What happened to Takuan Sōhō? Does his thoughts on zen practice in war more popular? Is there any change in case of ingen?
Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun
- Thread starter Ambassador Huntsman
- Start date
The Ming are gonna die eventually and when they do nothing stops Japan taking full control of the Ryukyu.
Yeah I totally agree China when weak always neglects it's navy so it'd not care that a bunch of islands got snatched by the Japanese. Also that the ryukyus are an en route to Beiritou so preventing Chinese influence from reaching the ryukyus is a must.
Precisely. There’s no point controlling Taiwan if they don’t even control Senkaku
Chapter 30: Nobunori’s New and Proper Governance, The Calm Before the Storm
Chapter 30: Nobunori’s New and Proper Governance, The Calm Before the Storm
Nobutomo’s coup in 1619 not only swept Saito Yoshioki out of power but reduced the power of hereditary Oda retainers in Azuchi, with Nobunori taking more direct control of the government and Oda clan members and regional daimyo gaining greater influence over political affairs. Trade expansionist-minded Oda retainers were also promoted to an extent, most notably Mori Naritoshi who was appointed to the Sangi-shu and became one of the leading figures of the new administration. The position of inspector-general, while still important, would see its powers and influence considerably reduced to prevent another political usurpation from happening again. Additionally, under Yoshioki’s tyranny, while the realm had continued prospering and expanding economically, control over its peripheries and foreign policy needed much reinvigorating due to neglect and lack of interest. The next few years would see an effort to make up for the lost years.
Firstly, Nobunori promoted Ikeda Masatora (池田政虎), the 29 year old second son of the late Ikeda Terumasa, to the foreign affairs magistracy from his old position as Iriebashi urban magistrate. Being a full-time resident of Bireitou from a young age and fluent in Chinese, Masatora was naturally well-informed on the political and economic dynamics of east and southeast Asia and set a new course in Azuchi diplomacy. Under the advice of the shrewd magistrate, Nobunori sent embassies to Batavia, Manila, Ayutthaya, Dong Kinh, and Banda Aceh in the 1620s to establish firmer relations with European and Southeast Asian powers, and Azuchi even managed to organize a mission to Goa in 1626, marking Japan’s first serious interaction with the Indian subcontinent. The realm was also able to navigate difficult crises overseas, such as the Dutch-Ming war over the Penghu Islands between 1622 and 1624, damages caused by roaming samurai mercenaries in various conflicts, and tensions between Japan and Siam after the murder of Si Saowaphak in 1624 by anti-Japanese nobles in favor of his 13 year old son Athittayawong. Referring to Nobuhide the Younger’s writings, the various Nihonmachis throughout Southeast Asia were recognized politically as autonomous outposts of the realm and began to receive financial support, although arrangements differed by city based on size and relations with the on-site foreign government. Nobunori’s new foreign policy improved relations with the Iberian powers and especially Dai Viet, although in the long run the former never fully trusted the Japanese again and the Netherlands began to displace them as the pre-eminent European presence in the realm.
Firstly, Nobunori promoted Ikeda Masatora (池田政虎), the 29 year old second son of the late Ikeda Terumasa, to the foreign affairs magistracy from his old position as Iriebashi urban magistrate. Being a full-time resident of Bireitou from a young age and fluent in Chinese, Masatora was naturally well-informed on the political and economic dynamics of east and southeast Asia and set a new course in Azuchi diplomacy. Under the advice of the shrewd magistrate, Nobunori sent embassies to Batavia, Manila, Ayutthaya, Dong Kinh, and Banda Aceh in the 1620s to establish firmer relations with European and Southeast Asian powers, and Azuchi even managed to organize a mission to Goa in 1626, marking Japan’s first serious interaction with the Indian subcontinent. The realm was also able to navigate difficult crises overseas, such as the Dutch-Ming war over the Penghu Islands between 1622 and 1624, damages caused by roaming samurai mercenaries in various conflicts, and tensions between Japan and Siam after the murder of Si Saowaphak in 1624 by anti-Japanese nobles in favor of his 13 year old son Athittayawong. Referring to Nobuhide the Younger’s writings, the various Nihonmachis throughout Southeast Asia were recognized politically as autonomous outposts of the realm and began to receive financial support, although arrangements differed by city based on size and relations with the on-site foreign government. Nobunori’s new foreign policy improved relations with the Iberian powers and especially Dai Viet, although in the long run the former never fully trusted the Japanese again and the Netherlands began to displace them as the pre-eminent European presence in the realm.
Portrait of Ikeda Masatora
The Sangi-shu was also permanently expanded in size from 13-14 to a firm 15 members with the appointments of Kamakura Tandai Oda Toshimasa and Bireitou governor Oda Tadataka, both strengthening both the power of the Oda clan in political affairs and prestige and reasserting Azuchi influence over the Kanto region and Bireitou respectively. Closer to home, Nobunori also arranged a marriage between his eldest daughter Takahime (尊姫) and the emperor, strengthening Oda power in the imperial court on top of his second son Tomoshige becoming the heir of the Konoe family.
The change in governance also benefited the operations of the Azuchi navy, now headed by naval magistrate Kuki Moritaka (九鬼守隆). Saito Yoshioki’s lack of interest in trade resulted in temporary stagnation in naval expansion and activity, but this was quickly reversed after 1619. Organizationally, the Azuchi navy integrated the Kanto navy as its 5th sub-branch based from Shimoda (下田) alongside those in Iriebashi, Nagasaki, Kanazawa (金沢), and Hakodate as well as the central fleet in Hyogo (兵庫).
The change in governance also benefited the operations of the Azuchi navy, now headed by naval magistrate Kuki Moritaka (九鬼守隆). Saito Yoshioki’s lack of interest in trade resulted in temporary stagnation in naval expansion and activity, but this was quickly reversed after 1619. Organizationally, the Azuchi navy integrated the Kanto navy as its 5th sub-branch based from Shimoda (下田) alongside those in Iriebashi, Nagasaki, Kanazawa (金沢), and Hakodate as well as the central fleet in Hyogo (兵庫).
Drawing of Shimoda from the early 1600s
Despite incidents and diplomatic tension with the Iberian powers, the Kirishitan population grew to around 10% in the 1620s, with the heaviest concentrations in northern Kyushu, and the Kinki region. Native Japanese priests, particularly outside of Kyushu, progressively began to distance themselves from the authority of European Jesuits and Franciscans due to the latter’s damaged reputation over the preceding decades, although no break on doctrine occurred. Knowledge of other non-Japanese religions began to spread in the realm, particularly through the various embassies in the 1620s. In one instance, Theravada Buddhist monks accompanied the Ayutthaya embassy on their journey back to Japan and subsequently took a tour of Kyoto’s temples and shrines and conversed with various Buddhist priests on their differing interpretations and applications of Gautama Buddha’s teachings. These interactions along with the successful embassy to Goa led to a new Japanese tradition of Buddhist pilgrimage to sites in India and Southeast Asia.
A Siamese statue of the Buddha gifted to Myoushin-ji Temple (妙心寺) in 1622
The aftermath of the 1619 coup was marked by political revitalization on the domestic and international fronts. However, nothing could prevent one particular incident. On November 1626, while the Goa embassy was sailing back to Sakai, Tadataka’s adopted son Tadahide (織田忠秀) [1], who was in Iriebashi, received an urgent messenger with shocking and troubling news: a Spanish expedition had begun construction of a coastal fortress in southwestern Bireitou.
Crisis loomed large in the distance.
[1]: Tadahide is actually Oda Nobuhide’s biological son who was only 6 when his father died and was thus deemed too young to be appointed governor of the island. He is, however, Tadataka’s heir as Tadataka has no sons.
Crisis loomed large in the distance.
[1]: Tadahide is actually Oda Nobuhide’s biological son who was only 6 when his father died and was thus deemed too young to be appointed governor of the island. He is, however, Tadataka’s heir as Tadataka has no sons.
Last edited:
Agreed.
And while it’d be a challenge…Spain would be operating at a significant disadvantage. Very far from the homeland, takes months to get anywhere…if he was able to take out that outpost and secure any other ports they have in the region, he’d have months to prepare for the arrival of a major force.
A marriage between the Emperor and Nobunori’s daughter means the next emperor will be of the Oda clan not the Yamato clan. Could this be the end of the Yamato?
Also I wonder if the Dutch will help out the Japanese if this upcoming Bireitou crisis leads to a Spanish-Japanese War?
Will mahabodhi and sarnath restored? Any will there be any missionar activities in india?
Any chances of mahasangati in japan with Mahayana and theravada in attendance?
Any chances of mahasangati in japan with Mahayana and theravada in attendance?
Yeah, I don't think the Japanese are going to put up with a Spanish presence in Bireitou.
Yeah I agree totally. Japan will at most allow ships there but nothing more.
Speaking of religion how would Japanese culture affect Christianity? Like would Japanese gods become saints and Japanese style statues referencing saints be made and be known of in Europe? Also considering that the SEA would be influenced by Japan would parts of SEA just never convert into Islam?
I also hope Japan fully switches to hiragana in the 18-19th century.
Nah - The Fujiwara did it, as well as the Tokugawa IOTL, and it still changed nothing to the fact that the the dynastic lineage belonged to that of the Yamato line.
That said - taking over the Konoe family meant that the Oda is poised to have a presence in the court nobility.
Also - I wonder what will be the prefix for Japan will be, like Sino- is for China and Anglo- for Britain.
Last edited:
IOTL many Kirishitans believed the kami were angels, and incorporated other aspects of Shinto and Buddhism into their faith IIRC.
No, Japanese trace descent patrilineally. The Emperor marrying Nobunori's daughter gives the Imperial and Shogun families marriage ties but preserves the agnatic descent of the Yamato.
Barring major changes, restorations will happen but major changes in Japanese Buddhism will take a few decades if they were to happen.
Because Japan doesn't have a religious agenda, it would take the confluence of multiple Buddhist powers to really shake up the Islamization of Southeast Asia, if anything Japan's religious makeup will be affected more. The evolution of Japanese Christianity is less determined at this point because 1. Christianity is still growing without much restriction, and 2. Jesuits and Franciscans are still influential enough to not force a break in doctrine.
I don't foresee Japan fully dumping hiragana, maybe a hiragana-katakana dual system but it would take a lot for kanji to just go away.
Will fix, thanks for the heads up.
For the purposes of the timeline, Japan and Japanese are the terms to avoid confusion but ITTL both Nipponese and Japanese are contenders for a modern day term.
A lot of that was because of the isolation of Kakure Kirishitans from the rest of Christendom, that particular sect of "Catholics" diverged significantly from Christianity.
Chapter 31: Nurhaci Strikes Back
Chapter 31: Nurhaci Strikes Back
By 1610, Ming Emperor Wanli had withdrawn from government, ceasing to attend imperial council meetings. His place was largely taken by Crown Prince Zhu Changxun, although the Emperor’s absence at many ceremonies and court rituals weakened the power and legitimacy of the government. Nevertheless, the imperial court largely managed its affairs under the Crown Prince’s leadership for 10 years before Emperor Wanli finally died. Zhu Changxun inherited the Dragon Throne at the age of 34, henceforth known as Emperor Zhenchun.
Zhenchun immediately addressed a resurgent external threat: the Jurchens, now the Jin khanate. Some tribes had defected from Nurhaci’s grasp in the aftermath of the Battle of the Suri River but within a few years he had mostly reversed these losses. The key to his subsequent success was his Eight Banners army, which incorporated Jurchen, Han Chinese, and Mongol elements into a cohesive military force. In 1616, he proclaimed himself khan and elevated his federation, now consisting of most Jurchens and a handful of Han Chinese defectors, to khanate status, referred by historians as the Later Jin khanate. In 1617, conflict broke out between Nurhaci and the Ming-backed Northern Yuan, led by the ambitious Ligdan Khan who sought to reinvigorate his fractious Mongol realm. In this war, Nurhaci’s experience as a cunning commander and political player won out as he earned victory after victory and swayed many eastern tumens to his side. Upon the conclusion of this war, the Jurchens once again breathed upon the neck of Ming China.
Zhenchun immediately addressed a resurgent external threat: the Jurchens, now the Jin khanate. Some tribes had defected from Nurhaci’s grasp in the aftermath of the Battle of the Suri River but within a few years he had mostly reversed these losses. The key to his subsequent success was his Eight Banners army, which incorporated Jurchen, Han Chinese, and Mongol elements into a cohesive military force. In 1616, he proclaimed himself khan and elevated his federation, now consisting of most Jurchens and a handful of Han Chinese defectors, to khanate status, referred by historians as the Later Jin khanate. In 1617, conflict broke out between Nurhaci and the Ming-backed Northern Yuan, led by the ambitious Ligdan Khan who sought to reinvigorate his fractious Mongol realm. In this war, Nurhaci’s experience as a cunning commander and political player won out as he earned victory after victory and swayed many eastern tumens to his side. Upon the conclusion of this war, the Jurchens once again breathed upon the neck of Ming China.
Bronze statue of Nurhaci
When the last independent Jurchen tribe, the Yehe, became Nurhaci’s next target, it became clear that the Ming needed to deal with the Jin directly. In 1621, Emperor Zhenchun assembled an army of 100,000 under the command of Sun Chengzong and sent messengers to Joseon, the Northern Yuan, and the Yehe to aid the Ming effort. Ligdan Khan, eager to get revenge, committed 20,000 Yuan horse archers to the campaign while Joseon king Gwanghaegun sent a force of 20,000, with the Yehe committing their entire force to preserve their independence. A confident Nurhaci, commanding an army of 75,000 troops, devised a plan to prevent the different contingents from coalescing and pick off the smaller ones before facing the Ming. He would personally march into Joseon with his entire force.
Knowing he stood no chance against the old steppe chieftain, Hong-rip instead split his army into smaller, more mobile contingents and scattered them in fortresses and forested areas to skirmish the approaching Jin army. Nurhaci crossed the Yalu River and quickly devastated the Joseon countryside. However, his army was continuously harassed by Hong-rip’s soldiers who employed hit-and-run and scorched earth tactics to pick off Jin troops and deprive them of supplies to great effect. When Nurhaci attempted a siege on a nearby fortress, the reinforced garrison countered with arquebus, cannon fire, and night raids into the Jin camp. The situation became unbearable and when news of Ming, Yehe, and Mongol forces coalescing to the north came, Nurhaci retreated, satisfied that although unbroken, Joseon forces were too scattered to reconfigure fast enough and would be forced to deal with the destruction his army caused in the country.
Sun Chengzong’s army of 130,000 Han Chinese, Yehe Jurchens, and Mongols met Nurhaci’s weakened army of 65,000 at the Battle of Sarhu. Jin cavalry manned the entire front line with infantry in the back while Chengzong placed arquebusiers and Ming infantry in the center, positioning Mongol cavalry on the left and Yehe cavalry on the right with Chinese infantry and cavalry support troops on both wings and artillery in the back. The battle began with the Jin horse archers sprinting back and forth shooting arrows at the coalition army in an attempt to lead them into feigned retreats across the board. The Ming center, the most disciplined portion of Chengzong’s army steadily marched forwards, only stopping to fire matchlock volleys, while the Yehe and Mongol cavalry eventually fell for Nurhaci’s trap and rode towards the retreating Jin, who immediately turned back and charged. While the Yehe were immediately routed, the Mongols held on, allowing Chengzong to divert Ming reserves to the collapsing left wing. When it seemed after an hour that the Mongols would break, Nurhaci ordered a general charge against the Ming center but miscalculated its strength and numbers and the Jin were overwhelmed with arquebus and cannon fire, triggering a disorganized retreat. This allowed troops in the center to wheel around and push back the Jin left wing, eventually forcing them to retreat as well. Sensing danger, the Jin cavalry on the right also retreated in good order. For the second and last time, Nurhaci failed to defeat the might of Ming China on the battlefield.
Knowing he stood no chance against the old steppe chieftain, Hong-rip instead split his army into smaller, more mobile contingents and scattered them in fortresses and forested areas to skirmish the approaching Jin army. Nurhaci crossed the Yalu River and quickly devastated the Joseon countryside. However, his army was continuously harassed by Hong-rip’s soldiers who employed hit-and-run and scorched earth tactics to pick off Jin troops and deprive them of supplies to great effect. When Nurhaci attempted a siege on a nearby fortress, the reinforced garrison countered with arquebus, cannon fire, and night raids into the Jin camp. The situation became unbearable and when news of Ming, Yehe, and Mongol forces coalescing to the north came, Nurhaci retreated, satisfied that although unbroken, Joseon forces were too scattered to reconfigure fast enough and would be forced to deal with the destruction his army caused in the country.
Sun Chengzong’s army of 130,000 Han Chinese, Yehe Jurchens, and Mongols met Nurhaci’s weakened army of 65,000 at the Battle of Sarhu. Jin cavalry manned the entire front line with infantry in the back while Chengzong placed arquebusiers and Ming infantry in the center, positioning Mongol cavalry on the left and Yehe cavalry on the right with Chinese infantry and cavalry support troops on both wings and artillery in the back. The battle began with the Jin horse archers sprinting back and forth shooting arrows at the coalition army in an attempt to lead them into feigned retreats across the board. The Ming center, the most disciplined portion of Chengzong’s army steadily marched forwards, only stopping to fire matchlock volleys, while the Yehe and Mongol cavalry eventually fell for Nurhaci’s trap and rode towards the retreating Jin, who immediately turned back and charged. While the Yehe were immediately routed, the Mongols held on, allowing Chengzong to divert Ming reserves to the collapsing left wing. When it seemed after an hour that the Mongols would break, Nurhaci ordered a general charge against the Ming center but miscalculated its strength and numbers and the Jin were overwhelmed with arquebus and cannon fire, triggering a disorganized retreat. This allowed troops in the center to wheel around and push back the Jin left wing, eventually forcing them to retreat as well. Sensing danger, the Jin cavalry on the right also retreated in good order. For the second and last time, Nurhaci failed to defeat the might of Ming China on the battlefield.
Brown=Jin, Yellow=Ming, Green=Mongol, Blue=Yehe
After the battle, Emperor Zhenchun began planning a large expedition to subjugate Jurchen lands just north of the Great Wall but was distracted by Dutch activities in the south, first the assault on Macau and then outright war over the Penghu archipelago between 1622 and 1624. He also contended with several peasant revolts that broke out at the end of the decade. Regardless, Jurchen power had been broken and the Jin khanate would decline after Nurhaci’s death in 1626. With the Northern Yuan still weakened after years of war, the Ming frontier in the north was secure for now.
Last edited: