionist governor was elected IIRC, though the dynamics of that race were more where the Prohibition Party was a vehicle to enable a fight within the FL Democratic Party than an actual Prohibitionist victory in and of itself). Really leaves the question of where, say, Vardaman, Martin, President Smith, Secretary Smith, Tillman, and others lie on the issue.
Based on the wikibox thread, it seems like the answer is "Not great™".
I remember from the first thread yo said that Mason Patrick is going to come back at some stage because you wanted Pershing vs Patrick, .... Is that still the plan?
Yes. He was moved to a command coordinating military (logistics mostly) operations out of Atlanta, after all…
We’ll get more India action soon
Dunno what exchange rates were like in the 1910s, but in present day it’s very weak against the US dollar
Prohibition in the Confederacy is something I’ll have to cover. Especially with what I have in mind long term for Miami Beach
Much of the Southern Prohibitionist strength came from racial anomosity (shocker, I know). There were certainly religious and reformist tendencies to it, but a large part of its general strength seemed to flow out of fears of alcohol making the African-American popular harder to control (and, of course, be productive share croppers). This would have been less of an issue prior to the war where slavery was still the law of the land, and where alcohol might have had the opposite reputation (it kept the slaves happy and less likely to rebel - or so they thought). I suspect the Southron Prohibition gets a major boost post-war as an effort to strike rights away from freedmen and keep some level of control over them. This will be coupled with a regenerative argument about restoring the purity of Southern culture; because I had a terrible feeling that alcohalism is going to be RIFE amongst the veterans of the GAW.
I see the West Coast being the financial and weapon source for the Indian Independence struggle.
I'm sure *something* in the south didn't come out of racial animosity.... And when I find it, I'll let you know.
Seriously, with that, I'm wondering what happens to Marijuana in the United States and the Confederate States. I've heard various stories on whether the Tobacco industry helped with the banning of it, if so, the USA is more likely to allow it and the CSA less, but I'm not sure. (Would be interesting if the deliberate effort to ban/put high tarrifs prior to the war/reduction in availability of tobacco during the war led to greater use of Marijuana. (Getting things from a Farmer on the Maryland Eastern Shore of Delaware trying to decide whether to grow Tobacco or Marijuana could be fun.
)